I do feel sorry for the people that get scammed, however I also feel that people should educate themselves about the things they are interested in. Kind of reminds me of the old adage, "fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice shame on me". If people educated themselves they would be less likely to get ripped off by fake coins and currency, and problem coins for that matter.
@topstuf said:
Most auctions allow returns for AUTHENTICITY problems.
Try making a return to an on-line auction site many years after the purchase and see what happens. The heirs are often the ones that get stuck with this junk since the original buyer never did know he/she bought fakes.
I don't buy coins on eBay but from what I've read some of the fakes are so good that even the pros are fooled sometimes. So, yes, I do feel sorry for a buyer being cheated whether he/she did their homework or not. It's very hard to become a subject matter expert without putting in thousands of hours of study of a particular coin series. Your best defense to getting scammed is to ask for advice here before you pull the trigger on a purchase.
Joe
Successful BST transactions with lordmarcovan, Moldnut, erwindoc
Do you still feel sorry for the bidders in these auction (assuming you ever did feel sorry for them) or do you have other feelings?
Yes. I was a regular eBay buyer, mainly looking for rare cherry-picks and eclectic items. Then came the flood of fakes, and fewer true auctions, and I left. The number of people burned from the fakes is in the tens of thousands, and I would expect most to have left the hobby before they had a chance to become knowledgeable collectors and numismatists.
Our hobby is shrinking as evidenced by ANA membership loss, common coin price declines, etc. Much of this can be attributed to counterfeits. The ANA can do much more. Colonel Ellsworth needs to take action.
Robert Scot: Engraving Liberty - biography of US Mint's first chief engraver
@Nysoto said:
Our hobby is shrinking as evidenced by ANA membership loss, common coin price declines, etc. Much of this can be attributed to counterfeits. The ANA can do much more. Colonel Ellsworth needs to take action.
Counterfeits on eBay is an area where there is a huge impact on the hobby but little visible action to address. It’s an interesting ongoing issue.
A number of people have indicated Steve is a great person for the job but cannot accomplish much change in the short, 2 year term.
Funny this thread came up. I was watching a documentary last night about a book written by Galileo. It had been authenticated by all the experts that deal in rare books by using the typical metrics (pressed lettering, paper, binding material, etc) as well as more modern techniques that measure chemical composition without physically touching the book. It was only a very astute historian familiar with the text that picked up on subtle differences (and similarities to existing volumes) that the book was subjected to C-14 dating... the book was faked using 20th C paper. It had always been thought (ie, assumed) by the experts that modern printing techniques and efforts at forgery couldn't produce something that looked like a 17th C book. It turns out, they were wrong.
In any venue where money is changing hands... whether antiques, or books, or coins... there's incentives to forgery and fraud. It doesn't matter if you're buying from a dealer, or a collector passing off his "mistake" on the next uneducated collector. As these phony collectibles invade the market, collectors need to become more aware at how to spot them, for sure, but there's going to come a point at which the forgeries will require some sort of advanced detection capability to spot... well beyond the limits of most avid collectors.
So, to the OP's question... in general, yes, I feel bad for those taken advantage of... to a point. If someone is buying an obvious fake just to say they paid a couple of hundred dollars on a five-figure coin... not so much. However, if someone has done their due diligence, bought a certified coin, and that coin later turns out to be fake... well, yes... I feel a bit worse. Because I can see myself walking in those shoes ("there but for the grace of the gods, go I").
I view counterfeiting as one of the most serious challenges to this hobby.
Collecting: Dansco 7070; Middle Date Large Cents (VF-AU); Box of 20;
Before eBay who got the blame the coin show dealer the coin shop the ad in the comic book(old time). The coin club. The buyer or the seller 🙀jzyskowski
I also saw the show on PBS. It is part of the "Secrets of the Dead" series and I believe the episode is titled "Galileo's Moon".
The "experts" missed some small but significant details, that, being "experts" they should have caught. I suspect they really wanted it to be genuine because it would have had such great significance. The fact that they failed to test the paper was unforgivable especially since I'm sure all of the "experts" were aware of the "Hitler Diaries" fraud of several decades ago. (The paper in the diaries was of a type that had not been produced until 1952.)
I think they didn't test the paper initially because it meant sacrificing a 1x1 square inch of paper. When material is C14 tested, you have to burn it to measure radioisotopes. I think they deferred to the so-called experts because they didn't want to destroy part of the book... which they ended up doing anyway.
Collecting: Dansco 7070; Middle Date Large Cents (VF-AU); Box of 20;
In general ther is no substitute for hands on experience before seeking out unslabbed and better date coins on eBay. While I feel bad for them, most should initially appreciate what is involved in evaluating coins. And that initial appreciation should serve as incentive to learn.
Coin shows are still the best place to develop coin skills.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
Yes I do. It’s not always greedy people looking for a too good to be true deal, sometimes it’s earnest collectors that are just ripped off. My exWives grandmother collected and was very proud of her completed sets of Lincoln cents, Buffalo nickels and Washington quarters in Whitman folders. She was on a fixed income, lived in a medium sized town in Mo and didn’t have internet access. Most of the coins were pulled from circulation but the keys were all purchased from a couple local shops or mail order. When the exW inherited the albums, I sent the keys in for certification. Every single one was counterfeit or altered dates/mint marks.
Comments
Most auctions allow returns for AUTHENTICITY problems.
I do feel sorry for the people that get scammed, however I also feel that people should educate themselves about the things they are interested in. Kind of reminds me of the old adage, "fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice shame on me". If people educated themselves they would be less likely to get ripped off by fake coins and currency, and problem coins for that matter.
Try making a return to an on-line auction site many years after the purchase and see what happens. The heirs are often the ones that get stuck with this junk since the original buyer never did know he/she bought fakes.
I don't buy coins on eBay but from what I've read some of the fakes are so good that even the pros are fooled sometimes. So, yes, I do feel sorry for a buyer being cheated whether he/she did their homework or not. It's very hard to become a subject matter expert without putting in thousands of hours of study of a particular coin series. Your best defense to getting scammed is to ask for advice here before you pull the trigger on a purchase.
Joe
Successful BST transactions with lordmarcovan, Moldnut, erwindoc
Yes. I was a regular eBay buyer, mainly looking for rare cherry-picks and eclectic items. Then came the flood of fakes, and fewer true auctions, and I left. The number of people burned from the fakes is in the tens of thousands, and I would expect most to have left the hobby before they had a chance to become knowledgeable collectors and numismatists.
Our hobby is shrinking as evidenced by ANA membership loss, common coin price declines, etc. Much of this can be attributed to counterfeits. The ANA can do much more. Colonel Ellsworth needs to take action.
Counterfeits on eBay is an area where there is a huge impact on the hobby but little visible action to address. It’s an interesting ongoing issue.
A number of people have indicated Steve is a great person for the job but cannot accomplish much change in the short, 2 year term.
Funny this thread came up. I was watching a documentary last night about a book written by Galileo. It had been authenticated by all the experts that deal in rare books by using the typical metrics (pressed lettering, paper, binding material, etc) as well as more modern techniques that measure chemical composition without physically touching the book. It was only a very astute historian familiar with the text that picked up on subtle differences (and similarities to existing volumes) that the book was subjected to C-14 dating... the book was faked using 20th C paper. It had always been thought (ie, assumed) by the experts that modern printing techniques and efforts at forgery couldn't produce something that looked like a 17th C book. It turns out, they were wrong.
In any venue where money is changing hands... whether antiques, or books, or coins... there's incentives to forgery and fraud. It doesn't matter if you're buying from a dealer, or a collector passing off his "mistake" on the next uneducated collector. As these phony collectibles invade the market, collectors need to become more aware at how to spot them, for sure, but there's going to come a point at which the forgeries will require some sort of advanced detection capability to spot... well beyond the limits of most avid collectors.
So, to the OP's question... in general, yes, I feel bad for those taken advantage of... to a point. If someone is buying an obvious fake just to say they paid a couple of hundred dollars on a five-figure coin... not so much. However, if someone has done their due diligence, bought a certified coin, and that coin later turns out to be fake... well, yes... I feel a bit worse. Because I can see myself walking in those shoes ("there but for the grace of the gods, go I").
I view counterfeiting as one of the most serious challenges to this hobby.
Successful BST transactions with: SilverEagles92; Ahrensdad; Smitty; GregHansen; Lablade; Mercury10c; copperflopper; whatsup; KISHU1; scrapman1077, crispy, canadanz, smallchange, robkool, Mission16, ranshdow, ibzman350, Fallguy, Collectorcoins, SurfinxHI, jwitten, Walkerguy21D, dsessom.
Before eBay who got the blame the coin show dealer the coin shop the ad in the comic book(old time). The coin club. The buyer or the seller 🙀jzyskowski
🎶 shout shout, let it all out 🎶
I also saw the show on PBS. It is part of the "Secrets of the Dead" series and I believe the episode is titled "Galileo's Moon".
The "experts" missed some small but significant details, that, being "experts" they should have caught. I suspect they really wanted it to be genuine because it would have had such great significance. The fact that they failed to test the paper was unforgivable especially since I'm sure all of the "experts" were aware of the "Hitler Diaries" fraud of several decades ago. (The paper in the diaries was of a type that had not been produced until 1952.)
The show is highly interesting!
I think they didn't test the paper initially because it meant sacrificing a 1x1 square inch of paper. When material is C14 tested, you have to burn it to measure radioisotopes. I think they deferred to the so-called experts because they didn't want to destroy part of the book... which they ended up doing anyway.
Successful BST transactions with: SilverEagles92; Ahrensdad; Smitty; GregHansen; Lablade; Mercury10c; copperflopper; whatsup; KISHU1; scrapman1077, crispy, canadanz, smallchange, robkool, Mission16, ranshdow, ibzman350, Fallguy, Collectorcoins, SurfinxHI, jwitten, Walkerguy21D, dsessom.
In general ther is no substitute for hands on experience before seeking out unslabbed and better date coins on eBay. While I feel bad for them, most should initially appreciate what is involved in evaluating coins. And that initial appreciation should serve as incentive to learn.
Coin shows are still the best place to develop coin skills.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
Yes I do. It’s not always greedy people looking for a too good to be true deal, sometimes it’s earnest collectors that are just ripped off. My exWives grandmother collected and was very proud of her completed sets of Lincoln cents, Buffalo nickels and Washington quarters in Whitman folders. She was on a fixed income, lived in a medium sized town in Mo and didn’t have internet access. Most of the coins were pulled from circulation but the keys were all purchased from a couple local shops or mail order. When the exW inherited the albums, I sent the keys in for certification. Every single one was counterfeit or altered dates/mint marks.