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question about CAC
cinclodes
Posts: 66 ✭
I have collected coins for more than 50 years, but I have never really been active in the numismatic community. So I may be naive about certain things. One of them is CAC certification. I own one such coin, but I didn't obtain it on the basis of the CAC sticker. Why do grading services need a separate service to verify their grade?
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Consider a search, at top, for CAC.
Got a photo of your one and only?
They don't. Maybe the question should be, why do collectors feel they need it?
Lance.
I’m going to say/type it...
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Another CAC thread and why the need for it, again and again and again...
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Nothing on you, OP, but I’ve bypassed more threads on this topic then there are children with stomachaches after Hallows Eve.
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So I will move right along...
CAC coins are nice. They sell for more.
They don't.
Smoke and mirrors.
TPG’s don’t need a separate service to verify their grade. Our hosts do a fantastic job and PCGS my TPG of choice. CAC is a special service outside this process like a car mod shop for high value vehicles in my view to separate what they feel are PQ or solid quality material from average quality material within the grade range.
CAC stickers coins which they feel are A and B in the grade range (C coins not stickered). Coins they feel have upgrade potential get a gold sticker.
Being in the business since 1990 I have my own concept of PQ which is a subjective thing. I do buy CAC where price is right and coin fits my standards for PQ like my new acquisition above.
If you are interested in CAC coins the CDN publishes a retail price guide with articles called The CAC Rare Coin Market Market Review with data about CAC coins and prices. I highly recommend this publication to enhance understanding of the process / market.
I have done well with nice lustrous beautifully toned pieces like the MS65 CAC Boone 50c above.
Why do we need grading services themselves?
A grading service is an opinion: a professional, expert, educated opinion, but an opinion nonetheless. CAC is an opinion, a respected opinion. A price "guide" is just an opinion possibly based on some data.
PCGS or no PCGS. CAC or no CAC. Price guide or no price guide. The coin is worth to you whatever it is worth to you. Pay it or pass.
If you want to read 10,000 opinions on CAC, it would be better to just search CAC and you'll find dozens of threads discussing all the ins and outs.
Alcohol and Analog
Grades are given in a digital system (MS65, MS66, MS67) etc. and the price guide is digital (For example, an 1885-S Morgan, nothing special, just grabbed it, where the price for an MS65 is $1450, the price for an MS66 is $4500, and the price for an MS67 is $60,000) However, prices from dealers, collectors, etc. are given in an analog system (It is better than an MS65, but not quite MS66, therefore $3500) or the term PQ is tossed about (I do not know why coins are called PQ Party Quest, as that is the meaning of PQ, but I digress).
So the grades are single digital points with wide ranges in value in between, so CAC helps fill in the gap. Is i really that grade, is it, in their opinion low for the posted grade or high for the grade, etc. which can mean tens of thousands of dollars.
Which leads to the 2nd issue: Alcohol. People swear that some graders are drunk. If it is their coin sent in, then it should have been 1 2 5 50 whatever points higher, so they must have been drinking. Or if they are buying, it should have been 1 2 8 45 points lower, and if they would have been sober, they would have graded it so. CAC, being affiliated with AA, helps to eliminate the drinking controversy.
Just wander through some of the posts, where someone posts a coin, and asks What's the grade? Opinions are voiced, covering a wide spectrum of grades, and sometimes, the PCGS / NGS, etc grade is posted, which sets off round 2 of opinions, see Alcohol comment above.
CAC tries to be the hot chocolate and warm fuzzy blanket comfort feeling in the room.
I am setting up a system to STRAC the CAC. A 3 tier system or thumbs up, thumbs down, or MEH will be assigned by me to each CAC'd coin, and then laser etched into the slab. Photos will be posted on Wickr and Yovo, because Snapchat is so 2018, and knocks out 92% of the coin dealers.
I think this is pretty close to the correct answer to the original question, although I'd move reason #3 to the top of the list.
When CAC started about 10 years + ago, I could understand people reaching different conclusions about CAC. Fast forward to the present and there has been a clear answer about CAC. Stickered coins sell for a premium because the market has determined that CAC does a good job of identifying coins that are solid for the grade and also helping collectors avoid coins that have been messed with.
@jmlanzaf Why do we need grading services themselves?
Aside from the obvious, authentication.
The whole party is a game.
so we can have this online coin forum, that's why.
Bait, meet fish.
"Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
I posted a photo in this discussion...
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/comment/12384804#Comment_12384804
Thanks for all of the informative comments. My apologies for posting a question that has already been well covered on this forum.
We COULD all authenticate for ourselves. We COULD all grade for ourselves. We pay for the expert opinion. JUST LIKE CAC!! That's my only point. None of the services are required. Plenty of coins are bought and sold raw. But there IS VALUE in the service which is why we pay for it.
Sort of why we pay $5 for 2000 calories in a cup at Starbucks. We could put something similar together at home, but pouring all of that sugar and cream into a blender might cause us to just drink some orange juice instead.
It's another opinion that could give a buyer a little more of a warm fuzzy on purchasing that particular coin.
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Also never quite tastes the same when I make it at home.
ANYONE who needs a sticker on a coin as this to verify it is graded at the top end of the PCGS grade is doing a service for all of us. It is keeping a few more folks in NJ employed. LOL.
@jmlanzaf said: "We COULD all authenticate for ourselves.
Anyone who believes this is, well, ah...humm. I guess we all COULD authenticate coins for ourselves. Depending on what we collect, the results would be extremely humorous not to mention very expensive for many of us.
Your response focuses on the tree rather than the forest. My point is that you pay for an expert opinion because it is valued more than your own. You don't necessarily NEED that opinion.
Though it wasn't my point, I could also point out that God does not work for PCGS. The authentication is done by people, sometimes people who are on this board. I might well be much more expert in my specialty than anyone who works at PCGS. But that does not obviate the need to get a market acceptable opinion, if I'm not the market accepted opinion.
True story: I bought a Tibetan 20 Srang gold at auction from a major house about 15 years ago. It arrived, raw, and I was sure it was counterfeit because those coins were struck with primitive collars and it had modern reeding. I contacted the auction house who sent it to one of the Big Three grading firms. They details graded it. I called them and asked them if they sent the coin to a Tibetan specialist. They admitted they had not. I remain convinced it was a fake, no matter what the omniscient grading service said.
The nicest coins have always sold for a premium. How you identify them is up to you. Some people like the help, some like what the stickers do for the price, and some have no idea what they’re doing.
LOL. And you wonder why these threads go off the rails....???
You are clouding the discussion! This is not about nature or trees!
You, me, and every TPGS, CAN make errors in authentication. Nevertheless, we all need a professional opinion on authentication. As for grading, that is a personal thing relying on many factors. The closer one's personal grade matches the status quo, the better their opinion will be regarded.
Your little story is quite nice. You may be correct about the authenticity of that piece. It is no secret that a specialist in a particular field often knows more than all the TPGS's combined ever will. Eventually, any TPGS mistakes are discovered and corrected. Remember, authenticity is guaranteed (except for ancients- LOL).
From now on, I'll consider you to be an "Ex-Pert" coin authenticator which is more than I can say for the rest of us.
LOL. I never claimed to be an expert authenticator. There are things I know and things I don't know. The key is to know which is which.
I ONLY buy slabbed coins at online auctions. Why? Because I can't get a close look at them.
I pay MORE for CAC'ed coins at auction. Why? Because I have 2 opinions rather than one and I trust that more than the photos.
In hand, I buy MOSTLY raw coins. Why? That's the way they come and I can do my own due diligence. I don't require a 3rd party opinion on a coin I can handle myself. No one with significant experience should feel differently, at least in their core collecting area. If they do, then they really aren't studying hard enough.
@jmlanzaf said: "LOL. I never claimed to be an expert authenticator. There are things I know and things I don't know. The key is to know which is which."
Then I shall change your status. None of us are, even when we think we know which is which. That's why TPGS's are important for most of us.
Yes, but the TPGS's are made up of people like us. I think it is important to remember that it is still just an opinion. An opinion (well, a consensus opinion) which may come with a price guarantee, but still just an opinion.
Don't feel the need to apologize, we need a reminder every week why CAC is preferred or not, according to multiple views, and logics.
These threads are very informative and provocative.
Because many people don't know how to grade and Third Party Grading Services are inconsistent.
Sometimes, it’s better to be LUCKY than good. 🍀 🍺👍
My Full Walker Registry Set (1916-1947):
https://www.ngccoin.com/registry/competitive-sets/16292/
My main problem is not knowing how HARD to bite a gold coin.
Actually they are NOT people like most of us. In most cases their final "group" opinion is more informed.
LOL...True story when I was a teenager. I traded a friend a Cal. fractional for a few silver dollars. The 1st thing he did was bite the coin and put a good dent in it!