Morton and Eden - Mexico Collection

TwoKopeiki · November 14, 2019 3:30AM

Any action from the board members? Highlights from the floor?

bidask · November 14, 2019 3:32AM

Your up early !

TwoKopeiki · November 14, 2019 5:57AM

I catch the 5:45 train into the city most days. 3 hour long commutes are not fun. Looking forward to your posts in this thread. Action seems to be very spirited on the floor.

TwoKopeiki · November 14, 2019 7:09AM

Wow on that Zacatecas pattern quartilla!

ncsuwolf74 · November 14, 2019 7:14AM

I was watching that one 2k. A few of the hooknecks I was following went above estimates.

TwoKopeiki · November 14, 2019 7:29AM

@ncsuwolf74 said:
I was watching that one 2k. A few of the hooknecks I was following went above estimates.

You're right - I take it back. For some reason the catalog I was looking through reverted back to a pre-live bidding view. Very decent action on the Hooknecks.

TwoKopeiki · November 14, 2019 7:57AM

TwoKopeiki · November 14, 2019 7:59AM

Philippines c/s on Iturbide

TwoKopeiki · November 14, 2019 8:01AM

Philippines on a Durango Hookneck

TwoKopeiki · November 14, 2019 9:08AM

Very attractive Durango.

TwoKopeiki · November 14, 2019 9:09AM

Strong prices for Estado De Mexico trio

MrEureka · November 14, 2019 12:11PM

I guess some of the estimates were on the low side? LOL

ncsuwolf74 · November 14, 2019 1:47PM

I know of two bidder numbers that stood out lol

Yorkshireman · November 14, 2019 2:08PM

@MrEureka said:
I guess some of the estimates were on the low side? LOL

Andy, were you there?

MrEureka · November 14, 2019 3:34PM

@Yorkshireman said:

@MrEureka said:
I guess some of the estimates were on the low side? LOL

Andy, were you there?

I looked on Monday and left bids. No easy pickings this time.

Edited to say that I would have stayed if not for the auctions in New York, Baltimore, Monaco and Barcelona this week. Not to mention the ones I missed! Hard to be everywhere all the time.

Boosibri · November 14, 2019 3:40PM

I got blown away despite leaving what I thought were strong bids

MrEureka · November 14, 2019 3:58PM

Here's the thing about auctions like this. When you see things that you've never seen before, in grades that really shouldn't exist, you have to use your imagination if you want to be competitive. And you have to think more about what something is worth to YOU than about what you think it SHOULD be worth. Finally, you can't get carried away bidding on the stuff that is NOT completely unobtainable elsewhere. All of which seems obvious enough, but few people actually get it.

gscoins · November 14, 2019 4:08PM

An amazing sale. I went 0 for 6 and, to keep the metaphor going, struck out on three pitches each time...

But, for what it is worth, I found the courtesy and helpfulness of Mr. James Morton to be beyond reproach. He must have felt my bids (at least most of them) were not going to be the least bit competitive, but that didn't stop him for working with me to submit them in time for the auction.

I will keep them in mind for the future and I hope do a little better.

bidask · November 14, 2019 4:10PM

@MrEureka said:
Here's the thing about auctions like this. When you see things that you've never seen before, in grades that really shouldn't exist, you have to use your imagination if you want to be competitive. And you have to think more about what something is worth to YOU than to what you think it SHOULD be worth. Finally, you can't get carried away bidding on the stuff that is NOT completely unobtainable elsewhere. All of which seems obvious enough, but few people actually get it.

Good advice.

bidask · November 14, 2019 4:12PM

@ncsuwolf74 said:
I know of two bidder numbers that stood out lol

I think I know who those 2 bidder numbers were and they were not mine ......they were 2 longtime professional dealers.

Yorkshireman · November 14, 2019 4:20PM

@MrEureka said:
Here's the thing about auctions like this. When you see things that you've never seen before, in grades that really shouldn't exist, you have to use your imagination if you want to be competitive. And you have to think more about what something is worth to YOU than to what you think it SHOULD be worth. Finally, you can't get carried away bidding on the stuff that is NOT completely unobtainable elsewhere. All of which seems obvious enough, but few people actually get it.

Wise words

bidask · November 14, 2019 4:25PM

@TwoKopeiki said:
Strong prices for Estado De Mexico trio

I was pissed that I was the underbidder for lot 435 .....a coin I really wanted and was under graded I thought.

So I bought 436 which is a top pop and beautiful , then was the underbidder for 437 another coin I wanted, and being upset again I bought lot 438 which is really fantastic too and a top pop.

I was knocking heads with those 2 professional dealers all afternoon.

MrEureka · November 14, 2019 4:30PM

@gscoins said:
An amazing sale. I went 0 for 6 and, to keep the metaphor going, struck out on three pitches each time...

But, for what it is worth, I found the courtesy and helpfulness of Mr. James Morton to be beyond reproach. He must have felt my bids (at least most of them) were not going to be the least bit competitive, but that didn't stop him for working with me to submit them in time for the auction.

Yes, James is a great guy. To illustrate, I gave him serious sh*t about the lighting at lot viewing, explaining what works and what doesn't. Granted, I've known him for many years, we're buddies and all that, and I did it all in a friendly (but still aggressive) way, but I'm sure I went over the top. Instead of pushing back like most people in his situation would, he simply listened, left the office himself, bought the perfect (and probably expensive) lamp from a specialty shop, and brought it back to me half an hour later. Not your average professional numismatist.

bidask · November 14, 2019 4:43PM

@gscoins said:
An amazing sale. I went 0 for 6 and, to keep the metaphor going, struck out on three pitches each time...

But, for what it is worth, I found the courtesy and helpfulness of Mr. James Morton to be beyond reproach. He must have felt my bids (at least most of them) were not going to be the least bit competitive, but that didn't stop him for working with me to submit them in time for the auction.

I will keep them in mind for the future and I hope do a little better.

MortenandEden I found to be good people and they try to go out of their way to make sure you have everything you need for successful auction experience .

The only suggestion I have is put out a few sandwiches and drinks for those in the auction room.

They went straight from the ancient auction that began at 10:00am to the Mexican collection auction Starting 12:00pm a
about 2:20pm broke for 30 minutes . auction ended close to 6:00 pm .

bidask · November 14, 2019 4:45PM

One of the dealers in the room got a little heated and it seemed the auctioneer was close to asking him to leave.

JohnnyCache · November 14, 2019 5:26PM

@MrEureka said:
Here's the thing about auctions like this. When you see things that you've never seen before, in grades that really shouldn't exist, you have to use your imagination if you want to be competitive. And you have to think more about what something is worth to YOU than about what you think it SHOULD be worth. Finally, you can't get carried away bidding on the stuff that is NOT completely unobtainable elsewhere. All of which seems obvious enough, but few people actually get it.

It's just that my wallet can't keep up with my imagination.

bidask · November 14, 2019 5:31PM

The reason why this auction was an opportunity to buy was because most lots were raw.

I had the benefit of Mr Eureka ‘s presence to inspect lots which helped .

He was worth what I paid him ....... but in the end I was gradually subdued mentally by the prices being paid from other bidders primarily those in the auction room .

And I bid strong .

I will show more lots that I won when I receive my invoice .

Abuelo · November 14, 2019 5:38PM

Very likely I followed, without knowing, @MrEureka advice given that for sure, I did not keep on bidding to no end for stuff that was not that uncommon.

TwoKopeiki · November 15, 2019 8:51AM

@MrEureka said:
Here's the thing about auctions like this. When you see things that you've never seen before, in grades that really shouldn't exist, you have to use your imagination if you want to be competitive. And you have to think more about what something is worth to YOU than about what you think it SHOULD be worth. Finally, you can't get carried away bidding on the stuff that is NOT completely unobtainable elsewhere. All of which seems obvious enough, but few people actually get it.

Words to build your collection by, for sure. Requires a lot of discipline that I, personally, struggle with maintaining at times.

pruebas · November 15, 2019 1:14PM

@TwoKopeiki said:

@MrEureka said:
Here's the thing about auctions like this. When you see things that you've never seen before, in grades that really shouldn't exist, you have to use your imagination if you want to be competitive. And you have to think more about what something is worth to YOU than about what you think it SHOULD be worth. Finally, you can't get carried away bidding on the stuff that is NOT completely unobtainable elsewhere. All of which seems obvious enough, but few people actually get it.

Words to build your collection by, for sure. Requires a lot of discipline that I, personally, struggle with maintaining at times.

Don't be too hard on yourself. I think we all struggle with this.

A lot of what I buy is either unique or extremely rare. If I let something go, I will most likely never see it or another like it again in my collecting lifetime. With this kind of rarity, it's also hard to pin down values for things, and then, those values can swing wildly depending who is bidding at that moment and if another has appeared recently (which lowers the perceived rarity).

With a sale like this, I find it hard to come up with a definitive bid for each lot. But one needs this if they want to put the bids on the book. For me, it's easier to get the "feel of the action" and adjust my bids accordingly on lots of interest in accordance with their priority to my collection and whether or not I'm likely to see another. The best I can hope for is that the lots' numerical order will also be my priority order, but that isn't usually the case.

So, for example, if the most important coin for me comes up first, I could theoretically spend my entire budget on that one lot should the action warrant, and then skip the rest. But if I get that lot at a discount to my estimate, I could reallocate the budget and spend more on another lot. And so on. It is VERY hard to do this if you are not in the room personally bidding.

pruebas · November 15, 2019 1:55PM

@bidask said:

@TwoKopeiki said:
Strong prices for Estado De Mexico trio

I was pissed that I was the underbidder for lot 435 .....a coin I really wanted and was under graded I thought.

So I bought 436 which is a top pop and beautiful , then was the underbidder for 437 another coin I wanted, and being upset again I bought lot 438 which is really fantastic too and a top pop.

I was knocking heads with those 2 professional dealers all afternoon.

I really don't understand this.

Seriously, you expended the time, cost, and effort to attend in person. You made the decisions (based on personal viewing, no less) that you really wanted particular lots. But yet, you let them go. If I was sitting in the room, I would be noticing 1) if a dealer was my competitor, 2) the style of his/her bidding, and 3) any other factors affecting the bidding. These things don't always work, but they do often enough to keep you out of trouble.

I will never forget the lot I let go that I REALLY wanted. It was only XF, but it was key to my collection and I've never seen another before nor since, nor any records of any others since an auction in 1972 (probably the same coin). My competition was another collector and that was the only coin he bid on. I've never seen him before. He waited the whole sale up to that point for that lot, and left immediately afterward. His wife was with him and she was visibly trying to get him to stop bidding. I could probably have had it for another bid (especially if I jumped the bid and made him uncomfortable). But another person in the room shouted out my name (as though I was crazy) and it gave me pause. I stopped bidding and the other guy won the coin. And to this day, I have never forgotten that episode.

I guess my point is: 1) you will never forget those that got away and 2) auction room distraction is a real problem.

bosox · November 15, 2019 2:46PM

I agree, Pruebas. I recently bought a coin in the Cook sale at HA. Hands down the finest known of a rare Canadian pattern. I had a max price in my mind, then bought the coin for 50% more than that. I am glad I did. I just felt if I had let it go, I wouldn't see it again for 20 years. Now the other bidders won't see it again for 20 years.

Abuelo · November 15, 2019 2:50PM

Well said @pruebas

bidask · November 15, 2019 4:40PM

@pruebas said:

@bidask said:

@TwoKopeiki said:
Strong prices for Estado De Mexico trio

I was pissed that I was the underbidder for lot 435 .....a coin I really wanted and was under graded I thought.

So I bought 436 which is a top pop and beautiful , then was the underbidder for 437 another coin I wanted, and being upset again I bought lot 438 which is really fantastic too and a top pop.

I was knocking heads with those 2 professional dealers all afternoon.

I really don't understand this.

Seriously, you expended the time, cost, and effort to attend in person. You made the decisions (based on personal viewing, no less) that you really wanted particular lots. But yet, you let them go. If I was sitting in the room, I would be noticing 1) if a dealer was my competitor, 2) the style of his/her bidding, and 3) any other factors affecting the bidding. These things don't always work, but they do often enough to keep you out of trouble.

I will never forget the lot I let go that I REALLY wanted. It was only XF, but it was key to my collection and I've never seen another before nor since, nor any records of any others since an auction in 1972 (probably the same coin). My competition was another collector and that was the only coin he bid on. I've never seen him before. He waited the whole sale up to that point for that lot, and left immediately afterward. His wife was with him and she was visibly trying to get him to stop bidding. I could probably have had it for another bid (especially if I jumped the bid and made him uncomfortable). But another person in the room shouted out my name (as though I was crazy) and it gave me pause. I stopped bidding and the other guy won the coin. And to this day, I have never forgotten that episode.

I guess my point is: 1) you will never forget those that got away and 2) auction room distraction is a real problem.

Your correct I did expend the time, money and effort to attend in person. Plus I had Mr Eureka with me viewing lots.
A perfect set up for a successful auction experience . I went back a second day to view lots and one of the professional
dealers ( he wrote the book) came over to where I was viewing lots and the first thing out of his mouth was “looks like I have competition” !

I thought to myself ....is he buying for himself or is he representing other collectors ......I speculated both.

Not only was this dealer my chief competitor but also another longtime dealer who also has special knowledge of Mexican coins ....they were sitting together . The style of both was aggressive. Had I not been bidding they would have bought
many coins multiple increments lower.

I came prepared to bid on a lot of coins ( 95% which were cap & rays 8 reales) but most lots I bid on they also bid on the same lots. So it was not just one coin.

Example of the fierceness of bidding.

Lot 435 graded above NGC 58 ( just graded very recently) went for 4800 POUNDS....
...translate into dollars equals $6145. Heritage records indicate a NGC 58 sold for $2820 9/15 and a NGC 62 sold for
$4550 4/18.

Get my point ? Perhaps all the rare cap & ray 8 reales deserve a significant markup.

So I was happy buying what I did . I was there going toe to toe with the most knowledges buyers in the world .

They certainly bid me up but I did them as well.

Look at lot 655....a stunning 1888 10 peso NGC 64+ PL . ( ex jess peters)
A very smart and tactical dealer had a book bid of 4000 pounds .

The bidding quickly surpassed that and I was going toe to toe again ( just left my paddle up as the increments got higher)
I stopped at 6500 pounds and the lot sold for 7000 pounds ( 8400 pounds with the juice ) .....or $10,750 !

All in all exciting and not a waste of time. My wife and I were there 8 days and had a marvelous time !

Learned a lot too.....

pruebas · November 15, 2019 5:44PM

@bidask thanks for the war stories. Very interesting. And glad you and the wife had a great time. That’s important too.

But one has to consider the following: what are those knowledgeable dealers going to do with those coins at those prices? How would they get any return on the trip? It’s doubtful that they were just supporting the market (even 100 lots at £1000 per is a lot of money to tie up), and maybe a handful were for personal collections, but the rest? They are going to sell them, many probably to private clients.

So you need to ask yourself, what do they know that you don’t. Were they all undergraded? Is the market ripe for a move? Did the provenance add significant value? Was there something you missed?

I suspect we’ll know soon as these start to flow out into the market. Or not?

OGDan · November 15, 2019 10:10PM

I didn’t participate, but sure enjoyed reading through this thread. Thanks guys!

ncsuwolf74 · November 16, 2019 5:14PM

@bidask said:

All in all exciting and not a waste of time. My wife and I were there 8 days and had a marvelous time !

I am not sure if your wife went into battle with you at the auction or not but my wife loves the action. She will not watch me bid online for coins but if I take her to a live auction or any live event, she's all in. It's always more fun to share the experience...win or lose. Awesome thread. Thanks for the share.

MrEureka · November 16, 2019 10:30PM

@bidask said:

Example of the fierceness of bidding.

Lot 435 graded above NGC 58 ( just graded very recently) went for 4800 POUNDS....
...translate into dollars equals $6145. Heritage records indicate a NGC 58 sold for $2820 9/15 and a NGC 62 sold for
$4550 4/18.

Sounds like a perfect example of a coin that is not irreplaceable. No doubt worthy of your collection at some price, but not one on which to stretch to the moon. On the other hand, the coin that got away from Pruebas was apparently irreplaceable. An extra 50-100% on something like that could easily make sense.

One more little story. When the Eliasberg world gold collection was auctioned, I had perhaps half a dozen Central American Republic gold pieces in my collection. The Eliasberg collection had maybe ten more pieces that I needed and liked, and I recognized a major opportunity. I carefully prepared some aggressive bids, went to the auction, ended up seriously stretching on most of them, and bought all of the high priority pieces. The thought that went through my head as I stretched (and cringed) was that if I was serious about collecting the coins, I had no choice. And in retrospect, not only was it the right thing to do, but the prices were more reasonable than I thought at the time.

Abuelo · November 17, 2019 7:11AM

@MrEureka 's wisdom... But he is right. I have learned that the hard way.

pruebas · November 17, 2019 9:12AM

@MrEureka said:

Sounds like a perfect example of a coin that is not irreplaceable. No doubt worthy of your collection at some price, but not one on which to stretch to the moon. On the other hand, the coin that got away from Pruebas was apparently irreplaceable. An extra 50-100% on something like that could easily make sense.

50-100% of WHAT? We were setting price as we bid.

And in retrospect, not only was it the right thing to do, but the prices were more reasonable than I thought at the time.

This is true A LOT! Hard to see during the heat of “battle” though.

7Jaguars · November 17, 2019 9:45AM

I think this has been the experience for many of us on this board - when a rare coin comes up for auction that is not necessarily a "marquee" coin, just what is OK to pay? Shock bids will sometimes get you the coin; on the other hand I have seen such pieces to come up again if I lost initially at auction go to a dealer that does not necessarily have a specific buyer lined up and doesn't want to sit on the coin for eternity (and there are some that shall go unnamed here) then tender the coin up for sale through another auction or intermediary of another sort.
I have then gotten the coin or coins for LESS than I would have originally bid.

I wouldn't count on this for particular coins, but it does occur.

WCC · November 25, 2019 2:57PM

@7Jaguars said:
on the other hand I have seen such pieces to come up again if I lost initially at auction go to a dealer that does not necessarily have a specific buyer lined up and doesn't want to sit on the coin for eternity (and there are some that shall go unnamed here) then tender the coin up for sale through another auction or intermediary of another sort.
I have then gotten the coin or coins for LESS than I would have originally bid.

This is could happen with a coin I want to buy up for auction early next year. Dealer will have bought it about 15 months ago by the time it is offered but it sat on their website, as they were asking more than twice what they paid. (No public sale for this coin ever to my knowledge.) I was the underbidder. It is a coin I really want to buy, but I consider it over graded and less appealing than other lower graded coins (same series but different dates and denominations) I currently own. Partial assumption since I haven't seen the coin in person.

I will try to buy it again this time.

bidask · December 10, 2019 8:47PM

I have not seen anything on this auction from Coinweek’s world coinage section .

Thought this auction would be covered considering how long many of the coins had been off the market .

Plenty of modern coinage reporting though .

Morton and Eden - Mexico Collection

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