What is the oldest age a professional grader should be allowed to work before they are retired?

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  • neildrobertsonneildrobertson Posts: 240 ✭✭✭

    https://www.eeoc.gov/laws/types/age.cfm

    Age should not play a factor in one's ability to grade professionally. It's the law. One's ability to grade should matter. I think grading is like a lot of sports in that is takes constant practice and exposure to stay skilled. It's not something you accumulate over time. You can even get worse at it.

    I personally think we live in a culture where age discrimination exists, so I'm cautious about having these types of discussions. I don't want to be part of the problem.

  • WildIdeaWildIdea Posts: 1,356 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 3, 2019 3:00PM

    What’s the latest you could get into that game? Seems like it could be a great encore to a primary earlier profession.

  • Insider2Insider2 Posts: 10,015 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Wabbit2313 said:

    @MoneyMonkey1 said:
    The older the better when grading my coins.😉

    Not so fast. As long as Skip has been doing this, he can find something wrong with any coin, especially when he is looking at it with his electron microscope! @Insider2

    This :p post needs clarification. I've graded very many coins/tokens/medals from most countries and eras with nothing wrong with them. Many modern coins have rated 70 - perfect.

    This may be helpful:

    Let's say you are buying a diamond. You have ten perfect stones to choose from. All certified and all the "C's" equal. One of those stones is the best. The difference is this: The jeweler thinks all the stones are equal. You discover they are not.

    Magnification in combination with good light and a very careful examination works on the diamond example above and also with coins. For example, all MS-65's are not equal. They are judged by many factors. Many coins are graded without any magnification. Others may be graded using a glass. The last time I checked, 4X-5X is the "published" norm. All magnification, lighting, and a careful exam does is let you arrive at a precise technical grade w/o missing anything. You'll see things that others will not see - some affecting the grade and some that do not. IMO, it is best to see everything on a coin there is to see. Then, you need to look at the coin the way 95% of the knowledgeable numismatists do IN THE REAL WORLD. That's when you assign a grade.

  • logger7logger7 Posts: 4,098 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Sometimes I wish ICG would loosen up their grading standards a little, but then the collector community may not hold them in such high regard, often even higher than Anacs....

    Just curious which graders are paid the famous six figure salaries some of us have heard so much about?

  • TwoSides2aCoinTwoSides2aCoin Posts: 40,324 ✭✭✭✭✭

    There's always a career in the crack-out game. Age has no bearing on those who know what to look for, and how to look at it.

  • ARCOARCO Posts: 3,541 ✭✭✭✭

    @Insider2 said:
    I had some sad news from a professional coin grader today. He is in his fifties and was a loyal employee for over a decade.

    While I hope to die at my desk at 100+, when is someone too old? Is there such a thing as too young to grade coins?

    How old is too old to offer subjective opinions?

  • oih82w8oih82w8 Posts: 8,302 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Age is just a number, it would depend on their abilities.

    oih82w8 = Oh I Hate To Wait _defectus patientia_



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  • gripgrip Posts: 9,671 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Not all muffins come out of the oven
    baked the same.

  • Insider2Insider2 Posts: 10,015 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @ARCO said:

    @Insider2 said:
    I had some sad news from a professional coin grader today. He is in his fifties and was a loyal employee for over a decade.

    While I hope to die at my desk at 100+, when is someone too old? Is there such a thing as too young to grade coins?

    How old is too old to offer subjective opinions?

    LOL, coins or congress? :p

  • BUFFNIXXBUFFNIXX Posts: 1,811 ✭✭✭✭

    30

    Collector of Buffalo Nickels and other 20th century United States Coinage
    a.k.a "The BUFFINATOR"
  • EastonCollectionEastonCollection Posts: 1,038 ✭✭✭

    @cnncoins said:
    The graders actually get "graded" on how accurate they are, specifically what percentage of coins go out the door at their specific grade. If their numbers are not up to snuff, they will know it, and if bad enough, probably will be looking for alternative work.
    I don't believe this has anything to do with age. The other possibility is that the business model can't support the number of graders and their pay structure. This may also come into play as management decides who to keep and who to let go.

    However, business is business, Imagine that they have 18 top graders that get all the grades 100% of the time right. That means they spend a lot of money in compensation and resubmissions are lower because folks don't get upgrades. Profits are lower and then they have to fire graders and hire them with graders that are not top so submissions increase. Being a public company that reports profits other market forces get in the way of integrity and short cuts are taken. This is true in all industries.

    Easton Collection
  • ColonelJessupColonelJessup Posts: 5,173 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 12, 2019 9:36AM

    @EastonCollection said:

    @cnncoins said:
    The graders actually get "graded" on how accurate they are, specifically what percentage of coins go out the door at their specific grade. If their numbers are not up to snuff, they will know it, and if bad enough, probably will be looking for alternative work.
    I don't believe this has anything to do with age. The other possibility is that the business model can't support the number of graders and their pay structure. This may also come into play as management decides who to keep and who to let go.

    However, business is business, Imagine that they have 18 top graders that get all the grades 100% of the time right That means they spend a lot of money in compensation and resubmissions are lower because folks don't get upgrades. Profits are lower and then they have to fire graders and hire them with graders that are not top so submissions increase. Being a public company that reports profits other market forces get in the way of integrity and short cuts are taken. This is true in all industries.

    There are not 18 top graders on the planet, in or out of the grading rooms, who can "get it right" 80% of the time.

    However, a lot of them are good at "no-grades" at 90%+. PR67+/PR68 "B" coins, maybe not so much, but sometimes not as tough as you might imagine. MS67+/MS68 "nuclear white" Morgans slip through more often. After you've seen a few billion bucks worth of a broad range of non-modern coins, it's partially conscious and partly semi-autonomic gestalt perception. Some have a natural talent for this particular form of pattern recognition. Experience will program the results in much the same way.

    As @Insider2 pointed out, the lower the grade in terms of technical impairments, the more variances (and disparities) there will likely be in terms of negative and positive factors.

    Let me add that the vast majority of people on Social Security, including former world-class graders such as myself, have eyes that aren't worth shit function at sub-optimal levels. :'( First noticeable diagnostic for me: not being able to read the dates on 3-cent Silvers.

    "What matters most is how well you walk through the fire" - Charles Bukowski
  • GluggoGluggo Posts: 2,397 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Soon we won’t need many as AI Artificial Intelligence Will do the work. The tech will place to coin on the unit and press a button.

  • Insider2Insider2 Posts: 10,015 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Gluggo said:
    Soon we won’t need many as AI Artificial Intelligence Will do the work. The tech will place to coin on the unit and press a button.

    LOL. I'll be long dead!

  • ms70ms70 Posts: 10,761 ✭✭✭✭✭

    It's hard to believe such a specialized skill would have a short career span.

  • CurrinCurrin Posts: 683 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Insider2 said:
    I had some sad news from a professional coin grader today. He is in his fifties and was a loyal employee for over a decade.

    While I hope to die at my desk at 100+, when is someone too old? Is there such a thing as too young to grade coins?

    I hope it is not as long as a NFL Ref.

    My 20th Century Type Set, With Type Variations---started : 9/22/1997 ---- completed : 1/7/2004

    My 20th Century Gold Major Design Type Set ---started : 11/17/1997 ---- completed : 1/21/2004
  • astroratastrorat Posts: 8,019 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Irrespective of age, you should no longer be a grader when you can no longer meet the responsibilities of the position.

    Numismatist Ordinaire
    See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
  • KeithMS70KeithMS70 Posts: 182 ✭✭✭

    If he or she is consistent in their grading I don’t see an age limit.

  • astroratastrorat Posts: 8,019 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @KeithMS70 said:
    If he or she is consistent in their grading I don’t see an age limit.

    Keep in mind ... about a dozen years ago Coin World did blind submissions and resubmissions of coins to the prominent TPGs in the marketplace. The published results indicated that the most consistent company was ... Accugrade.

    Numismatist Ordinaire
    See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
  • PerryHallPerryHall Posts: 36,162 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @astrorat said:

    @KeithMS70 said:
    If he or she is consistent in their grading I don’t see an age limit.

    Keep in mind ... about a dozen years ago Coin World did blind submissions and resubmissions of coins to the prominent TPGs in the marketplace. The published results indicated that the most consistent company was ... Accugrade.

    Consistency isn't the same as accuracy. :D

  • CommemDudeCommemDude Posts: 1,620 ✭✭✭✭✭

    My guess is that this is all about plain old productivity. Even in medicine, the older doctors are being overlooked in favor of the youngsters who can see more than 4 patents an hour.... wisdom and experience are not part of the equation. Every aspect of American business/service/manufacturing is in thrall to Wall Street.

    Dr Mikey
    Commems and Early Type
  • Cougar1978Cougar1978 Posts: 3,455 ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 23, 2019 8:47AM

    92? Didn’t Hef run the Playboy Empire until his death at 92?

    I remember an episode of the girls next door show where he took his 3 playmate gf to Vegas to celebrate his 80th bd.

    Buy / Sell - US / World - Coins & Currency
  • KkathylKkathyl Posts: 2,583 ✭✭✭✭✭

    It is illegal to force a retirement so as long as the person can perform at the level expressed. Never

  • ColonelJessupColonelJessup Posts: 5,173 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 23, 2019 10:55AM

    When I joined here in 2009, I was 65.
    One of my first sig-lines was "Partially-blind former world-class grader with friends in low places".
    Yet, remarkably, there are some (few) coins and series I may be better at than I was 30 years ago.

    I'm much slower now, but in the early days at NGC a good deal more time was spent discussing grading as interesting or provocative coins came in. PCGS founder John Dannreuther was my long-time Long Beach tablemate thru '92 and auction partner many times, as well as a primary advocate of eye-appeal as a more prominent factor. He, and I, and no more than 20 other dealers were the core auction attendees, and all were sharpened by the direct competition. We all knew each other. We all saw things others didn't, and others saw what we missed. A more expansive way evolved in coin description. Beyond complaints of a few (or more), "market grading", the test of the worthiness to others, is a widely held and more granular view of quality that many find useful. And, by specialists and experts, sometimes disagreed with at many grade levels below the highest. :# >:) :p

    The apocryphal "8 seconds per coin" might have worked for MS61 $20 Libs, but even that, until this day, is gross hyperbole.
    No way someone with my 40 years of exceptionally well-trained fuzzy 74 yr-old eyes could keep up with TPG productivity needs. Many in that situation could serve as finalizers/verifiers on a dis-economic 400 coins per day, likely half or less than real world TPG throughput. Graders are tracked, You can bet the early type guys can grade SLQ's, but likely not as well or as fast. What are the bands of tolerance for variance from the various norms? Nowadays, are there learning curves? Exposure to tons of imagery has expanded everyone's grading vocabulary. How long do graders serve an apprenticeship to educate themselves across a broader spectrum? It's very different now than then.

    "You've got know when to hold 'em, know when to fold 'em".
    Which translates, by both private and consensus metrics, to YMMV.
    Which signifies "Your Mileage May Vary". :/
    Sometimes signified by "just my two cents" ;)

    "What matters most is how well you walk through the fire" - Charles Bukowski
  • astroratastrorat Posts: 8,019 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @PerryHall said:

    @astrorat said:

    @KeithMS70 said:
    If he or she is consistent in their grading I don’t see an age limit.

    Keep in mind ... about a dozen years ago Coin World did blind submissions and resubmissions of coins to the prominent TPGs in the marketplace. The published results indicated that the most consistent company was ... Accugrade.

    Consistency isn't the same as accuracy. :D

    You got it! That was the subtle point of my post. If, for example, you consistently grade every shiny Morgan as MS-67, it doesn't make you a good grader, but it does mean you are consistent.

    Numismatist Ordinaire
    See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
  • TreashuntTreashunt Posts: 4,346 ✭✭✭✭✭

    13, after that it is all downhill

    Frank

    BHNC #203

  • RollermanRollerman Posts: 1,532 ✭✭✭✭

    I used to think it would be a great job to grade coins, especially the rare and beautiful ones that I might never see otherwise. But then I realized the short amount of time you have to determine a grade in that setting and figured I'd go cross eyed doing that all day. I think I'm a better grader today that I was years ago, BUT I do take longer as realized how easily something can be missed if you don't take your time. Boredom would set in if I had to look at 100's of certain denominations all day also.

    "Ain't None of Them play like him (Bix Beiderbecke) Yet."
    Louis Armstrong
  • ColonelJessupColonelJessup Posts: 5,173 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 23, 2019 3:08PM

    @astrorat said:

    @PerryHall said:

    @astrorat said:

    @KeithMS70 said:
    If he or she is consistent in their grading I don’t see an age limit.

    Keep in mind ... about a dozen years ago Coin World did blind submissions and resubmissions of coins to the prominent TPGs in the marketplace. The published results indicated that the most consistent company was ... Accugrade.

    Consistency isn't the same as accuracy. :D

    You got it! That was the subtle point of my post. If, for example, you consistently grade every shiny Morgan as MS-67, it doesn't make you a good grader, but it does mean you are consistent.

    Also, being a full to half-point too tight or loose. What if, beyond the blatantly obvious, you're 85% on RB vs. RD Indian and/or Lincoln color and 35% on Morgans PL vs. DMPL?

    "What matters most is how well you walk through the fire" - Charles Bukowski
  • astroratastrorat Posts: 8,019 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @ColonelJessup said:

    @astrorat said:

    @PerryHall said:

    @astrorat said:

    @KeithMS70 said:
    If he or she is consistent in their grading I don’t see an age limit.

    Keep in mind ... about a dozen years ago Coin World did blind submissions and resubmissions of coins to the prominent TPGs in the marketplace. The published results indicated that the most consistent company was ... Accugrade.

    Consistency isn't the same as accuracy. :D

    You got it! That was the subtle point of my post. If, for example, you consistently grade every shiny Morgan as MS-67, it doesn't make you a good grader, but it does mean you are consistent.

    Also, being a full to half-point too tight or loose. What if, beyond the blatantly obvious, you're 85% on RB vs. RD Indian and/or Lincoln color and 35% on Morgans PL vs. DMPL?

    My apologies ... I am not following what you are asking.

    Numismatist Ordinaire
    See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
  • au58au58 Posts: 1,265 ✭✭✭

    29

  • Insider2Insider2 Posts: 10,015 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @au58 said:
    29

    "29" applies only to the female graders, right?

  • JustacommemanJustacommeman Posts: 18,413 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @ColonelJessup said:
    When I joined here in 2009, I was 65.
    One of my first sig-lines was "Partially-blind former world-class grader with friends in low places".
    Yet, remarkably, there are some (few) coins and series I may be better at than I was 30 years ago.

    I'm much slower now, but in the early days at NGC a good deal more time was spent discussing grading as interesting or provocative coins came in. PCGS founder John Dannreuther was my long-time Long Beach tablemate thru '92 and auction partner many times, as well as a primary advocate of eye-appeal as a more prominent factor. He, and I, and no more than 20 other dealers were the core auction attendees, and all were sharpened by the direct competition. We all knew each other. We all saw things others didn't, and others saw what we missed. A more expansive way evolved in coin description. Beyond complaints of a few (or more), "market grading", the test of the worthiness to others, is a widely held and more granular view of quality that many find useful. And, by specialists and experts, sometimes disagreed with at many grade levels below the highest. :# >:) :p

    The apocryphal "8 seconds per coin" might have worked for MS61 $20 Libs, but even that, until this day, is gross hyperbole.
    No way someone with my 40 years of exceptionally well-trained fuzzy 74 yr-old eyes could keep up with TPG productivity needs. Many in that situation could serve as finalizers/verifiers on a dis-economic 400 coins per day, likely half or less than real world TPG throughput. Graders are tracked, You can bet the early type guys can grade SLQ's, but likely not as well or as fast. What are the bands of tolerance for variance from the various norms? Nowadays, are there learning curves? Exposure to tons of imagery has expanded everyone's grading vocabulary. How long do graders serve an apprenticeship to educate themselves across a broader spectrum? It's very different now than then.

    "You've got know when to hold 'em, know when to fold 'em".
    Which translates, by both private and consensus metrics, to YMMV.
    Which signifies "Your Mileage May Vary". :/
    Sometimes signified by "just my two cents" ;)

    I miss JD..... actually you too ColonelJessup

    m

    Walker Proof Digital Album





    Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
  • ColonelJessupColonelJessup Posts: 5,173 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @astrorat said:

    @ColonelJessup said:

    @astrorat said:

    @PerryHall said:

    @astrorat said:

    @KeithMS70 said:
    If he or she is consistent in their grading I don’t see an age limit.

    Keep in mind ... about a dozen years ago Coin World did blind submissions and resubmissions of coins to the prominent TPGs in the marketplace. The published results indicated that the most consistent company was ... Accugrade.

    Consistency isn't the same as accuracy. :D

    You got it! That was the subtle point of my post. If, for example, you consistently grade every shiny Morgan as MS-67, it doesn't make you a good grader, but it does mean you are consistent.

    Also, being a full to half-point too tight or loose. What if, beyond the blatantly obvious, you're 85% on RB vs. RD Indian and/or Lincoln color and 35% on Morgans PL vs. DMPL?

    My apologies ... I am not following what you are asking.

    The same grader is a genius on copper and an idiot ignoramus on Morgans. Or vice versa. Consistently.

    "What matters most is how well you walk through the fire" - Charles Bukowski
  • KeithMS70KeithMS70 Posts: 182 ✭✭✭

    Well let me rephrase that. If he or she grades consistently accurate then I see no age limit.

  • Rich49Rich49 Posts: 180 ✭✭✭

    I always wondered when a coin is submitted does it go to a person that is their specialty or to the next one who is "up" ? ??

    photo index.gif

  • astroratastrorat Posts: 8,019 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @ColonelJessup said:

    The same grader is a genius on copper and an idiot ignoramus on Morgans. Or vice versa. Consistently.

    Ah ... gotcha.

    Numismatist Ordinaire
    See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
  • OldIndianNutKaseOldIndianNutKase Posts: 1,897 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Perhaps, in submission to a TPG one should be able to pick the primary grader based upon their resume, with their identity withheld. As a submitter, I would gladly pay a higher grading fee for a highly credentialed grader for high value coins and a junior grader for lower fee for modern coins. Much like being represented by the principal of a law firm or a very junior partner.

    The experience of a grader should be a significant aspect of the grading service.

    OINK

  • sniocsusniocsu Posts: 1,172 ✭✭✭

    Older graders have seen more coins. I would pick them. But if they are no longer able to see what they are grading, even with corrective lenses; then maybe they should move on to training the next generation of graders

  • Insider2Insider2 Posts: 10,015 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 24, 2019 3:29PM

    Perhaps there are different tiers of service based on value so that the most experienced graders do the valuable coins. IMO, this would be EXTREMELY important for "commercial" grading where the grade is arrived at by the coin's eye appeal and value regardless of its actual condition of preservation.

    And remember, in theory, the opinion of several folks is used to arrive at a TPGS grade. The finalizers are experienced.

  • cnncoinscnncoins Posts: 259 ✭✭✭

    I think experience in a wide variety of series/areas is extremely valuable in the grading room. But, frankly, if you can't see, it will be very difficult to continue in the grading room. I get my eyes checked regularly and have always been near sighted. But my closeup vision is 20-15. Does this automatically make me a good grader? No...but it does help.

    For what it's worth, I think at 74 years ColonelJessup can still grade coins, unless he's misplaced or lost them (which happens with more frequency than he likes to admit).

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