Another newbie CAC question .

jkrk · April 12, 2019 2:40PM

Should a non CAC MS64+ sell for the same price as a MS 64 that was passed by CAC (all things being equal)?

robec · April 12, 2019 2:42PM

CAC ignores any + on the grade.

TomB · April 12, 2019 2:42PM

There is no set correlation. Apples. Oranges. Buy the coin and price the coin.

ReadyFireAim · April 12, 2019 3:57PM

I'd much rather have a + than a CAC

illini420 · April 12, 2019 5:30PM

MS64 < MS64 CAC < MS64+ < MS64+ CAC

ScarsdaleCoin · April 12, 2019 5:57PM

Using the above logic a MS64 coin that does not CAC could be reholdered as a MS63 Coin with a CAC. Lol hence the value should be mathematically coefficient to the spread between grades. Insert sarcasm smiley face here as I’m just playing with ya

oih82w8 · April 12, 2019 6:23PM

@ReadyFireAim said:
I'd much rather have a + than a CAC

It's nice to have both! 1936-D San Diego Commemorative Half PCGS MS66+ CAC

Cougar1978 · April 13, 2019 8:19AM

For non CAC MS64+ I take the premium factor in TPG Pg (ms64+ Val / ms64 Val) x CDN bid for ms64 x my markup factor to get my selling price. Or simply TPG PG MS64 plus can be basis for ask price.

For a CAC ms64+ I do the same but input the CAC bid (from the sheet) into the markup equation instead.

Alternatively you could take CPG for the CAC 64 and mult times the TPG 64 plus premium factor. I adhere to the grade on the Holder.

I use spreadsheet which has descr, cost, bid, target sell price, sell price basis (TPG, CW, CDN based, or other like cost plus,etc). For CDN based that bid value x markup factor equals sell. On slab code for cost, CDN bid, target sell price. I also analyze CPG vs CDN bid to understand their pricing, sync muf where applicable.

I am not set in concrete and factors like super toning, pedigree, or rarity can influence / increase pricing further.

CAC coins for me (separate inventory class) like valuing a house w pool vs one without. Or like a new Ford mustang which has been to the mod shop.

For extremely scarce / rare Coins the asking price for stickered coins can be subjective and quite more.

logger7 · April 13, 2019 8:56AM

There are many + coins that will not cac. I always had a hard time getting pluses.

jkrk · April 14, 2019 7:33AM

@logger7 said:
There are many + coins that will not cac. I always had a hard time getting pluses.

As I understand it.... The original graders are assigning the grade and CAC is supplying a second opinion of where on the spectrum the coin falls within the numeric grade. There is a bit of subjectivity involved thus neither has more weight in terms of the final price?

My thinking, therefore is that the + or the CAC label coin should sell for the same price. Both are saying that the coin is a higher rated specimen for the assigned grade.

Would it be any different if CAC assigned the grade and the grading services provided a second opinion with a label?

Thanks all for the feedback.

winesteven · April 14, 2019 9:06AM

@jkrk said:

My thinking, therefore is that the + or the CAC label coin should sell for the same price. Both are saying that the coin is a higher rated specimen for the assigned grade.

Thanks all for the feedback.

Actually, they're not equivalent, since PCGS numbers indicate they assign a plus grade to only about 2% or so of coins submitted, whereas CAC says a coin will merit the sticker if it's an A or B coin, with good surfaces (not messed with). This results in a higher percentage of coins qualifying for a CAC than a Plus. While CAC does not recognize plus grades, a coin with a CAC and a Plus is not duplicitous, but a wonderful addition to a collection, as long as the owner likes the eye appeal, which is the most important factor.

Cougar1978 · April 14, 2019 9:22AM

An ms64 plus coin is worth more than a non plus 64 and PCGS CF confirms this.

Either with a sticker will have an additional tack on.

However buyers will pick the one they like most in terms of price and quality whether CAC or not. Examine a group of Coins sight seen recommended.

For Double Eagles buyers at shows after material close to melt they like. Usually nice slabbed MS63-64. No sticker necessary and they will not pay premium for sticker. This material is competing (and often losing) against higher AGW 1oz (slabbed 69 ASE, AGB) beautiful coins close to melt many with much lower pop.

I have been seeking nice slabbed $20 Lib in 64 and 65 around CDN bid (sight seen) I probably would pay a premium say $25 to $50 for a really PQ CAC one but that’s it (and it has to have a blast of super luster or pizazz that stands out not some done dull or hazy toned one and be spot free).

Coinstartled · April 14, 2019 11:14AM

@jkrk said:

Should a non CAC MS64+ sell for the same price as a MS 64 that was passed by CAC (all things being equal)?

It should but is dependent on the coin. I am mystified a bit by the number of higher priced PCGS + plus graded coins at auction that do not have a sticker.

This is a good hobby to be exiting.

Gazes · April 14, 2019 1:33PM

@Coinstartled said:

@jkrk said:

This is a good hobby to be exiting.

I couldn't disagree more. This is an amazing hobby and I am so glad to have it.

thefinn · April 14, 2019 3:15PM

For some it is a hobby, for others a business. And a few, both.
Price according.

Coinstartled · April 14, 2019 3:23PM

@Gazes said:

@Coinstartled said:

@jkrk said:

This is a good hobby to be exiting.

I couldn't disagree more. This is an amazing hobby and I am so glad to have it.

If we all rushed the exits it would be mayhem so the disagree is a good thing.

Essentially the most highly respected grader, is not. The situation puts every higher value non stickered coin in question.

Either of two solutions would benefit the hobby.

database of all coins submitted, not just the winners.
CAC goes all in as a third party grader and competes head to head with PGGS instead of being an add on.

Don't expect either to occur, but still worth stating.

winesteven · April 14, 2019 7:29PM

@Coinstartled said:

@Gazes said:

@Coinstartled said:

This is a good hobby to be exiting.

I couldn't disagree more. This is an amazing hobby and I am so glad to have it.

If we all rushed the exits it would be mayhem so the disagree is a good thing.

Essentially the most highly respected grader, is not. The situation puts every higher value non stickered coin in question.

>
Actually, in my mind, higher valued non stickered coins SHOULD be put in question. To me, either they’re “C” coins, and/or something was going on with the surface. Yes, each of us makes our own decision, but for me, I won’t purchase a high valued coin without a CAC, as I don’t want “C” coins in my collection, nor coins that have had something done to the surface.

Coinstartled · April 14, 2019 7:32PM

@winesteven said:

@Coinstartled said:

@Gazes said:

@Coinstartled said:

This is a good hobby to be exiting.

I couldn't disagree more. This is an amazing hobby and I am so glad to have it.

If we all rushed the exits it would be mayhem so the disagree is a good thing.

Essentially the most highly respected grader, is not. The situation puts every higher value non stickered coin in question.

>
Actually, in my mind, higher valued non stickered coins SHOULD be put in question. To me, either they’re “C” coins, and/or something was going on with the surface. Yes, each of us makes our own decision, but for me, I won’t purchase a high valued coin without a CAC, as I don’t want “C” coins in my collection, nor coins that have had something done to the surface.

That perception and maybe reality is what i am referring to. PCGS coin, graded by the top tpg in the business is discounted in value because it has not received a secondary seal of approval. I believe that to be a negative for collectors.

winesteven · April 14, 2019 7:40PM

@Coinstartled - I agree with you 100% that today’s market has changed from several years ago exactly because of this. You hit the nail on the head, and we’re on the same page. “High value” coins without a CAC have indeed dropped in value, sometimes significantly, where today’s market, like it or not, for coins graded by PCGS with CAC’s is stronger.

Aotearoa · April 14, 2019 7:53PM

@winesteven said:

Actually, in my mind, higher valued non stickered coins SHOULD be put in question. To me, either they’re “C” coins, and/or something was going on with the surface. Yes, each of us makes our own decision, but for me, I won’t purchase a high valued coin without a CAC, as I don’t want “C” coins in my collection, nor coins that have had something done to the surface.

This is the bit that I've never understood (and I don't mean to pick on you @winesteven). Shouldn't a 65C be a nicer coin than a 64A or 64B? If so, why would anyone hesitate to own the higher-graded, non-CACed coin? (Assuming the surfaces have not been "messed with".)

winesteven · April 14, 2019 8:24PM

@Aotearoa said:

@winesteven said:

Actually, in my mind, higher valued non stickered coins SHOULD be put in question. To me, either they’re “C” coins, and/or something was going on with the surface. Yes, each of us makes our own decision, but for me, I won’t purchase a high valued coin without a CAC, as I don’t want “C” coins in my collection, nor coins that have had something done to the surface.

This is the bit that I've never understood (and I don't mean to pick on you @winesteven). Shouldn't a 65C be a nicer coin than a 64A or 64B? If so, why would anyone hesitate to own the higher-graded, non-CACed coin? (Assuming the surfaces have not been "messed with".)

Yes, I agree, but I’m under the impression that as a generalization the 65C will usually be a lot more expensive than a 64A or 64B.

Here’s a true example that happened with me in my collection that’s not exactly on this point, and has nothing to do with values, but interesting nonetheless. I received this generic advice from Legend, and to me it makes sense. For one of my Type Sets, I have a 66+ that’s a “Wow” coin, and was considering upgrading it to a “nice” coin I saw that was a 67 and within my budget. I decided to keep the 66+, and have never regretted that decision.

Another newbie CAC question .

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