Why would you do this to an OGH now someone is playing catch
oldstandard
Posts: 387 ✭✭✭
This is surprising to me I had owned this coin many moons ago and is a solid 64 nothing more and the trusty CAC agreed once again but then change their mind as always. I would of left this coin in the old holder A 65+ in the new holder does nothing I feel to added more value to the coin I would think it would bring the value down. The coin is a very nice $550 coin I am not sure if these are real or just someone trying to get back out of the first mistake seems very strange to say the least.
https://greatcollections.com/Coin/666647/1883-O-Morgan-Silver-Dollar-PCGS-MS-64-CAC-OGH-Toned
https://greatcollections.com/Coin/682995/1883-O-Morgan-Silver-Dollar-PCGS-MS-65-CAC-Toned
https://greatcollections.com/Coin/709042/1883-O-Morgan-Silver-Dollar-PCGS-MS-65-Toned
Comments
Typically with high end Morgan toners, there is a huge increase in premium starting around gem which was probably the logic in moving it from the OGH 64 CAC to a 65+ holder. I don't think this coin is the neon, tip top quality monster that is the beneficiary of that kind of increase though and obviously it lost value due to underestimating the OGH premium. It also looks like the coin was regraded again perhaps in hopes of a bump to 66 which would bring a few hundred to maybe a thousand or so more. When that failed, they submitted it to CAC hoping for a pay day.
This thread is an excellent reminder that the crack out game is very risky in this market even when you are successful in the upgrade. Plastic and stickers matter too much, and it is difficult to figure out what the particular bidders in your case are going to be influenced most by.
To me, the color looks better than a “$550 coin”, whether it’s graded 64 or 65+. And no one “change their mind as always.”
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
In my opinion, that’s better than $550 toning. Kinda a shame that coin was cracked out; I’d say it had more value and was more interesting in the OGH at 64.
Always buying nice toned coins! Searching for a low grade 1873 Arrows DDO Dime and 1842-O Small Date Quarter.
The price is just an opinion I paid $400 for it in 2012 has a good look a lot more hits you can see in hand then pictures. This coin was sent to CAC two times in the OGH and yes they did change their mind or it would have been a gold sticker. When I bought the coin the sticker was in rough shape so instead of doing a resticker a cleaned it of and sent it for regrade and later place a phone call for reconsider and nothing they agreed solid 64. lots of luster but to many hits for a higher grade I agree but thought it was worth a try.
Although I’m not a Toned Coin Specialist, I appreciate attractive Toning, and have always thought that such a coin in a vintage slab demonstrates a certain amount of Color Stability over time (since when it was slabbed) and may also provide some provenance information.
You can lose both of the above vintage slab reference points when placing that same coin in a newer generation holder.
Stuart
Collect 18th & 19th Century US Type Coins, Silver Dollars, $20 Gold Double Eagles and World Crowns & Talers with High Eye Appeal
"Luck is what happens when Preparation meets Opportunity"
I never said CAC didn’t change their mind. I stated that (contrary to what you wrote) no one “changed their mind as always.” That’s quite different.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Sorry my bad, When I bought the coin the sticker was in rough shape so instead of doing a resticker I cleaned it off and sent it for regrade and later place a phone call for reconsider and nothing they agreed solid 64. lots of luster but to many hits for a higher grade I agree but thought it was worth a try.
It's a shame they never dipped it between the crack outs. She is in desperate need of a bath. Congrats!
Why is it a shame it was cracked out? It's the same coin, isn't it?
That's pretty cool toning. And $500-$600 seems cheap for that. In any case the auction has another day to go. Sometimes a coin being fresh is what drives the price. Once this was reholdered all that was LOST.
I understand but if you look at the coin and I have held it in hand and a conversation with CAC the coin is a solid 64. I have been very disappointed with what has gone on in the industry I feel all 3rd party services could do a lot better job in helping us protect the hobby who here would call this coin a 65 look at the cheek and fields they really thought it would 66 with another crack out??? I remember the day you where lucky to get a 65 with a mark on the cheek but everyone would comment about the small mark on the cheek and say it is not a true 65. I was hoping for the same to be honest when I summited it to CAC since the standards have change I was hoping for a gold sticker but was very happy that CAC was controlling an over grade and agreed it was a standard 64 which it is a true 64 super luster but way to many hits for a 65 kind of disappointing I know I could never crack that out and get a 65 maybe the right person could which they did and also got CAC to change their mind once and now it does not have a CAC sticker maybe the owner is just going to cut their loses I would be very surprised if someone thought that would go into a 66 holder look at the coin it does have new PcGS numbers each time a 66 really I would never even dream of a 65 and would feel 65+ was a lottery win.
CAC stickering that as a 65 is one way of saying they would buy it at their market for MS65's. Which for this date is normally around $120-$150.
I'd think that a $120 difference isn't a lot of change in value. Looks like a 5% natural variation. certainly not a profitable change tho.
Maybe from a price guide perspective. Many toned coin collectors do consider the grade. Put another way, my experience is that the buyers with the deepest pockets and those most likely to bid it up are mainly look for gems or better. There are some exceptions.
Color bumpage is real. I don't care for it either. I will say that PCGS is less likely to bump by more than a point than it was 3-4 years ago.
There's different perspectives here and I'll bet more yet to come, but in the end......
.....I like this one.
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.
I was comparing the hammer prices of the first 2 links.
In 6 weeks though. Plus the fees.
I likwly would have went an increment, two, or three had I seen the coin the third time around, but likely would have dropped out of the chase the first two times offered. Really attractive imo regardless of the grade.
I think something like this shows the mentality of some collectors. the identical coin in three holder formats apparently is able to influence how a bidder views the Coin and what it is worth.
MS64 OGH w/green CAC sticker --- nostalgic holder with upgrade potential.
MS65+ fresh holder w/green CAC sticker --- nice TV's, one grade + higher and more potential(yet a lower price).
MS65+ regraded --- an assumption that it was rejected by CAC, the coin is maxed out(probably sub $1,500).
to me it displays how collectors can have a fondness for everything attached to the coin over-and-above the coin itself. the color is quite nice and surprisingly not on an '81-S or some other typical date, but it doesn't seem AS appealing when there's no "gambler incentive" attached to it.
also, why regrade the thing and sell it at the same venue in such a short time frame?? that doesn't make sense.
and yes they did change their mind or it would have been a gold sticker.
No, that’s not how it works. John’s not gonna give a gold sticker for a B coin the next grade up. That’s reality. Once it goes up, it green stickers again.
Then he isn't honoring his announced standards.
Truth.
And the value of this coin is based on the value of the toning the day it sells.
Pretty coin btw.
My 1866 Philly Mint Set
I see, so you saying they bumped it a grade due to the over all look of the coin with the color
This is the part that I get confused on so help me out if john had it in hand and you say it is a B coin and he agrees so he gives it a green bean then how does it change it a better coin to CAC eyes after they agreed it was a solid 64 and would never qualify for a 65 coin?? The coin really is a nice 64 now the grading company calls it for what ever reason a 65+ why does that change Johns eyes on the coin it should be a 64 like they said nothing has change on the coin but the grade gift to someone from the grading company no doubt. I thought this was the reason everyone thinks CAC was needed the coin is still a 64 and it is and should not change in CAC eyes no matter what the grade on the holder. If you would comment back would be great just curious on this an how you view it.
You need to re-read what I posted
His announced standards for receiving a gold sticker are very nebulous. The way I interpret them is the coin must exceed CAC standards for the next grade up....ie: be a no doubter A coin for the next grade. This jives with his public and private comments concerning the gold sticker.
It what you posted stated anywhere on the CAC website?
Oldstandard misinterpreted what I posted. He needs to re-read my verbiage exactly
64 B or A coin in a 64 holder - green
65 B coin in a 64 holder - green
65 A coin in a 64 holder - gold
This is why a green CAC coin can upgrade and receive the green sticker again. JA is super tight on gold stickers
That's fine, im sure hes working on that. But does the CAC website state what you are saying?
And where does the PCGS + sign fit into the CAC equation? Is that answer stated on the CAC website too?
One thing I know for sure:
Even JA has shifted a bit on what gets a sticker. CAC has been around for 10 years and you can see how it seems the standard has
changed. I ve looked at enough auction records. Back in the day 2/3 of pcgs coins would seem to sticker as you would expect. Now, it seems like it takes B+ and A to get the sticker. As usual, it leaves us all trying to make sense of it all.
Why don’t you peruse it and see?
Well I'm clearly looking in the wrong place. Because all I can see is what im pasting below. But you are saying A LOT more. So I am wondering, where does one go to see what you are saying is to be the case?
For many years, coin dealers and advanced collectors have used the letters A, B, and C among themselves to further describe coins. C indicates low-end for the grade, B indicates solid for the grade, and A indicates high-end. CAC will only award stickers to coins in the A or B category. C coins, although accurately graded, will be returned without a CAC sticker
Yes.
I think John went on record somewhere (or maybe it was a phone conversation in the past) that a gold CAC supposedly was solid for the next grade up. That said I agree with your observations. Usually a coin receives a gold sticker when it looks absolutely stupid in its current holder.
The coin has sold for $2,025 w/ BP at 6:10 PST today.
Always buying nice toned coins! Searching for a low grade 1873 Arrows DDO Dime and 1842-O Small Date Quarter.
Same coin resubmitted & reholdered 2x in the last 4 months ??? WOW !!!
What a total dolt! It previously stickered at 65+ and then he regrades it. It fails to upgrade but he doesn't send it to CAC before selling it again? He deserves to take a bath on that one.
I have a feeling this won’t be the last we see of this coin.
Choice Numismatics www.ChoiceCoin.com
CN eBay
All of my collection is in a safe deposit box!
How do you know he didn't send it? Maybe it just didn't CAC the second time.
Fair point, but I think it is unlikely. It recently stickered and is consistent with other CAC toners. Also, if he sent the original images from GC in with it, I'm sure John would have stickered it again.
And how do you know that someone else didn’t own the coin the second and/or third time it was auctioned?
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Probability. It sold March 17th and was relisted in a new holder on May 13, 2019. During that time, it had to:
1. Travel to the initial buyer.
2. Travel to PCGS.
3. Go through PCGS grading.
4. Travel back to the buyer.
5. Travel to GC.
6. Be re-cataloged/imaged by GC (takes 1-2 weeks on average).
Sorry I see what you were saying yes after it has went up it would only get a green my bad
since we're trying to figure out if our Aunt might really be our Uncle it is entirely possible that GC sent the coin everywhere for a single owner. I think they'll submit coins for a consignor, right??
Awfully baggy for a 65+ holder. Color bumpage should not be a thing.