Wow, thanks everyone for your replies. I was worried when I posted this but everyone has stayed on point to the original question and the thread has not deteriorated!
For me personally, I buy mostly coins that have a sticker, this year I have averaged 83% and last year 71%. CAC does factor into my decision. First an inquiry is made why it doesn't have a sticker and if it was sent. Then I start to look why it didn't sticker. I like the extra CAC certification because, like it or not, the market drives the value and coins that CAC stickered are easier to sell and worth more in most cases. I'm not sure if it will stand the test of time but that's my reasoning now.
At auction CAC coins bring comparatively higher prices. I assume honest dealers would pay more for CAC stickered material if they agree it's A or B quality. For a sight seen sale peel off the sticker just to see; i'ts still CAC.
There are many of us that are comfortable choosing and buying what we are confident in, many of us grade well, and are confident in our skills. Granted, that's good - however the issue at large today is the slab arena has mushroomed in numbers, exponentially since years back as have the venues to purchase like online.
There are many shady dealers, and almost every show let alone the many online sellers that have a number of purveyors of dreck and problem goods - overall all non stickered.
The point here that some are trying to make is while CAC is not totally foolproof, it is a major remover of doubt, and does add a often secure hedge against buying blind and future resale.
For coins eligible for a CAC, I’m at 100%! Like one of the earlier comments, my skills are nowhere that of JA. I want the CAC sticker to make it easier for my heirs to sell, and hopefully then receive pricing closer to “fair value”.
Due to the reality of today’s two-tier market of those with CAC’s and those without CAC’s, I believe that due to the bump in pricing for coins meriting a CAC, that most of these coins valued over $1,000 have been sent to CAC, since the cost is only $14.50. The question we should then all be asking ourselves of our coins valued at over $1,000, is WHY does it not have a CAC? Is it because it is not solid for the grade? Is it because the coin has been “treated” in such a way that JA deems not acceptable, but is OK with PCGS and NGC? As many of you know, gold coins get very few stickers as a percentage of those submitted. An example is the most common date 1904 Liberty Double Eagle. There are 12,641 of these graded MS65 (PCGS 5,499 NGC 7,142). However, only 465 of these 12,641 merit a CAC (less than 4%). For those of us not buying CAC coins that feel they have excellent grading skills (or those that “buy the coin and not the sticker”), why not pay the $14.50 to see if that coin you like so much merits a CAC? If indeed that coin truly merits a CAC, you’ll be handsomely rewarded with very significant increase in value for you or your heirs. Due to this price difference, I don’t see a logical explanation not to submit it, unless you fear the rejection (and then the confirmation) that your coin does not merit the CAC. I understand those choosing not to buy coins with CAC’s, but am flabbergasted as to why you would not pay $14.50 to submit considering the significant increase in value compared to the $14.50. If your coin does get rejected for a CAC, you might ask yourself (or JA) why it does not merit a CAC?
A day without fine wine and working on your coin collection is like a day without sunshine!!!
80-85%. I’ll buy non CAC if I understand why JA passed...and the value for the quality is there. Or if it really doesn’t matter like on the 1804 dollar
@koynekwest said:
Admittedly I do have a biggie with a sticker but it came that way when I bought it. I didn't pay a "sticker premium" for it. The sticker was irrelevant when I bought it. If it brings a little more when it's sold so be it.
I think another factor is to what extent price is an issue. If you can comfortably afford the coin you want (including the CAC premium), in the grade you want, and the coin is readily available in CAC, then it's pretty easy to buy only CAC. But if at your price point you have to choose between a VF-CAC and an XF-nonCAC and you want an XF coin, for example, then the "right" answer is less clear.
About 90%, if they do not sticker, I try to understand why. Then sell off those coins. I like buying PCGS/CAC at auction. Lots of added value hopefully at time of reselling. Its interesting if you think about the money involved. Postage both ways and grading fees to get coin in a holder. Then, postage both ways and sticker fee to get stickered. A sign of premium quality.
Nothing I own not one CAC coin the auction are usually overpriced in my view I’ve got coins I’m sure would sticker but I don’t fell the need to reaffirm that with a tiny sticker
Seems you are asking more than a single question. Seems the more scientific approach would include raw coins and even those coins that are outside the scope of CAC.
CAC has a place so let's not elevate or diminish what that role should be.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
Of my gold set, 3 of the 12 are CAC, so 25%, of my non gold, nothing is stickered.
Two of the three, the sticker was basically free, no premium the $5 Lib, I paid full CAC Graysheet, but that might have had something to do with my trade, I'm cool with it though.
I'll pay a premium if the coin is all there, but not if it's run of the mill and I'm solely paying for the sticker.
The great thing about all this is if you feel CAC provides a valuable service (identifies coins solid for the grade, helps avoid messed with coins, etc.) you have the option of collecting just CAC coins. If you feel CAC offers you nothing but just inflates the prices of coins, then you have your pick of all the non CAC coins at non inflated prices (and it is a big selection since most coins are not CAC). Win WIn.
@koynekwest said:
Admittedly I do have a biggie with a sticker but it came that way when I bought it. I didn't pay a "sticker premium" for it. The sticker was irrelevant when I bought it. If it brings a little more when it's sold so be it.
@lkeigwin said:
Maybe 10%? I honestly don't care when buying.
When it comes time to sell...some day...I'll probably look to CAC because the market likes JA. And I would expect 25% to sticker.
I disapprove of what he says. But I will defend to the death his right to judge coins.
Lance.
Why only 25%? With your eye, I would expect close to 100!
For my Morgan set, I buy probably 50% CAC. I also collect many coins which aren’t eligible or for which it doesn’t matter (coins which aren’t that expensive and/or I am going to crack them out for an album).
Personally, I've seen coins that got a pass on a sticker, then was cracked, upgraded and suddenly got a sticker. I ignore anything on the outside of the holder and focus only on the coin and label inside the holder.
Frankly for me I don’t care - view it like one RB a wrecking ball smash mouth archetype the other a speedster. My view is more in yards per carry not archetype. Both have contributed to my team.
@mach1ne said:
Personally, I've seen coins that got a pass on a sticker, then was cracked, upgraded and suddenly got a sticker. I ignore anything on the outside of the holder and focus only on the coin and label inside the holder.
Well lots of coins get cracked out and upgraded so why do you focus on the label inside the holder?
PCGS says they've certified more than 40,000,000 pieces of coinage. NGC about 43,000,000. Numbers not verified, I'm going by memory. CAC in a most recent Greysheet ad announced they had evaluated 1.1 million coins. Mind you, they may not be all CAC eligible coins (like world coinage from PCGS and NGC), but let's go with it.
So, 1.1 million coins of over 83 million certified have even been to CAC. That number gets discounted because of world coins and ineligible coins, but the statistical merit remains. And then again you're listening to just one firm's opinion. So, as much as I HIGHLY RESPECT CAC, you're missing out on an awful lot of coins if you're only looking for CAC beans.
Brian Hodge
Partner, President of Numismatics
Minshull Trading
@Brian_Hodge said:
PCGS says they've certified more than 40,000,000 pieces of coinage. NGC about 43,000,000. Numbers not verified, I'm going by memory. CAC in a most recent Greysheet ad announced they had evaluated 1.1 million coins. Mind you, they may not be all CAC eligible coins (like world coinage from PCGS and NGC), but let's go with it.
So, 1.1 million coins of over 83 million certified have even been to CAC. That number gets discounted because of world coins and ineligible coins, but the statistical merit remains. And then again you're listening to just one firm's opinion. So, as much as I HIGHLY RESPECT CAC, you're missing out on an awful lot of coins if you're only looking for CAC beans.
@Brian_Hodge said:
PCGS says they've certified more than 40,000,000 pieces of coinage. NGC about 43,000,000. Numbers not verified, I'm going by memory. CAC in a most recent Greysheet ad announced they had evaluated 1.1 million coins. Mind you, they may not be all CAC eligible coins (like world coinage from PCGS and NGC), but let's go with it.
So, 1.1 million coins of over 83 million certified have even been to CAC. That number gets discounted because of world coins and ineligible coins, but the statistical merit remains. And then again you're listening to just one firm's opinion. So, as much as I HIGHLY RESPECT CAC, you're missing out on an awful lot of coins if you're only looking for CAC beans.
Keep in mind, that modern coins constitute a large portion of the reported PCGS and NGC populations and that CAC doesn’t review them.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@Brian_Hodge said:
PCGS says they've certified more than 40,000,000 pieces of coinage. NGC about 43,000,000. Numbers not verified, I'm going by memory. CAC in a most recent Greysheet ad announced they had evaluated 1.1 million coins. Mind you, they may not be all CAC eligible coins (like world coinage from PCGS and NGC), but let's go with it.
So, 1.1 million coins of over 83 million certified have even been to CAC. That number gets discounted because of world coins and ineligible coins, but the statistical merit remains. And then again you're listening to just one firm's opinion. So, as much as I HIGHLY RESPECT CAC, you're missing out on an awful lot of coins if you're only looking for CAC beans.
Keep in mind, that modern coins constitute a large portion of the reported PCGS and NGC populations and that CAC doesn’t review them.
Assuming that we exclude moderns and adjust for crack outs, cross overs, details coins, etc., wouldn't it be reasonable to believe that there are at least 10-15 million classic coins that are eligible for CAC submission? CAC has reviewed only 1.1 million coins which still leaves a lot of potential material out there. Keep in mind that a number of cheap coins (generic Peace, Morgans, WLH, Mercury Dimes, etc., in 66 and below) have been submitted and included in CAC's 1.1 million estimate too.
@Brian_Hodge said:
PCGS says they've certified more than 40,000,000 pieces of coinage. NGC about 43,000,000. Numbers not verified, I'm going by memory. CAC in a most recent Greysheet ad announced they had evaluated 1.1 million coins. Mind you, they may not be all CAC eligible coins (like world coinage from PCGS and NGC), but let's go with it.
So, 1.1 million coins of over 83 million certified have even been to CAC. That number gets discounted because of world coins and ineligible coins, but the statistical merit remains. And then again you're listening to just one firm's opinion. So, as much as I HIGHLY RESPECT CAC, you're missing out on an awful lot of coins if you're only looking for CAC beans.
Keep in mind, that modern coins constitute a large portion of the reported PCGS and NGC populations and that CAC doesn’t review them.
Assuming that we exclude moderns and adjust for crack outs, cross overs, details coins, etc., wouldn't it be reasonable to believe that there are at least 10-15 million classic coins that are eligible for CAC submission? CAC has reviewed only 1.1 million coins which still leaves a lot of potential material out there. Keep in mind that a number of cheap coins (generic Peace, Morgans, WLH, Mercury Dimes, etc., in 66 and below) have been submitted and included in CAC's 1.1 million estimate too.
Without knowing how many moderns have been graded (edited to add: and generic gold coins which don’t merit submission to CAC) I wouldn’t want to comment on your estimate of how many coins might be eligible for CAC submission. That said, certainly, it’s got to be hefty multiples of the number that CAC has seen, thus far.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
JA said in an interview that CAC has seen 80-90% of the better coins that have been in the market place in the last 23 years. He is in the best position to know.
@Gazes said:
JA said in an interview that CAC has seen 80-90% of the better coins that have been in the market place in the last 23 years. He is in the best position to know.
His comment doesn’t mean much, unless we know how he he defines “better”. And even if we do know what he meant by that (and his % is correct), everyone has their own idea as to what “better” means.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@Gazes said:
JA said in an interview that CAC has seen 80-90% of the better coins that have been in the market place in the last 23 years. He is in the best position to know.
His comment doesn’t mean much, unless we know how he he defines “better”. And even if we do know what he meant by that (and his % is correct), everyone has their own idea as to what “better” means.
i cant link the interview but if you go to utube and search "john albanese cdn" you can listen to it. He gives you an idea of what he means by "better"
Comments
Wow, thanks everyone for your replies. I was worried when I posted this but everyone has stayed on point to the original question and the thread has not deteriorated!
For me personally, I buy mostly coins that have a sticker, this year I have averaged 83% and last year 71%. CAC does factor into my decision. First an inquiry is made why it doesn't have a sticker and if it was sent. Then I start to look why it didn't sticker. I like the extra CAC certification because, like it or not, the market drives the value and coins that CAC stickered are easier to sell and worth more in most cases. I'm not sure if it will stand the test of time but that's my reasoning now.
As the price of the coin increases, the chances increase until the chance approaches closer and closer to certainty.
At auction CAC coins bring comparatively higher prices. I assume honest dealers would pay more for CAC stickered material if they agree it's A or B quality. For a sight seen sale peel off the sticker just to see; i'ts still CAC.
There are many of us that are comfortable choosing and buying what we are confident in, many of us grade well, and are confident in our skills. Granted, that's good - however the issue at large today is the slab arena has mushroomed in numbers, exponentially since years back as have the venues to purchase like online.
There are many shady dealers, and almost every show let alone the many online sellers that have a number of purveyors of dreck and problem goods - overall all non stickered.
The point here that some are trying to make is while CAC is not totally foolproof, it is a major remover of doubt, and does add a often secure hedge against buying blind and future resale.
I'm in the same boat.
For coins eligible for a CAC, I’m at 100%! Like one of the earlier comments, my skills are nowhere that of JA. I want the CAC sticker to make it easier for my heirs to sell, and hopefully then receive pricing closer to “fair value”.
Due to the reality of today’s two-tier market of those with CAC’s and those without CAC’s, I believe that due to the bump in pricing for coins meriting a CAC, that most of these coins valued over $1,000 have been sent to CAC, since the cost is only $14.50. The question we should then all be asking ourselves of our coins valued at over $1,000, is WHY does it not have a CAC? Is it because it is not solid for the grade? Is it because the coin has been “treated” in such a way that JA deems not acceptable, but is OK with PCGS and NGC? As many of you know, gold coins get very few stickers as a percentage of those submitted. An example is the most common date 1904 Liberty Double Eagle. There are 12,641 of these graded MS65 (PCGS 5,499 NGC 7,142). However, only 465 of these 12,641 merit a CAC (less than 4%). For those of us not buying CAC coins that feel they have excellent grading skills (or those that “buy the coin and not the sticker”), why not pay the $14.50 to see if that coin you like so much merits a CAC? If indeed that coin truly merits a CAC, you’ll be handsomely rewarded with very significant increase in value for you or your heirs. Due to this price difference, I don’t see a logical explanation not to submit it, unless you fear the rejection (and then the confirmation) that your coin does not merit the CAC. I understand those choosing not to buy coins with CAC’s, but am flabbergasted as to why you would not pay $14.50 to submit considering the significant increase in value compared to the $14.50. If your coin does get rejected for a CAC, you might ask yourself (or JA) why it does not merit a CAC?
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
80-85%. I’ll buy non CAC if I understand why JA passed...and the value for the quality is there. Or if it really doesn’t matter like on the 1804 dollar
Great comments everyone! Thanks for responding.
Sticker guilt? Embrace the bean man!
I think another factor is to what extent price is an issue. If you can comfortably afford the coin you want (including the CAC premium), in the grade you want, and the coin is readily available in CAC, then it's pretty easy to buy only CAC. But if at your price point you have to choose between a VF-CAC and an XF-nonCAC and you want an XF coin, for example, then the "right" answer is less clear.
LIBERTY SEATED DIMES WITH MAJOR VARIETIES CIRCULATION STRIKES (1837-1891) digital album
.017 % CAC
The remainder is junk. And why I have a junkyard dog.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
100% when buying. My main set will hit 100% CAC when I can replace one coin.
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/gold/liberty-head-2-1-gold-major-sets/liberty-head-2-1-gold-basic-set-circulation-strikes-1840-1907-cac/alltimeset/268163
A sticker doesn't sway me...
As after all the years I only have 1 in my collection which was on the slab at time of purchase.
Less than 1%.
11% but the stickers are gone now.
My Saint Set
About 90%, if they do not sticker, I try to understand why. Then sell off those coins. I like buying PCGS/CAC at auction. Lots of added value hopefully at time of reselling. Its interesting if you think about the money involved. Postage both ways and grading fees to get coin in a holder. Then, postage both ways and sticker fee to get stickered. A sign of premium quality.
Probably less than 5%
Nothing I own not one CAC coin the auction are usually overpriced in my view I’ve got coins I’m sure would sticker but I don’t fell the need to reaffirm that with a tiny sticker
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/quarters/washington-quarters-major-sets/washington-quarters-date-set-circulation-strikes-1932-present/publishedset/209923
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/quarters/washington-quarters-major-sets/washington-quarters-date-set-circulation-strikes-1932-present/album/209923
You remove the stickers?
Seems you are asking more than a single question. Seems the more scientific approach would include raw coins and even those coins that are outside the scope of CAC.
CAC has a place so let's not elevate or diminish what that role should be.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
Of my gold set, 3 of the 12 are CAC, so 25%, of my non gold, nothing is stickered.
Two of the three, the sticker was basically free, no premium the $5 Lib, I paid full CAC Graysheet, but that might have had something to do with my trade, I'm cool with it though.
I'll pay a premium if the coin is all there, but not if it's run of the mill and I'm solely paying for the sticker.
My YouTube Channel
The great thing about all this is if you feel CAC provides a valuable service (identifies coins solid for the grade, helps avoid messed with coins, etc.) you have the option of collecting just CAC coins. If you feel CAC offers you nothing but just inflates the prices of coins, then you have your pick of all the non CAC coins at non inflated prices (and it is a big selection since most coins are not CAC). Win WIn.
0% and holding steady.
Smitten with DBLCs.
CAC provides a benefit for some US coins.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
No, I crossed them so they are in new holders.
Payed way more than I wanted to for one because of stupid bean.
My Saint Set
About 2/3 or 3/4, with the rest only items that I think would pass.
The serial numbers aren't.
Oops, I didn't see the crossover comment. I guess the serial numbers changed after all.
Maybe 10%? I honestly don't care when buying.
When it comes time to sell...some day...I'll probably look to CAC because the market likes JA. And I would expect 25% to sticker.
I disapprove of what he says. But I will defend to the death his right to judge coins.
Lance.
Kinda.
Why only 25%? With your eye, I would expect close to 100!
For my Morgan set, I buy probably 50% CAC. I also collect many coins which aren’t eligible or for which it doesn’t matter (coins which aren’t that expensive and/or I am going to crack them out for an album).
Personally, I've seen coins that got a pass on a sticker, then was cracked, upgraded and suddenly got a sticker. I ignore anything on the outside of the holder and focus only on the coin and label inside the holder.
Check out my iPhone app SlabReader!
Frankly for me I don’t care - view it like one RB a wrecking ball smash mouth archetype the other a speedster. My view is more in yards per carry not archetype. Both have contributed to my team.
Well lots of coins get cracked out and upgraded so why do you focus on the label inside the holder?
I have yet to buy a CAC coin as all my purchases are raw...Not interested in plastic unless I'm the one to submit!!
bob
+
PCGS says they've certified more than 40,000,000 pieces of coinage. NGC about 43,000,000. Numbers not verified, I'm going by memory. CAC in a most recent Greysheet ad announced they had evaluated 1.1 million coins. Mind you, they may not be all CAC eligible coins (like world coinage from PCGS and NGC), but let's go with it.
So, 1.1 million coins of over 83 million certified have even been to CAC. That number gets discounted because of world coins and ineligible coins, but the statistical merit remains. And then again you're listening to just one firm's opinion. So, as much as I HIGHLY RESPECT CAC, you're missing out on an awful lot of coins if you're only looking for CAC beans.
Brian Hodge
Partner, President of Numismatics
Minshull Trading
Thanks for that feedback Brian.
Keep in mind, that modern coins constitute a large portion of the reported PCGS and NGC populations and that CAC doesn’t review them.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Assuming that we exclude moderns and adjust for crack outs, cross overs, details coins, etc., wouldn't it be reasonable to believe that there are at least 10-15 million classic coins that are eligible for CAC submission? CAC has reviewed only 1.1 million coins which still leaves a lot of potential material out there. Keep in mind that a number of cheap coins (generic Peace, Morgans, WLH, Mercury Dimes, etc., in 66 and below) have been submitted and included in CAC's 1.1 million estimate too.
Without knowing how many moderns have been graded (edited to add: and generic gold coins which don’t merit submission to CAC) I wouldn’t want to comment on your estimate of how many coins might be eligible for CAC submission. That said, certainly, it’s got to be hefty multiples of the number that CAC has seen, thus far.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I misread the quoted post.
JA said in an interview that CAC has seen 80-90% of the better coins that have been in the market place in the last 23 years. He is in the best position to know.
His comment doesn’t mean much, unless we know how he he defines “better”. And even if we do know what he meant by that (and his % is correct), everyone has their own idea as to what “better” means.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
i cant link the interview but if you go to utube and search "john albanese cdn" you can listen to it. He gives you an idea of what he means by "better"
4:15
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xLyQ08q-J9U
My Saint Set