Options
Hi, new here with a question about PL and DPL Morgan dollars.
DelawareDoons
Posts: 3,413 ✭✭✭✭✭
What are the exact definitions used? I picked up this 1881-S recently and it is far nicer than my other PLs and seems more in line with my DPL, but is labeled PL.
Here are a few pics, best I can do.
"It's like God, Family, Country, except Sticker, Plastic, Coin."
8
Comments
I also figure I should offer some background. I am new here but not new to collecting. I am actually in the later years of my collecting and will probably begin to sell off stuff within a few years. But for now, I am attempting to maintain my habit of only buying great coins at what I feel are great prices, so new acquisitions are few and far between for me. I focus mostly on Morgans and other Silver Dollars and have a decent sized collection.
"It's like God, Family, Country, except Sticker, Plastic, Coin."
Could be the fingerprints on the reverse holding it back from full DPL.
If a grading company feels that a coin is DPL, I’d be very surprised if prints prevent that designation.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
The only flaw I can see on this coin that may explain the non-DPL designation is a small planchet flaw between stars 3 and 4 on the obverse. I am sending the coin to a dealer who will submit it to CAC for me after he images it. I am curious to see what they say given I find it exceptionally nice for the assigned grade. I would add I have submitted about 60 Morgans to CAC over the years and never received a gold CAC so I am not getting my hopes up.
I will share the images I get here, when they are done.
"It's like God, Family, Country, except Sticker, Plastic, Coin."
Are you saying that you think the coin deserves a DPL designation and a higher grade? The former, alone, would have nothing to do with a gold sticker from CAC.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
What I will say is that I think the coin is not a 65PL. It is either a 65DPL, 66PL, or 66DPL. I am split between 5 and 6 when I look at it which means it would probably go 5+DPL. I would crack it out (for a regrade) but I don't want to lose the old holder. The mirrors are all there and then some.
"It's like God, Family, Country, except Sticker, Plastic, Coin."
Based on your above reply, if it were mine, I’d try NGC regrade first (and then CAC). The reason I say that is that CAC won’t/can’t give you credit for the con as a DPL in its current holder.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
PL and DMPL are too subjective. While there are published suggestions, I work with a person who considers himself to be the foremost authority on your question. According to him, the date and mint of the coin matters. I say:
Phooey!
Unfortunately the "market makers" determine the designation. Additionally, the standards seemed to have changed over the years.
PS Your coin looks DMPL to me. Additionally, it is just an 81-S in an old slab so I'll bet it would be today's DMPL.
As a collector who loves old slabs and not a seller, I would rather keep the plastic than get a DPL designation until I have to sell it. Then I will worry about the regrade.
"It's like God, Family, Country, except Sticker, Plastic, Coin."
Good for you and I mean that, sincerely.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I have never heard of the standards being applied differently to different dates. I always thought that there are just some dates that will never exist in true DPL and that's the way it should be. It is either DPL or it isn't.
"It's like God, Family, Country, except Sticker, Plastic, Coin."
Beautiful coin!
That is the way IT SHOULD BE. However, as it has been explained over-and-over to me through the years
(with no effect on my personal opinion I might add); when a coin is rarely seen and thus very expensive in DMPL, it better be DMPL ++ to get the same designation (because it looks exactly the same) that a commonly seen DMPL coin will receive nineteen times out of twenty!
This particular coin might be the single most common date in DPL though.
"It's like God, Family, Country, except Sticker, Plastic, Coin."
The older holders for the DPL designation were less restrictive on mirror depth and clarity. There are a number of older holders wilh DPL designation that today would be PL as the reflective mirror standards have tightened in recent years.
Here is a lose rule of thumb that I use. In order for the coin to be PL or DPL both sides must exhibit mirror reflection. Both clarity and depth are used to evaluate the designation. For a coin to be DPL it must exhibit frost on the devices:
PL 2" to 4" mirror reflectivity
DPL 6" mirror reflectivity
There appears to be a grey area from 4" to 6" mirrors on DPL and PL.
From your photos your coin appears to be DPL, but really difficult from photo to tell the difference between between a solid PL from a DPL.
Based on my observations, as well as what’s published on their sites, neither PCGS nor NGC require that a Morgan dollar exhibit frosted devices in order to qualify as a DPL.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Thank you for the specifics! I have several CACed PLs and this blows them out of the water. I usually avoid the older holders for PL/DPL but I'm sure glad I didn't skip over this one! Haha.
"It's like God, Family, Country, except Sticker, Plastic, Coin."
Mark,
I beleive the word that I have seen on NGC and PCGS is contrast vs frosty,
I debated and I inserted frosty as my rule for DPL.
I have never seen in print standards a hard rule at NGC or PCGS on PL vs DMPL.
Fingerprints, planchet flaws and frost on devices have nothing to do with a PL versus DPL/DMPL designation.
NGC wants minimum 4 inches of clear field reflectivity for DPL. At least 2 inches for PL.
PCGS wants minimum 6 inches of clear field reflectivity for DMPL. At least 2 inches for PL.
The only other caveat is that both sides must exhibit the reflectivity to earn the designation.
That’s it.
See below. There is no mention of contrast or frost being required.
https://www.ngccoin.com/news/article/6633/learn-grading-deep-prooflike/
https://www.pcgs.com/grades#gradeDMPL
Edited to add: To be fair, I found a conflicting NGC article that mentions “heavily frosted” devices as a requirement for DMPL. See below.
https://www.ngccoin.com/coin-grading/grading-scale/
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I have noticed it doesnt matter if there's extreme frost. But good rule of thumb if theres 4 inch on both sides ur fine from both services
Where did you get that thing? I want one!
"It's like God, Family, Country, except Sticker, Plastic, Coin."
Sum times old holders don’t have the PL or DPL designation on a coin. Try send it in to be regraded. Then you will know for sure if your coin is DPL or not.
I do not want to lose the holder.
"It's like God, Family, Country, except Sticker, Plastic, Coin."
No worries you don’t have to, the coin fits well with the old holder, but if your ever curious about the DPL it’s just a suggestion 👍😊
@MFeld said: "Based on my observations, as well as what’s published on their sites, neither PCGS nor NGC require that a Morgan dollar exhibit frosted devices in order to qualify as a DPL"
That should be the case. Unfortunately, one thing at least one of the services will NOT DO is to call a darkly toned Ike dollar a Cameo Proof because the toning hides the cameo contrast. At least it was that way two years ago when I brought this up with one of the finalizers and in an Internet forum. If they still continue this practice....it is just another example of the "blind leading the way."
I received my edited pictures today. Perhaps you all can see why I like this coin so much now.
"It's like God, Family, Country, except Sticker, Plastic, Coin."
Beautiful morgan! Certainly looks like it could be DMPL from the pictures. The reverse is outstanding.
Thank you, sir.
"It's like God, Family, Country, except Sticker, Plastic, Coin."
My YouTube Channel
The dealer sent me pictures of the slab today after CAC looked at it. I know they say you should never expect a gold sticker, but I will not lie, I had my hopes up that this might receive the hallowed CAC gold. Alas, it is not my day.
"It's like God, Family, Country, except Sticker, Plastic, Coin."
Basically CAC wants a piece to be at least 1.5-2 grades undergraded to qualify for the gold bean ...
They green bean Morgan’s all the time—like your 65 that would easily be a 66 today if resubmitted—instead of bestowing gold.
While I don’t always agree with that methodology, it does ensure that the gold beans remain quite scarce.
Yep, I know their deal. I was hoping the DPL surfaces would overcome the fact that the coin is more 66 than 67 quality.
"It's like God, Family, Country, except Sticker, Plastic, Coin."