The 71 Rose card is a tough one to find centered. Found one last summer at the National that Jeff had in his booth and did not even ask the price it was so nice - just said i will take it so please put it aside. Trying to find a Bench, Clemente, and Reggie to go with it.
@PROMETHIUS88 said:
Just wait until you see the 66 Topps Baseball series 6 pack they are opening tonight at $275/spot!!
A bunch of mostly OC 1966 6th series commons plus an OC Wilhelm and an OC Checklist. A few nice commons that probably will be 8s. $275/card is a lot to pay for that.
The inventory of vintage unopened continues to be reduced by this activity, driving up the prices of what remains untouched.
@PROMETHIUS88 said:
Just wait until you see the 66 Topps Baseball series 6 pack they are opening tonight at $275/spot!!
A bunch of mostly OC 1966 6th series commons plus an OC Wilhelm and an OC Checklist. A few nice commons that probably will be 8s. $275/card is a lot to pay for that.
The inventory of vintage unopened continues to be reduced by this activity, driving up the prices of what remains untouched.
As mentioned before, when are we going to see 81-87 unopened skyrocket? Figure it is just a matter of time.
@PROMETHIUS88 said:
Just wait until you see the 66 Topps Baseball series 6 pack they are opening tonight at $275/spot!!
A bunch of mostly OC 1966 6th series commons plus an OC Wilhelm and an OC Checklist. A few nice commons that probably will be 8s. $275/card is a lot to pay for that.
The inventory of vintage unopened continues to be reduced by this activity, driving up the prices of what remains untouched.
As mentioned before, when are we going to see 81-87 unopened skyrocket? Figure it is just a matter of time.
Wishful thinking.
Starting in the late 70s the production volumes went way up relative to what was produced in the 1960s and early-mid 1970s. I've always considered 1977 as the last year where the supply side is restricted. Just look at the PSA pop reports for high-end stars beyond the Henderson RC in 1980 and you can see for yourself that there just aren't enough "5-figure" cards in the 1981-1987 era that will justify the kinds of price increases we are seeing in the older unopened market.
And these are the “skeletal” remains of 1970, 1971 and 1972 cellos from my childhood.
😉
I would be interested in one of the empty 71T cello boxes for a fair price if you are willing to part with one. I have been eyeing a few on EBAY, but would rather buy from someone on the board if possible. I'm also looking for a 71T wax wrapper, but the last few I have seen were outrageously priced. Maybe this belongs on the BST thread lol.
It’s funny, a couple of years ago these player-header racks sat on eBay for months with no takers at a fraction of this price. Now suddenly it’s worth $5K +? Ridiculous.
@PaulMaul said:
It’s funny, a couple of years ago these player-header racks sat on eBay for months with no takers at a fraction of this price. Now suddenly it’s worth $5K +? Ridiculous.
That was before the Vintagebreaks rip at $250/slot (over $13k for the pack). This one also has BBCE authentication, whereas many of the player-header racks that used to sit on eBay were unverified.
But this was exactly the point of the other thread I started. These "breaks" have caused supply of vintage material to dry up and also have people paying much higher prices than we were seeing 18-24 months ago.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
@70ToppsFanatic said:
That series 5 rack doesn't have nearly the potential of the series 1 rack, and that is regardless of the collation sequence of both packs.
But just as a warning, I will say that the yellow header card racks were definitely the first ones that were distributed in 1971.
It would be interesting to learn the backstory of the 71 racks with the player header cards. We know they are legit racks as far as following card sequencing off the sheets but they have no Topps trademark or product information anywhere on the rack or anything that indicates they were for retail sale. I don't know of anyone who remembers them being for sale in a retail setting, either. This is one of the long-standing mysteries of 1970s unopened product.
One thing to be wary of, however, is that these racks are far more plentiful than those with yellow Topps header cards because they are easier to fabricate as it's much tougher to find a Topps header card from 1971 vs a player card.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
@70ToppsFanatic said:
That series 5 rack doesn't have nearly the potential of the series 1 rack, and that is regardless of the collation sequence of both packs.
But just as a warning, I will say that the yellow header card racks were definitely the first ones that were distributed in 1971.
It would be interesting to learn the backstory of the 71 racks with the player header cards. We know they are legit racks as far as following card sequencing off the sheets but they have no Topps trademark or product information anywhere on the rack or anything that indicates they were for retail sale. I don't know of anyone who remembers them being for sale in a retail setting, either. This is one of the long-standing mysteries of 1970s unopened product.
We know that SOME are legitimate. We also know that some are definitely not.
@70ToppsFanatic said:
That series 5 rack doesn't have nearly the potential of the series 1 rack, and that is regardless of the collation sequence of both packs.
But just as a warning, I will say that the yellow header card racks were definitely the first ones that were distributed in 1971.
It would be interesting to learn the backstory of the 71 racks with the player header cards. We know they are legit racks as far as following card sequencing off the sheets but they have no Topps trademark or product information anywhere on the rack or anything that indicates they were for retail sale. I don't know of anyone who remembers them being for sale in a retail setting, either. This is one of the long-standing mysteries of 1970s unopened product.
We know that SOME are legitimate. We also know that some are definitely not.
Agreed; that is why I added the second paragraph to my post above.
That is also the case with any vintage rack from any year but especially true for 1971 due to the header cards.
However, the back story is what I'd truly like to find out about.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
We also know that they did not run out of the yellow header cards, as they were also used in 1972 and 1973 and had the same 1970 product code as those used in 1970 and 1971
@70ToppsFanatic said:
We also know that they did not run out of the yellow header cards, as they were also used in 1972 and 1973 and had the same 1970 product code as those used in 1970 and 1971
1971 was also a transitional year as Topps began utilizing the crosshatch punch hole with 4th series in 1971 instead of the larger circular punch hole previously used. 1971 header cards in the early series were typically one-sided with graphics, too.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
@PaulMaul said:
So this rack is worth more than 10 PSA 8 Ryans....yeah, OK.
It's worth what someone is willing to pay for it. But at $250/card in a break it comes to $13,250 so there seems to be plenty of headroom if that is it's ultimate destiny.
@PaulMaul said:
So this rack is worth more than 10 PSA 8 Ryans....yeah, OK.
It's worth what someone is willing to pay for it. But at $250/card in a break it comes to $13,250 so there seems to be plenty of headroom if that is it's ultimate destiny.
Well, that certainly demonstrates how foolish participating at that price point is.
@PaulMaul said:
So this rack is worth more than 10 PSA 8 Ryans....yeah, OK.
It's worth what someone is willing to pay for it. But at $250/card in a break it comes to $13,250 so there seems to be plenty of headroom if that is it's ultimate destiny.
I'm fairly certain that will be the case.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
@PaulMaul said:
If someone has $250 to burn and finds it exciting, fine. But does anyone actually think the probability of getting a card worth $250+ exceeds 5%?
Agreed. $250 should be the price for a slot of a complete 1971 PSA 9 registry set break.
@70ToppsFanatic said:
Would $250/slot be justified if the rack looked like this?
That's an amazing rack but I'm not seeing the wider seams between sections you'd expect to see on a 71 rack.
ETA: The punch hole is also not correct for a 1st series 71 rack.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
For sure the punch hole is not correct if it were a yellow header card rack. As a player header card rack it's a bit more of a an uncertainty. You are correct about the width of the seams. Adn the number of HOF names on the front and the back seemed way out of proportion in my opinion to be possible as a random occurrence.
It is a rack that I no longer own because, despite the opinions provided about its authenticity, I did not think it was legitimate.
I had this old picture of it and posted it to illustrate a point. The possibility of a PSA 9 Munson, Jackson, Blyleven or Rose is what makes it easy for some people to hand over $250/slot on a 1st series pack. And that doesn't even consider that you also have 38 other cards in series 1 (including The World Champions, Concepcion, Niekro, Hunter, McCovey, Carlton, several League Leader cards, etc). that all have average VCP of $250 or higher.
Thus in a series 1 rack you have about a 1/3 chance of pulling a slot with a card that, if it comes back PSA 9, will get you at least your money back. There are 36 cards in series 5 rack that would be worth at least $250 VCP average, including the likes of Frank Robinson, Brock, Perez, Banks, Mays and Clemente. Again, close to 1 in 3 of getting one of the cards, and then its just a question of the grading.
It doesn't take much to feed the gambling mentality that is driving this trend. All they need is an occasional appearance of a Clemente, Rose, Brock, Carew, Hunter, etc. and they will be able to keep this going for quite a while.
@70ToppsFanatic said:
For sure the punch hole is not correct if it were a yellow header card rack. As a player header card rack it's a bit more of a an uncertainty. You are correct about the width of the seams. Adn the number of HOF names on the front and the back seemed way out of proportion in my opinion to be possible as a random occurrence.
The circular punch hole should still appear on 1st series racks with the player header card like the BBCE wrapped one that ended tonight.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
@70ToppsFanatic said:
For sure the punch hole is not correct if it were a yellow header card rack. As a player header card rack it's a bit more of a an uncertainty. You are correct about the width of the seams. Adn the number of HOF names on the front and the back seemed way out of proportion in my opinion to be possible as a random occurrence.
The circular punch hole should still appear on 1st series racks with the player header card like the BBCE wrapped one that ended tonight.
I agree Tim, but the story behind the player header card racks is enough of a mystery that we cannot make assumptions about anything to do with them. We have no way to know if the circular hole is the only one that was used with them or whether the cross-hatched was also used.
The thing that makes it all a guess is that, theoretically, there should not even be 1st series player header card racks. Topps apparently did not run out of the yellow header cards (since they used the same ones in 1972 and 1973). Typically they only switched when they ran out of something. What would have been expected is if, after a certain series, we no longer got the yellow-header cards and only got the player header cards. But that didn't happen. We've racks with both kinds of headers in just about all of the series. As such, who is to say with certainty whether the hole versus the cross-punch is right or wrong in a first series rack?
Again, I parted with the rack at National in 2013 because there were too many things about it that I didn't think made sense to me. And that was despite a few opinions about it being legitimate from people who are considered experts, including the one from the dealer who sold it to me.
@70ToppsFanatic said:
For sure the punch hole is not correct if it were a yellow header card rack. As a player header card rack it's a bit more of a an uncertainty. You are correct about the width of the seams. Adn the number of HOF names on the front and the back seemed way out of proportion in my opinion to be possible as a random occurrence.
The circular punch hole should still appear on 1st series racks with the player header card like the BBCE wrapped one that ended tonight.
I agree Tim, but the story behind the player header card racks is enough of a mystery that we cannot make assumptions about anything to do with them. We have no way to know if the circular hole is the only one that was used with them or whether the cross-hatched was also used.
The thing that makes it all a guess is that, theoretically, there should not even be 1st series player header card racks. Topps apparently did not run out of the yellow header cards (since they used the same ones in 1972 and 1973). Typically they only switched when they ran out of something. What would have been expected is if, after a certain series, we no longer got the yellow-header cards and only got the player header cards. But that didn't happen. We've racks with both kinds of headers in just about all of the series. As such, who is to say with certainty whether the hole versus the cross-punch is right or wrong in a first series rack?
Again, I parted with the rack at National in 2013 because there were too many things about it that I didn't think made sense to me. And that was despite a few opinions about it being legitimate from people who are considered experts, including the one from the dealer who sold it to me.
The back story on 71 rack packs with player header cards is certainly a mystery and one I've repeatedly wondered about as far as why they were packaged that way and for what purpose as it doesn't appear to have been for retail sale at least by the packaging.
As far as punch holes go, though, Topps was very consistent with the way these racks were produced and I would not personally be comfortable in purchasing a 1st series rack with a cross hatch punch hole. The one sold by PWCC tonight was legit imo and bore the correct punch hole. It was a common rack. The one you posted above did not and of course that one is filled with star cards including Munson. Almost invariably, when you have aberrations like these, it's always the packs with stars showing that come up on the radar. That is not a coincidence.
Topps did use different header cards in 1971, both one-sided and two-sided with both circular and cross hatch punch holes, so there is a certain degree of transition present here, but I would still be highly skeptical of any pack that didn't comform to the production standard at the Topps factory, especially so if key star cards were present as in this case.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
There were enough other well-documented concerns about that Munson pack besides the hole. All I am saying is that we don't have enough information about when and how the player-header card racks were produced to know if only the full-circle punch hole is valid or if some were also produced with the cross-hatched punch hole. By itself that is not enough to disqualify a pack. On the other hand, the seam width issue is definitely enough to do so.
@70ToppsFanatic said:
There were enough other well-documented concerns about that Munson pack besides the hole. All I am saying is that we don't have enough information about when and how the player-header card racks were produced to know if only the full-circle punch hole is valid or if some were also produced with the cross-hatched punch hole. By itself that is not enough to disqualify a pack. On the other hand, the seam width issue is definitely enough to do so.
I am going to have to disagree with you there, Dave. As a collector, I am not passing an early series 1971 (or 1970) rack with the incorrect punch hole, as that was determined by the series as opposed to whether Topps used a header or player card.
Virtually every bad one I've seen has the wrong punch hole and every good one I've seen has the correct one. I believe John M and gemint have a number of 71 racks that will also bear this out.
I will add and agree with you, however, that when you encounter bad 71 racks, there are usually a number of red flags present and not just the incorrect punch hole in the header card.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
I would think the player header racks with the proper seams and punch hole were probably some sort of promotional giveaway of some sort. Or possibly made to give to stores as samples or maybe even stashed away for any customer complaints and mailed to them as a "sorry".
There is a logical disconnect with a lot of the discussion surrounding this issue. Back when the high unopened prices were being attributed to the rarity of unopened and divorced from rip potential, a pack like the Munson pack above (if it were legit) might have been impressive. But what good is it to vintage breaks when the Munson is no better than a PSA 6? Once the pack is ripped it’s appeal as a star pack is lost and we just have another run of the mill $65 OC Munson and a borderline miscut Niekro. I think I liked it better when I couldn’t afford a ‘71 rack because it was viewed as a rare museum piece. At least I understood that. This makes no sense to me anymore.
@PaulMaul said:
There is a logical disconnect with a lot of the discussion surrounding this issue. Back when the high unopened prices were being attributed to the rarity of unopened and divorced from rip potential, a pack like the Munson pack above (if it were legit) might have been impressive. But what good is it to vintage breaks when the Munson is no better than a PSA 6? Once the pack is ripped it’s appeal as a star pack is lost and we just have another run of the mill $65 OC Munson and a borderline miscut Niekro. I think I liked it better when I couldn’t afford a ‘71 rack because it was viewed as a rare museum piece. At least I understood that. This makes no sense to me anymore.
Well, the last one had oc commons on top and it still sold for $250/spot. No way i'm spending that on a spot, but I would think that those who do would rather have an oc Munson that an oc common. Of course, the gamble is really in what isn't showing.
I think we are all in agreement that the Munson pack pictured is not original, as it had several characteristics that make it more than likely a pack that was not produced by Topps.
All I am saying is that since we DO NOT know
1) if the player header packs for each series were all produced at the same time in 1971 as the yellow header packs for the same series
OR
2) if the player header packs for each series were all produced at a later time in 1971 than when their corresponding yellow header packs for the same series were produced
OR
3) if some were produced at the same time as their same series yellow header pack counterparts were made in 1971 and others for that series were also produced later in 1971
Given those possibilities I think it is impossible to definitively say that the punch hole versus cross-hatch punch is or is not, by itself, a characteristic that can be used to determine whether a pack is good or bad. It has to be considered with other characteristics in order to make such a determination.
If/When somebody uncovers the story behind the 1971 player header packs such that we know more about why, when and how they were produced I'm open to changing that opinion but until then using the punch hole test exclusively as a determining factor with 1971 player header packs is based on assumptions and incomplete information.
That does not mean I'd suggest buying a rack like the one pictured, but similarly I don't think it can be fairly dismissed purely on that basis.
@70ToppsFanatic said:
BTW, Anyone notice that the series 5 rack in the GAI holder that suddenly appeared yesterday at $5k now shows as being SOLD as of 6:21AM PST today?
@70ToppsFanatic said:
BTW, Anyone notice that the series 5 rack in the GAI holder that suddenly appeared yesterday at $5k now shows as being SOLD as of 6:21AM PST today?
The serial # of this pack starts with 103, which I believe is from the timeframe where the packs authenticated by GAI were legitimate.
@70ToppsFanatic said:
BTW, Anyone notice that the series 5 rack in the GAI holder that suddenly appeared yesterday at $5k now shows as being SOLD as of 6:21AM PST today?
The person who purchased the GAI rack was the underbidder on the BBCE rack that sold last night.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
@ahopkins said:
Another '71 rack just popped up on eBay with a Clemente on back. 5th series. What do you guys think? Legit?
Very quick opinion after reviewing listing on an iPhone. Header card is two-sided and cross punched. All cards showing appear to be the same series. Inter-cell seams appear to be the wide ones. Nothing weird so far, and visible centering is not bad. This is a rack I recognize (two Alston’s showing). It’s been listed before.
Plus, if you buy it and do a speedy review at BBCE and there is an issue you can SNAD and get your money back.
Comments
Just wait until you see the 66 Topps Baseball series 6 pack they are opening tonight at $275/spot!!
The 71 Rose card is a tough one to find centered. Found one last summer at the National that Jeff had in his booth and did not even ask the price it was so nice - just said i will take it so please put it aside. Trying to find a Bench, Clemente, and Reggie to go with it.
A bunch of mostly OC 1966 6th series commons plus an OC Wilhelm and an OC Checklist. A few nice commons that probably will be 8s. $275/card is a lot to pay for that.
The inventory of vintage unopened continues to be reduced by this activity, driving up the prices of what remains untouched.
Dave
As mentioned before, when are we going to see 81-87 unopened skyrocket? Figure it is just a matter of time.
Wishful thinking.
Starting in the late 70s the production volumes went way up relative to what was produced in the 1960s and early-mid 1970s. I've always considered 1977 as the last year where the supply side is restricted. Just look at the PSA pop reports for high-end stars beyond the Henderson RC in 1980 and you can see for yourself that there just aren't enough "5-figure" cards in the 1981-1987 era that will justify the kinds of price increases we are seeing in the older unopened market.
Dave
I would be interested in one of the empty 71T cello boxes for a fair price if you are willing to part with one. I have been eyeing a few on EBAY, but would rather buy from someone on the board if possible. I'm also looking for a 71T wax wrapper, but the last few I have seen were outrageously priced. Maybe this belongs on the BST thread lol.
Kris
My 1971 Topps adventure - Davis Men in Black
Ending tonight
https://www.ebay.com/itm/1971-Topps-Baseball-Unopened-Rack-Pack-1st-Series-54ct-Cards-BBCE-AUTH-PWCC/352588850634
Andy
It’s funny, a couple of years ago these player-header racks sat on eBay for months with no takers at a fraction of this price. Now suddenly it’s worth $5K +? Ridiculous.
That was before the Vintagebreaks rip at $250/slot (over $13k for the pack). This one also has BBCE authentication, whereas many of the player-header racks that used to sit on eBay were unverified.
But this was exactly the point of the other thread I started. These "breaks" have caused supply of vintage material to dry up and also have people paying much higher prices than we were seeing 18-24 months ago.
Dave
now they are starting to come out of the woodwork....
https://www.ebay.com/itm/1971-Topps-Baseball-RACK-PACK-5th-Series-UNOPENED-GAI-8-5/223399239238?hash=item3403a1de46:g:aD8AAOSwvSNcaei-:rk:42:pf:0
Who can blame them, LOL...
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
That series 5 rack doesn't have nearly the potential of the series 1 rack, and that is regardless of the collation sequence of both packs.
But just as a warning, I will say that the yellow header card racks were definitely the first ones that were distributed in 1971.
Dave
It would be interesting to learn the backstory of the 71 racks with the player header cards. We know they are legit racks as far as following card sequencing off the sheets but they have no Topps trademark or product information anywhere on the rack or anything that indicates they were for retail sale. I don't know of anyone who remembers them being for sale in a retail setting, either. This is one of the long-standing mysteries of 1970s unopened product.
One thing to be wary of, however, is that these racks are far more plentiful than those with yellow Topps header cards because they are easier to fabricate as it's much tougher to find a Topps header card from 1971 vs a player card.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
We know that SOME are legitimate. We also know that some are definitely not.
Dave
Agreed; that is why I added the second paragraph to my post above.
That is also the case with any vintage rack from any year but especially true for 1971 due to the header cards.
However, the back story is what I'd truly like to find out about.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
We also know that they did not run out of the yellow header cards, as they were also used in 1972 and 1973 and had the same 1970 product code as those used in 1970 and 1971
Dave
It's about 15 min until the hammer hits on the 1971 rack. It's currently at $6102.
At $250/slot in a VintageBreaks rip they can still more than double their money at the current price. I expect this one is not done yet.
Dave
My guess is $7k plus.
KC
1971 was also a transitional year as Topps began utilizing the crosshatch punch hole with 4th series in 1971 instead of the larger circular punch hole previously used. 1971 header cards in the early series were typically one-sided with graphics, too.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Bid stacking?! Why would anyone do that?!
So this rack is worth more than 10 PSA 8 Ryans....yeah, OK.
$6,602
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
$6600...and all the front cards are horribly OC.
Interesting how it sold for half of what the aggregate price of the recent series 1 rack pack bust was ($250/slot=$12,000).
buying O-Pee-Chee (OPC) baseball
It's worth what someone is willing to pay for it. But at $250/card in a break it comes to $13,250 so there seems to be plenty of headroom if that is it's ultimate destiny.
Dave
Well, that certainly demonstrates how foolish participating at that price point is.
I'm fairly certain that will be the case.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
If someone has $250 to burn and finds it exciting, fine. But does anyone actually think the probability of getting a card worth $250+ exceeds 5%?
Agreed. $250 should be the price for a slot of a complete 1971 PSA 9 registry set break.
buying O-Pee-Chee (OPC) baseball
Would $250/slot be justified if the rack looked like this?
Dave
Still not worth it to me. The Munson looks like a 6, but even as a 7 the upside is minor and the downside is huge.
That's an amazing rack but I'm not seeing the wider seams between sections you'd expect to see on a 71 rack.
ETA: The punch hole is also not correct for a 1st series 71 rack.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
For sure the punch hole is not correct if it were a yellow header card rack. As a player header card rack it's a bit more of a an uncertainty. You are correct about the width of the seams. Adn the number of HOF names on the front and the back seemed way out of proportion in my opinion to be possible as a random occurrence.
It is a rack that I no longer own because, despite the opinions provided about its authenticity, I did not think it was legitimate.
I had this old picture of it and posted it to illustrate a point. The possibility of a PSA 9 Munson, Jackson, Blyleven or Rose is what makes it easy for some people to hand over $250/slot on a 1st series pack. And that doesn't even consider that you also have 38 other cards in series 1 (including The World Champions, Concepcion, Niekro, Hunter, McCovey, Carlton, several League Leader cards, etc). that all have average VCP of $250 or higher.
Thus in a series 1 rack you have about a 1/3 chance of pulling a slot with a card that, if it comes back PSA 9, will get you at least your money back. There are 36 cards in series 5 rack that would be worth at least $250 VCP average, including the likes of Frank Robinson, Brock, Perez, Banks, Mays and Clemente. Again, close to 1 in 3 of getting one of the cards, and then its just a question of the grading.
It doesn't take much to feed the gambling mentality that is driving this trend. All they need is an occasional appearance of a Clemente, Rose, Brock, Carew, Hunter, etc. and they will be able to keep this going for quite a while.
Dave
The circular punch hole should still appear on 1st series racks with the player header card like the BBCE wrapped one that ended tonight.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
I agree Tim, but the story behind the player header card racks is enough of a mystery that we cannot make assumptions about anything to do with them. We have no way to know if the circular hole is the only one that was used with them or whether the cross-hatched was also used.
The thing that makes it all a guess is that, theoretically, there should not even be 1st series player header card racks. Topps apparently did not run out of the yellow header cards (since they used the same ones in 1972 and 1973). Typically they only switched when they ran out of something. What would have been expected is if, after a certain series, we no longer got the yellow-header cards and only got the player header cards. But that didn't happen. We've racks with both kinds of headers in just about all of the series. As such, who is to say with certainty whether the hole versus the cross-punch is right or wrong in a first series rack?
Again, I parted with the rack at National in 2013 because there were too many things about it that I didn't think made sense to me. And that was despite a few opinions about it being legitimate from people who are considered experts, including the one from the dealer who sold it to me.
Dave
The back story on 71 rack packs with player header cards is certainly a mystery and one I've repeatedly wondered about as far as why they were packaged that way and for what purpose as it doesn't appear to have been for retail sale at least by the packaging.
As far as punch holes go, though, Topps was very consistent with the way these racks were produced and I would not personally be comfortable in purchasing a 1st series rack with a cross hatch punch hole. The one sold by PWCC tonight was legit imo and bore the correct punch hole. It was a common rack. The one you posted above did not and of course that one is filled with star cards including Munson. Almost invariably, when you have aberrations like these, it's always the packs with stars showing that come up on the radar. That is not a coincidence.
Topps did use different header cards in 1971, both one-sided and two-sided with both circular and cross hatch punch holes, so there is a certain degree of transition present here, but I would still be highly skeptical of any pack that didn't comform to the production standard at the Topps factory, especially so if key star cards were present as in this case.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
There were enough other well-documented concerns about that Munson pack besides the hole. All I am saying is that we don't have enough information about when and how the player-header card racks were produced to know if only the full-circle punch hole is valid or if some were also produced with the cross-hatched punch hole. By itself that is not enough to disqualify a pack. On the other hand, the seam width issue is definitely enough to do so.
Dave
I am going to have to disagree with you there, Dave. As a collector, I am not passing an early series 1971 (or 1970) rack with the incorrect punch hole, as that was determined by the series as opposed to whether Topps used a header or player card.
Virtually every bad one I've seen has the wrong punch hole and every good one I've seen has the correct one. I believe John M and gemint have a number of 71 racks that will also bear this out.
I will add and agree with you, however, that when you encounter bad 71 racks, there are usually a number of red flags present and not just the incorrect punch hole in the header card.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Great info Dave and Tim, and a great civil conversation about this mystery.
Andy
Andy
I would think the player header racks with the proper seams and punch hole were probably some sort of promotional giveaway of some sort. Or possibly made to give to stores as samples or maybe even stashed away for any customer complaints and mailed to them as a "sorry".
I vote bad pack on the Munson rack.
There is a logical disconnect with a lot of the discussion surrounding this issue. Back when the high unopened prices were being attributed to the rarity of unopened and divorced from rip potential, a pack like the Munson pack above (if it were legit) might have been impressive. But what good is it to vintage breaks when the Munson is no better than a PSA 6? Once the pack is ripped it’s appeal as a star pack is lost and we just have another run of the mill $65 OC Munson and a borderline miscut Niekro. I think I liked it better when I couldn’t afford a ‘71 rack because it was viewed as a rare museum piece. At least I understood that. This makes no sense to me anymore.
Well, the last one had oc commons on top and it still sold for $250/spot. No way i'm spending that on a spot, but I would think that those who do would rather have an oc Munson that an oc common. Of course, the gamble is really in what isn't showing.
I think we are all in agreement that the Munson pack pictured is not original, as it had several characteristics that make it more than likely a pack that was not produced by Topps.
All I am saying is that since we DO NOT know
1) if the player header packs for each series were all produced at the same time in 1971 as the yellow header packs for the same series
OR
2) if the player header packs for each series were all produced at a later time in 1971 than when their corresponding yellow header packs for the same series were produced
OR
3) if some were produced at the same time as their same series yellow header pack counterparts were made in 1971 and others for that series were also produced later in 1971
Given those possibilities I think it is impossible to definitively say that the punch hole versus cross-hatch punch is or is not, by itself, a characteristic that can be used to determine whether a pack is good or bad. It has to be considered with other characteristics in order to make such a determination.
If/When somebody uncovers the story behind the 1971 player header packs such that we know more about why, when and how they were produced I'm open to changing that opinion but until then using the punch hole test exclusively as a determining factor with 1971 player header packs is based on assumptions and incomplete information.
That does not mean I'd suggest buying a rack like the one pictured, but similarly I don't think it can be fairly dismissed purely on that basis.
Dave
BTW, Anyone notice that the series 5 rack in the GAI holder that suddenly appeared yesterday at $5k now shows as being SOLD as of 6:21AM PST today?
Dave
Uggh
The serial # of this pack starts with 103, which I believe is from the timeframe where the packs authenticated by GAI were legitimate.
buying O-Pee-Chee (OPC) baseball
The person who purchased the GAI rack was the underbidder on the BBCE rack that sold last night.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Another '71 rack just popped up on eBay with a Clemente on back. 5th series. What do you guys think? Legit?
Andy
Very quick opinion after reviewing listing on an iPhone. Header card is two-sided and cross punched. All cards showing appear to be the same series. Inter-cell seams appear to be the wide ones. Nothing weird so far, and visible centering is not bad. This is a rack I recognize (two Alston’s showing). It’s been listed before.
Plus, if you buy it and do a speedy review at BBCE and there is an issue you can SNAD and get your money back.
Might be worth considering.
Dave