What would the employment potential be like for someone with a Bachelor's Degree in Numismatics?
CoinPhysicist
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Surely you have all seen the "Let's design the four year course requirements to receive a BS in numismatics." thread. Linked here: https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/1030237/lets-design-the-four-year-course-requirements-to-receive-a-bs-in-numismatics/p1
Context: Employment potential should be an important part of designing a college major in 2019 (almost 2020). As someone who graduated within the last 10 years, I know that college now costs more than ever and students are taking out more student loan debt than ever before. I've seen people make beyond terrible decisions setting up a lifetime of hardship with their college educations. Life gets really hard when your student loan debt exceeds your annual income after graduating.
The question is: What would the employment potential be like for someone with a Bachelor's degree in Numismatics?
Honest questions because I don't know and I am curious - Is Heritage, Stacks, Legend, GC, etc looking to hire? Is PCGC / NGC / CAC looking for more graders and coin experts? Are there museums or the mint itself that need staffing? Do any of these jobs pay well? I have no idea what a salary in any of those job settings would be like. And just as important, are these companies and institutions related to coins understaffed? Because my impression is that they are not understaffed - but I will admit I have not looked into it much. If they aren't understaffed, then there would be an oversupply of workers fighting over very few jobs. Obviously as an alternative one could open their own coin store type business.
I would fear deeply that people might take out loans for a degree like this and end up in a terrible financial situation after graduating, because honestly after seeing the courses being discussed, the major would not seem very employable in my naive opinion.
I would be appreciative to hear about employment potential from anyone who knows more than me. I think that if my goal was to enter into the coin-related industry, I would do a major that was more specialized in something than general numismatics and then take my specialized skills and enter the industry, but that's just me.
Successful transactions with: wondercoin, Tetromibi, PerryHall, PlatinumDuck, JohnMaben/Pegasus Coin & Jewelry, CoinFlip, and coinlieutenant.
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I actually think this would be better off as a part-time Masters degree for numismatics professionals and hobbyists, not a Bachelors degree. I imagine this being like the American College's Master of Science in Financial Services for financial services professionals or the part-time Stanford Masters of Liberal Arts degree. People who are already in the coin industry could get this and get a tax deduction at the same time. People who have spare time could get this degree part-time like college extension programs.
This is how Stanford describes their Master of Liberal Arts program:
An interesting thing I noted is that the 2 people with Numismatics degrees are Don Kagin and Jon Kern. They are both dealers that own their own businesses and employ other people now. Do we know if they were owners of their own businesses already or employees of other people's businesses when they got their degrees?
Guessing the potential would be the local Starbucks.
Maybe a small handful would land a job at a TPG or auction house although I would suspect they would be looking for individuals with experience. Someone needs to sort through all the monster boxes and slap ASEs in MS69 and 70 slabs.
The whole worlds off its rocker, buy Gold™.
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Short answer: Starbucks is hiring.
Long answer: A person would be better off to start as a 'weekend warrior' on the show circuit and see what develops. Maybe advertise that you will buy collections. Work at something else 9 to 5 for a while. Or go to school in business, engineering or nursing/medicine. Buy and sell coins on the side.
You don't have to sit in a classroom, you can absorb much of this numismatic and history and economics stuff as you go over time.
When I went to a major public university (graduating 1981), tuition and board was $3,000 a year. Tuition alone is perhaps $15,000 to $20,000 (or more) today, that might not be terribly out-of-line with inflation but wouldn't that include living expenses. Overall, it is daunting to think about.
I just successfully sent a child to a public university, but we had purchased a pre-paid tuition plan for eight senesters when the baby was born twenty- three years ago. One of the smartest things I ever did. We had the ability to pay the child's living expenses out-of-pocket, and my wife overspent, which was no suprise to me. But we made it, the kid got a good degree and the subsequent certifications. And (drumroll...) a great job with an important institution.
Learning and knowledge and being a well-rounded individual are very important. But right now, I would hesitate with practically anything that smacks of collegiate liberal arts. And I care very deeply about some of that stuff. Our society is turning out technicians nowadays, not well rounded scholars. The demand is for technicians.
Oh well, that is not very organized. I hope there is a little value here.
You don't need a degree to be a coin dealer.
I agree that it's unfortunate that employability seems to be an issue with many liberal arts degrees these days. Many successful people I know with liberal arts backgrounds combine that with backgrounds in other area.s
Curator of the numismatic holding at the local museum? Maybe.
There might be a few jobs at the mint, at the Smithsonian, and perhaps an auction house, private mint, or TPG service might give you a look. Actually realizing a return of your investment that would exceed the four years of tuition and potential lost earnings during that time would be dubious.
AFAIK, several YN's who attended a few ANA Summer Seminars (possibly a few with dealer relatives) have been hired at TPGS's. Therefore, it seems to me that with the proper training, the only time these folks would see the inside of a coffee shop is on their way to their new and eventually high-paying profession.
A lot of the former YNs under Mrs. Shook's guardianship later did very well in School, Numismatics and Life, but many came from exceedingly well-off families in the first place.
When you are born on third base, you should reach home plate.
That's pretty cool @Insider2. If a few summer courses and dealer (or rich) relatives is all it took, then that would suggest the college major in numismatics was not necessary.
That being said, I'm of the opinion of @BillDugan1959 that you wouldn't need to sit in a numismatic major program and pay $100,000 or so dollars in school tuition + living to absorb all you need to know to go into the numismatic field.
Successful transactions with: wondercoin, Tetromibi, PerryHall, PlatinumDuck, JohnMaben/Pegasus Coin & Jewelry, CoinFlip, and coinlieutenant.
Suspect 4 yrs of on the job training and practice would be more useful for the average job than a BS in Numismatics.
I think it would be hard to move into management at a firm like HA w/o a degree.
Born on third, thinks he got a triple. lol
The whole worlds off its rocker, buy Gold™.
BOOMIN!™
Wooooha! Did someone just say it's officially "TACO™" Tuesday????
I agree with @BillDugan1959 that working the business part time and hands on training would get you further than an actual Numismatic Degree, but having a degree that is already paid for (I believe) gets you in the door faster than with no degree.
Donato
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For 99% of BS holders majoring in numismatics:
Back in 1997, at Summer Seminar time, I drove my wife down to visit friends in the DFW metroplex, and then took a jet plane from DFW to Colorado Springs (a free flight thanks to airline miles) to get to Colorado College.
Two kids from the Midwest were in the seats next to me, a young man and a young lady. All three of us were enroute to the Summer Seminar (their flight probably originated in Indianapolis and connected at DFW). Both of the kids were YNs.
The young man was talkative and was attempting to impress the young lady. IIRC, her parents were full-time professional coin dealers. In the course of his talk, he quoted a dollar amount for the most expensive single coin that he had ever purchased.
That amount was more than ten times as much as any single coin that I have ever purchased - to this very day. That kid was born on or in the vicinity of third base.
I believe that the young man later went on to work for both HA and Stacks. I think he is still around. IIRC, his later academic credentials were also impressive (probably a business degree from a good school).
But how well do those jobs pay?
I suspect employability would be about the same as with a BA in History, Classics, or similar. I’m not a coin dealer but I would think the skills required to be a successful coin dealer are not closely related to most of what is taught in BA programs.
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I sincerely hope not. The other majors are legitimate and can be rigorous. I'd hate to think that many college kids are being conned with worthless degrees (I know some are).
You'd likely need a MBA for that and not a BS in numismatics.
You wanna be a coin dealer not starting from third base.
I recommend "The School of Hard Knocks"
"Time on the Water" will get you will you want to be.
One of my cousins has a son who fairly recently obtained a Master of Arts in U.S. History. His schools made sure that the boy had sufficient hours (courses) in Education to be able to obtain a teaching certificate. And today the kid is a History Teacher in a private High School.
When I was at University, I believe that almost all LAS students took enough Education courses to qualify them for a teaching certificate. Just in case.
Well, the most valuable local coin collection in the hands of the state of Connecticut can't even replace the lightbulbs in the display case after I requested it 3 times over the past 2 years. Never mind have the management remove the counterfeit coins from the exhibit or have some of the six figure+ coins get restored that have PVC growth on them...I doubt ANY museum outside of the Smithsonian would even think about having a dedicated numismatist on staff. See what I'm referring to below:
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/982651/new-pictures-added-7-31-19-the-joseph-c-mitchelson-collection-a-neglected-world-class-collection#latest
I imagine several people at the TPGs and the big dealers make over $100k, and some over $200k. I mean line people, not the owners. FWIW, the top exec admin at our company makes $400k, so I don't knock them.
I don't think a numismatics degree is necessary but it can be worthwhile for those in the numismatics field, similar to how many financial consultants get certifications and masters degrees.
I think a degree in numismatics is way too specific to ever be applicable as an academic pursuit. The study of Man's creations has been often described as "Fine Arts" , and this would describe as a subset the field of Numismatics. And to contrast this with the much more common degree of "Liberal Arts" , we are now focused upon the actions of man, and not the creations of man. And the study of the acts of God would be rewarded with a Bachelor of Science degree. And the thoughts of God.........
Seemingly a Numismatics Major would require the curriculum of Fine Arts for appreciation of history and also of Science for the appreciation of the metallurgical processes of manufacturing a coin. Such a curriculum might make sense, as long it does not involve the Liberal education that is focused upon the actions of man upon other men.
But at the end of the day, investment in education needs to be balanced with an expectation of income from that investment. Knowing numismatic history and metallurgy will probably only land you a sales job selling coins. I paid for my ex-wife's education as an interior designer as part of our divorce decree. Although I suggested that interior design was more about sales expertise than design expertise, I will say the same about numismatics. The degree would confer great knowledge, but very little relation to income.
OINK
Well, we have Don Kagin and Jon Kern for our 100% sample size right now. Does this represent either of them?
One coin collector I know has a bachelors and masters degree in History and working on his dissertation for his PHD. He works for the US gov't as a park ranger. Some of the younger guys here who frequent other forums may know who I am referring to.
I know he has expressed interest in open numismatic positions at museums and at the Smithsonian. I don't think he ever got any of the job when he applied. I think for such a narrow field as numismatics, even an advanced collector with a prettyrelevant degree like my friend isn't enough. Industry experience along with industry contacts (its not what you know, its who you know) is most likely more important to get a shoe into the industry, just like many other specialized industries.
40% of college graduates these days don't start off their careers by working in the field they "studied" for:
https://www.cnbc.com/2018/06/25/why-your-first-job-out-of-college-really-really-matters.html
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2013/05/20/only-27-percent-of-college-grads-have-a-job-related-to-their-major/
Never thought about it.
My impression is that there aren’t a lot of great jobs to go around, but there are even fewer great candidates to fill the jobs. Where does that leave us? I think that if a passionate and highly motivated young numismatist gets a formal numismatic education, he will get lots of job offers, and the cost of the education will prove a good investment. On the other hand, the same education will be unlikely to pay off for a less passionate graduate who’s just in it for the money.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Pawn shop clerk.
Thought I would throw this in here.
IMHO the #1 criteria for landing a good job in Numismatics is having a proven track record of being honest and reliable.
Those who have this requirement along with the knowledge will eventually become their own boss!
A useless degree.
What do you do with a 4-year degree in Museum Science?
Same question, different degree.
I have an acquaintance who has a B.S. from Harvard in Japanese literature. Her options were: get certified to teach or get an office job.
Sometimes, the degree is about the journey not the destination. There are plenty of sales people, for example, who have college degrees in odd areas. They don't work in "medieval German history" but having the degree helps them get the office job.
Now if the numismatic degree had a concentration and certification in block chain technology (bit coin for example) - now your talking. Science and Math will take you a long way.
The business of selling and grading coins, jewelry & gems, and appraising and selling real estate does not require a degree to be successful. A person can always enhance a career by getting a degree in history, business, engineering, etc. that can broaden horizons and enable entry into other professions.
There is an expanding academic field within universities that can benefit from those knowledgeable in numismatics, if they also have an education in history. Material culture studies has been a distinct academic discipline since the 1990's, an interdisciplinary field that draws on anthropology, art history, archaeology, and others. Coins, medals, and paper money are an integral part of material culture and should be included within a university curriculum of material culture studies.
As others have said, this field is more about OJT, but it couldn't hurt to major in accounting.
That being said, I think it's high time to reinvent our college/higher education system here in the US. The 4 year plus money pit system really does suck, many of the good jobs out there could probably be gotten with the equivalent of a good trade school education in far less time.
10-4,
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One thing most 4 yr college grads overlook is the potential to enter other fields.
A 4 yr degree in Numismatics could lead to a teaching position, it could lead to a job in many different areas—not just the numismatic arena.
As my 35 years of experience with Wall St banks and brokerages have taught me—you see people earning quite a good living with degrees in Religion, Philosphy, Engineering, etc. working right along side of you.
I agree ....passion is everything to do a job that you like. So is persistence !
Besides passion and persistence no better way to earn about numismatics than being on the job. That is where the real learning and earning comes from ....on the job.
I almost considered going into numismatics full time in my 20's when I was trying to figure out what I wanted to do bouncing around from job to job in the helping professions...........but alas I took a $250 per week offer from Merrill Lynch at age 30.
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
Hang in there! You'll get a raise one day!
Seriously, numismatics is one of those fields where it would be difficult for an honest person to make a great living without being exceptionally good at it, and - like almost every other field - it's almost impossible to become exeptionally good unless you're truly passionate about it.
As for the benefit of a formal numismatic education, I think that if I had had the opportunity to take the right courses with the right instructors, it would have paid huge dividends. But nothing like that existed back then, and nothing like that exists today.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
I taught a mini-seminar on US patterns once, and I could do it again, but that's about all the teaching I'm going to do. (I'm not qualified to teach the only other things that I'd like to teach, and I'm not interested in teaching anything else that I'm actually qualified to teach. So when I go to Summer Seminar, I go as a student, not a teacher.)
Anyway, ANA Summer Seminar is a wonderful thing, but what they do in a 5 day session can't possibly approach what could be done in four years of college education.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.