Crusty, thanks for posting your story. Hopefully getting it off your chest lets some of the poison out.
Ive had dealers “help” me make mistakes as well and it’s a nasty feeling. In general, the faster you try to get serious about a series, the more likely it is someone will take advantage. It’s a bit of a shame that this was a referral from another coin friend, who presumably managed not to be taken by this guy? Some people are good sources if they know you’re knowledgeable and won’t take any BS, but will still take advantage otherwise. Sounds like he was one of those.
However, coins are still crazy fun, and there are many more good times than bad. Can’t wait to see what you find next for your set.
Perry Hall- sorry that’s the best I can do. I don’t want to drag names into this. But rest assured I showed it to some very top notch dealers who all confirmed it. Heck even the vest pocket dealer agreed when I sent it back to him... My buddy Pickwickjr is pretty sharp with most series but especially Seated dollars. He has taught me a tremendous amount since I’ve met him and goes the extra mile to let you know he is doing right by you .... I have purchased coins from him and without asking for it or even thinking about it.... He sends along the original receipt of what he paid for the coin from the original dealers. That’s the type of buddy I need helping me out. We have built a friendship that goes beyond coins which is well worth any tuition I have had to pay into this hobby.
PCGS has a tough job and I feel they are the best. But this coin was probably net graded because of the polishing . I paid the price for my lack of knowledge. Just want to help others avoid my mistakes
Crusty, thanks for posting your story in detail that will serve as a warning to even the most savvy of collectors. The coin was in a PCGS holder and I would not consider it a POS. However, it was grossly overpriced by someone who you considered to be a friend. While the PCGS price guidelines can be skewed, when you pay 2x guideline you are always incurring a risk of value, not a risk of grade.
Would it make sense to send it back to PCGS for a grade review?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
@Crusty said:
Perry Hall- Maybe? But I’m so disgusted with it I’m going to sell at a big loss and move on. Like I said I just want others to learn from my mistakes.
How much are you asking?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
All I can say is if I knew what would have happened to a close friend I would have never introduced them. Its tough to help out on every transaction seeing we live on opposite coasts. When you put trust in a friend you don’t expect to be TAKEN. It’s one thing to pay a strong price for a coin.
But told it’s choice only to find out it’s not. I know everyone is human and maybe I was wrong saying it was polished. That’s why I suggested Crusty show the coin to well known dealers at Long Beach.
Crusty collection is incredible and has come a long way since we met. When we met in person two coins needed to be upgraded in my opinion. The 59 and 67, i since sold Crusty one of my 1867’s. I’ll say it again friends and family are key. You can probably count on one hand who your true friends are. Money can’t buy happiness that comes from friends and family.
As far as myself most of my transactions were face to face. I saw the coins in hand and he knew enough not to offer me a dog!
@fc said: @Insider2 said:
Yawn. Glad to read you will continue to read/learn and collect. You picked a very good series to collect. Hopefully, you've decided to purchase only dollars in slabs graded by PCGS.
It was graded by pcgs. Your advice is poor. Yawn.
I stand by that comment. AFAIK, PCGS has a guarantee. I can remember going to the Long Beach Show and seeing dealers looking at a footlocker across from our table. Later I learned they were bidding on PCGS "Buy-Backs!"
Furthermore, "Polishing" occurs in degrees. Apparently, this coin was not "polished" enough to be "detailed"
and the coin was "Net" graded to reflect its "MARKET ACCEPTABLE" value.
The OP's predicament is a perfect example of why the "Market Acceptable" scam and the dangerous, stupid, "folly" of Net grading should not be tolerated.
Our job at the first TPGS, was to authenticate the coin, then grade it precisely using strict, long-established standards - grade the coin correctly in the first place (anyone can learn to do that most of the time using all the guides), describe its flaws; and then let the coin dealers determine its value. Big Reveal: coins without some kind of defect are very scarce.
The OP's story is just one in millions, Yawn. Lucky for me, I held back my true opinion of the OP's situation while offering some advice. I guess I should have posted more of my original thoughts. Now, I'll add one more:
@fc said: @Insider2 said:
Yawn. Glad to read you will continue to read/learn and collect. You picked a very good series to collect. Hopefully, you've decided to purchase only dollars in slabs graded by PCGS.
It was graded by pcgs. Your advice is poor. Yawn.
I stand by that comment. AFAIK, PCGS has a guarantee. I can remember going to the Long Beach Show and seeing dealers looking at a footlocker across from our table. Later I learned they were bidding on PCGS "Buy-Backs!"
Furthermore, "Polishing" occurs in degrees. Apparently, this coin was not "polished" enough to be "detailed"
and the coin was "Net" graded to reflect its "MARKET ACCEPTABLE" value.
The OP's predicament is a perfect example of why the "Market Acceptable" scam and the dangerous, stupid, "folly" of Net grading should not be tolerated.
Our job at the first TPGS, was to authenticate the coin, then grade it precisely using strict, long-established standards - grade the coin correctly in the first place (anyone can learn to do that most of the time using all the guides), describe its flaws; and then let the coin dealers determine its value. Big Reveal: coins without some kind of defect are very scarce.
The OP's story is just one in millions, Yawn. Lucky for me, I held back my true opinion of the OP's situation while offering some advice. I guess I should have posted more of my original thoughts. Now, I'll add one more:
TRUST NO ONE.
Unless you’re highly knowledgeable, you will need (and probably be well served) to trust someone. The hard part is figuring out/learning whom to trust.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@fc said: @Insider2 said:
Yawn. Glad to read you will continue to read/learn and collect. You picked a very good series to collect. Hopefully, you've decided to purchase only dollars in slabs graded by PCGS.
It was graded by pcgs. Your advice is poor. Yawn.
I stand by that comment. AFAIK, PCGS has a guarantee. I can remember going to the Long Beach Show and seeing dealers looking at a footlocker across from our table. Later I learned they were bidding on PCGS "Buy-Backs!"
Furthermore, "Polishing" occurs in degrees. Apparently, this coin was not "polished" enough to be "detailed"
and the coin was "Net" graded to reflect its "MARKET ACCEPTABLE" value.
The OP's predicament is a perfect example of why the "Market Acceptable" scam and the dangerous, stupid, "folly" of Net grading should not be tolerated.
Our job at the first TPGS, was to authenticate the coin, then grade it precisely using strict, long-established standards - grade the coin correctly in the first place (anyone can learn to do that most of the time using all the guides), describe its flaws; and then let the coin dealers determine its value. Big Reveal: coins without some kind of defect are very scarce.
The OP's story is just one in millions, Yawn. Lucky for me, I held back my true opinion of the OP's situation while offering some advice. I guess I should have posted more of my original thoughts. Now, I'll add one more:
TRUST NO ONE.
Unless you’re highly knowledgeable, you will need (and probably be well served) to trust someone. The hard part is figuring out/learning whom to trust.
I'll need to agree that is one way to do it. The faster way to learn too.
However, since I was self-taught initially (with much less availability to the wealth of info that we have today ) I have little sympathy for those who jump right in with their money, TRUST, and the universal desire to collect something that many are born with. I also have the "hoarding gene." I like to buy plenty of little things rather than one big thing.
Since I began collecting in the "Wild West Days" it's lucky I was not purchasing "key" coins or I would have certainly purchased altered fakes! I learned what an ORIGINAL, unmolested coin looked like right away and that "eye" for originality has served me very well.
A startling FACT I soon discovered was that most coin dealers had NO CLUE about virtually anything. I realized that none of them should be trusted until they were vetted. I tell all my students to read and listen to everything they can get a hold of (including what I teach and write). Then go out and see if the information is correct and can be confirmed to their satisfaction.
Knowing what an original coin looks like (examine TPGS slabs MS-65 and above) in the series a collector is interested in BEFORE SPENDING ONE CENT on anything except reference books is more great advice (if I say so myself ) to all of the novices and CRH's reading this post.
See what I mean about market grades ? Am I the only one who thinks this is a major reason the market value just drops and dives day after day it seems ? Where are the PCGS Board of Experts that market PCGS only coins. Maybe they could help you Crusty.
That’s awful what he did to you, But believe me, many ‘friends’ are no longer friends when money is involved. Selfishness and greed are rampant not only in the coin world but in every day life. The right thing for him to do would’ve been to take his profit and refund you his purchase price of $1800. However, he may not have even paid $1800 for it, which makes things even worse. I mean really...how can you even believe him About anything at this point? I also don’t believe that he did not know the coin was polished—I think he just saw an easy opportunity and went for it. Money was much more important to him than your friendship. Karma will pay a visit to his doorstep, one day, so don’t worry about that, and take it as a lesson learned. We’ve all paid tuition but I hope that the rest of the $25,000 that you spent with him wasn’t as bad as the 59p! Who was this guy? Would like to know, So that I (And the rest of us) may avoid running afoul of him in the future.
Sometimes, it’s better to be LUCKY than good. 🍀 🍺👍
Realone- I’ve actually been blown away with all the PMs I’ve gotten so far. This vest pocket dealer is already known by many. I didn’t even have to write his name... The coin community knows... Sad but true.... I also appreciate all the people who have offered to help me out . This forum is the best
@amwldcoin said:
That LOL is because we posted at almost the same time!
@WCC said:
No image of the reverse but is it possible the coin was "net graded"?
Yes. When I saw the image, that's the first thing that came to mind. I don't think the coin is a "POS". Hard to tell from the image but it looks pretty decent to me.
I can see that the OP is disappointed that they didn't get what they thought they bought and overpaid. I can also see that they feel betrayed by the seller but it's possible the seller didn't know it either. Being a long time collector doesn't mean anyone will know it.
I disagree with TPG grading on my primary series relatively often (NGC more than PCGS) but can't change it. It just means I have to consider this reality when deciding whether to buy a coin and how much to pay.
No offense, I guess I'm not sure how the seller cheated Crusty. Yes, the coin may have been overpriced and overrated by the seller but it was PCGS certified and not a details grade. If anything, I'm surprised it has taken only 3 years to be 5 coins away from completing the Seated Dollar series. At that rate, there must be other coins in the collection like this because the series is riddled with problem coins and finding original coins is a very difficult, if not, impossible process. I've seen some very beautiful coins posted by Crusty but there has to be other ones that are stretches. The series is that difficult and they just don't appear often.
I would not have wanted to start on this series if I was a new collector.
@chesterb said:
No offense, I guess I'm not sure how the seller cheated Crusty. Yes, the coin may have been overpriced and overrated by the seller but it was PCGS certified and not a details grade. If anything, I'm surprised it has taken only 3 years to be 5 coins away from completing the Seated Dollar series. At that rate, there must be other coins in the collection like this because the series is riddled with problem coins and finding original coins is a very difficult, if not, impossible process. I've seen some very beautiful coins posted by Crusty but there has to be other ones that are stretches. The series is that difficult and they just don't appear often.
I would not have wanted to start on this series if I was a new collector.
I think it depends on how one defines "cheated". I think nearly all would agree that the pseudo-dealer acted unethically. Similarly, I would think nearly all would agree that he did not act illegally (or at least would likely be nearly impossible to prove).
I do think it is unfortunate that this pseudo-dealer is apparently known in the community to be untrustworthy. However, it is easy for the unsuspecting to fall victim.
Comments
Crusty, thanks for posting your story. Hopefully getting it off your chest lets some of the poison out.
Ive had dealers “help” me make mistakes as well and it’s a nasty feeling. In general, the faster you try to get serious about a series, the more likely it is someone will take advantage. It’s a bit of a shame that this was a referral from another coin friend, who presumably managed not to be taken by this guy? Some people are good sources if they know you’re knowledgeable and won’t take any BS, but will still take advantage otherwise. Sounds like he was one of those.
However, coins are still crazy fun, and there are many more good times than bad. Can’t wait to see what you find next for your set.
Perry Hall- sorry that’s the best I can do. I don’t want to drag names into this. But rest assured I showed it to some very top notch dealers who all confirmed it. Heck even the vest pocket dealer agreed when I sent it back to him... My buddy Pickwickjr is pretty sharp with most series but especially Seated dollars. He has taught me a tremendous amount since I’ve met him and goes the extra mile to let you know he is doing right by you .... I have purchased coins from him and without asking for it or even thinking about it.... He sends along the original receipt of what he paid for the coin from the original dealers. That’s the type of buddy I need helping me out. We have built a friendship that goes beyond coins which is well worth any tuition I have had to pay into this hobby.
PCGS has a tough job and I feel they are the best. But this coin was probably net graded because of the polishing . I paid the price for my lack of knowledge. Just want to help others avoid my mistakes
Crusty, thanks for posting your story in detail that will serve as a warning to even the most savvy of collectors. The coin was in a PCGS holder and I would not consider it a POS. However, it was grossly overpriced by someone who you considered to be a friend. While the PCGS price guidelines can be skewed, when you pay 2x guideline you are always incurring a risk of value, not a risk of grade.
OINK
Would it make sense to send it back to PCGS for a grade review?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Perry Hall- Maybe? But I’m so disgusted with it I’m going to sell at a big loss and move on. Like I said I just want others to learn from my mistakes.
How much are you asking?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
All I can say is if I knew what would have happened to a close friend I would have never introduced them. Its tough to help out on every transaction seeing we live on opposite coasts. When you put trust in a friend you don’t expect to be TAKEN. It’s one thing to pay a strong price for a coin.
But told it’s choice only to find out it’s not. I know everyone is human and maybe I was wrong saying it was polished. That’s why I suggested Crusty show the coin to well known dealers at Long Beach.
Crusty collection is incredible and has come a long way since we met. When we met in person two coins needed to be upgraded in my opinion. The 59 and 67, i since sold Crusty one of my 1867’s. I’ll say it again friends and family are key. You can probably count on one hand who your true friends are. Money can’t buy happiness that comes from friends and family.
As far as myself most of my transactions were face to face. I saw the coins in hand and he knew enough not to offer me a dog!
I stand by that comment. AFAIK, PCGS has a guarantee. I can remember going to the Long Beach Show and seeing dealers looking at a footlocker across from our table. Later I learned they were bidding on PCGS "Buy-Backs!"
Furthermore, "Polishing" occurs in degrees. Apparently, this coin was not "polished" enough to be "detailed"
and the coin was "Net" graded to reflect its "MARKET ACCEPTABLE" value.
The OP's predicament is a perfect example of why the "Market Acceptable" scam and the dangerous, stupid, "folly" of Net grading should not be tolerated.
Our job at the first TPGS, was to authenticate the coin, then grade it precisely using strict, long-established standards - grade the coin correctly in the first place (anyone can learn to do that most of the time using all the guides), describe its flaws; and then let the coin dealers determine its value. Big Reveal: coins without some kind of defect are very scarce.
The OP's story is just one in millions, Yawn. Lucky for me, I held back my true opinion of the OP's situation while offering some advice. I guess I should have posted more of my original thoughts. Now, I'll add one more:
TRUST NO ONE.
Unless you’re highly knowledgeable, you will need (and probably be well served) to trust someone. The hard part is figuring out/learning whom to trust.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I'll need to agree that is one way to do it. The faster way to learn too.
However, since I was self-taught initially (with much less availability to the wealth of info that we have today ) I have little sympathy for those who jump right in with their money, TRUST, and the universal desire to collect something that many are born with. I also have the "hoarding gene." I like to buy plenty of little things rather than one big thing.
Since I began collecting in the "Wild West Days" it's lucky I was not purchasing "key" coins or I would have certainly purchased altered fakes! I learned what an ORIGINAL, unmolested coin looked like right away and that "eye" for originality has served me very well.
A startling FACT I soon discovered was that most coin dealers had NO CLUE about virtually anything. I realized that none of them should be trusted until they were vetted. I tell all my students to read and listen to everything they can get a hold of (including what I teach and write). Then go out and see if the information is correct and can be confirmed to their satisfaction.
Knowing what an original coin looks like (examine TPGS slabs MS-65 and above) in the series a collector is interested in BEFORE SPENDING ONE CENT on anything except reference books is more great advice (if I say so myself
) to all of the novices and CRH's reading this post.
Moral of the story:
POS sells POS.
See what I mean about market grades ? Am I the only one who thinks this is a major reason the market value just drops and dives day after day it seems ? Where are the PCGS Board of Experts that market PCGS only coins. Maybe they could help you Crusty.
That’s awful what he did to you, But believe me, many ‘friends’ are no longer friends when money is involved. Selfishness and greed are rampant not only in the coin world but in every day life. The right thing for him to do would’ve been to take his profit and refund you his purchase price of $1800. However, he may not have even paid $1800 for it, which makes things even worse. I mean really...how can you even believe him About anything at this point? I also don’t believe that he did not know the coin was polished—I think he just saw an easy opportunity and went for it. Money was much more important to him than your friendship. Karma will pay a visit to his doorstep, one day, so don’t worry about that, and take it as a lesson learned. We’ve all paid tuition but I hope that the rest of the $25,000 that you spent with him wasn’t as bad as the 59p! Who was this guy? Would like to know, So that I (And the rest of us) may avoid running afoul of him in the future.
Sometimes, it’s better to be LUCKY than good. 🍀 🍺👍
My Full Walker Registry Set (1916-1947):
https://www.ngccoin.com/registry/competitive-sets/16292/
Realone- I’ve actually been blown away with all the PMs I’ve gotten so far. This vest pocket dealer is already known by many. I didn’t even have to write his name... The coin community knows... Sad but true.... I also appreciate all the people who have offered to help me out . This forum is the best
Was he one of the folks investigated by PCGS?
Yes. When I saw the image, that's the first thing that came to mind. I don't think the coin is a "POS". Hard to tell from the image but it looks pretty decent to me.
I can see that the OP is disappointed that they didn't get what they thought they bought and overpaid. I can also see that they feel betrayed by the seller but it's possible the seller didn't know it either. Being a long time collector doesn't mean anyone will know it.
I disagree with TPG grading on my primary series relatively often (NGC more than PCGS) but can't change it. It just means I have to consider this reality when deciding whether to buy a coin and how much to pay.
Please post or PM me the name of this dealer so I may avoid him...... not only is it wrong to cheat someone, it is wrong to protect a cheat... Thanks
No offense, I guess I'm not sure how the seller cheated Crusty. Yes, the coin may have been overpriced and overrated by the seller but it was PCGS certified and not a details grade. If anything, I'm surprised it has taken only 3 years to be 5 coins away from completing the Seated Dollar series. At that rate, there must be other coins in the collection like this because the series is riddled with problem coins and finding original coins is a very difficult, if not, impossible process. I've seen some very beautiful coins posted by Crusty but there has to be other ones that are stretches. The series is that difficult and they just don't appear often.
I would not have wanted to start on this series if I was a new collector.
I think it depends on how one defines "cheated". I think nearly all would agree that the pseudo-dealer acted unethically. Similarly, I would think nearly all would agree that he did not act illegally (or at least would likely be nearly impossible to prove).
I do think it is unfortunate that this pseudo-dealer is apparently known in the community to be untrustworthy. However, it is easy for the unsuspecting to fall victim.
@Crusty Please message me directly and we'll work to take this coin off the market if warranted. Thanks
Brett Charville --- I work at PCGS
Locking post as we're headed towards rule #2 violation on our guidelines. Thanks
Brett Charville --- I work at PCGS