Possible 1820 JR-7 bust dime cud
NSP
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I have collected capped bust dimes for awhile, and have seen many pictures of cuds on these coins. This evening I came across photos of an 1820 JR-7 bust dime with what I believe may be an obverse cud at stars 4 and 5. This is NOT my coin, but I asked the owner’s permission to post it here.
I have seen/heard of cuds on JR-6 and JR-10, but I have never heard of any cuds on JR-7. Has anyone here seen a cud like this? Here are photos of the coin:
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Comments
Looks like a cud to me.
Better buy it for more research. Or if you don’t want it.........I would take it.
A: The year they spend more on their library than their coin collection.
A numismatist is judged more on the content of their library than the content of their cabinet.
The owner found it while metal detecting and said he doesn’t sell his finds. It sounds like he may have found a winner!
From my experience, bulges usually do not appear this sharp. The Early United States Dime book also does not mention any bulges known for this die marriage.
DUDE! That's a CUD!
I humbly disagree!
I hope you've found a new die state, but my humble guess is that it is not a cud. It looks almost right in the pics, but the "top" of the cud by star 5 and the reverse opposite the cud do not look quite right. It could just be obscured by grainy pics or wear though. Better pics would be awesome and I hope I'm wrong!
I would prefer to be wrong (in this case), but I have a suspicion of solder for a pin attachment or similar, since the "cudness" can be seen on both sides. Of course, if earlier die states with a crack at that location are known, that would change things.
Ed. S.
(EJS)
The hole kills it for me.
The owner of the coin pointed out another JR-7 on eBay with a similar feature, but the eBay coin appears to have a die bulge and not a cud. The borders of the defect appear to match the borders of the defect in the OP coin. So now I’m thinking it could just be a very well defined die bulge, which is a real bummer. Here are pictures of the other JR-7:
This Heritage auction of 1820 JR-7 states "Early die state before the obverse sinks near star four." Evidently this is a known die bulge for the DM. You may want to post on JR News to get specialist opinions.
https://coins.ha.com/itm/bust-dimes/dimes/1820-10c-small-0-jr-7-r2-xf45-ngc-nicely-centered-with-full-dentils-on-both-the-obverse-and-reverse-light-gray-with-a/a/390-22155.s?ic4=ListView-ShortDescription-071515
The OP's photo shows a cud, or
possibly a retained cud, die break.
John McCloskey published 2 articles in the John Reich Journal on capped bust dime die bulges, July 1992 and a more comprehensive article that lists die marriages in July 2003, "Bulges on Early Capped Bust Dimes." These can be viewed on the NNP.
The "die bulges" are actually sunken areas of working dies "collapsed due to metal fatigue" that appear as bulges on coins. They appear to be mostly limited to capped bust dimes from 1811 to 1823, I have not seen them on other series in that time period, or on draped bust dimes 1796-1807 which I collected by die marriage. In lower grade, they can appear as cuds on some bulges that have a sharp outline definition.
In his July 2003 JRJ article, McCloskey identifies known bulges on 1820 capped bust dimes - JR-1, JR-4, JR-6, JR-8, JR-9, JR-10, and JR-13. All have obverse bulges, except JR-13 which has obverse and reverse bulges. McCloskey did not include 1820 JR-7 in his article list of bulges for that year.
Die bulges are known on early quarters also. 1806 B10 would be one example. Reverse bulge. Strange that they are so much more prevalent on the dimes though.
LOL!
Interesting thread. Thanks for sharing.
Huh?
Thank you all for the replies so far! It’s very odd that the OP JR-7 looks like it has a cud but the EBay JR-7 looks more like a die bulge (at least that’s how it looks to me). Is there any way that a die bulge could have eventually turned into a cud? It may seem like a silly question, but the appearances of the two coins may warrant it.
I believe the underlying causes of the two different abnormalities, cud’s and bulges, are different and thusly I do not believe a bulge can become a cud. I know of no other example in any series where a bulge becomes a cud and as there are many bulges known I would suggest this helps prove my theory. Also, if you look at the edges of the questionable area in th OP’s photo, it looks more like an edge of a crack than the edge of a bulge. See how well the edge of the raised area is defined?
All in all, I would be willing to buy this as a cud, or retained cud break.
A: The year they spend more on their library than their coin collection.
A numismatist is judged more on the content of their library than the content of their cabinet.