Is it time for collectors to say "NO" to all reproductions?
291fifth
Posts: 24,689 ✭✭✭✭✭
Counterfeits pose a real threat to the coin hobby. We are now regularly seeing and reading about very high quality fakes getting into main line commercial channels (and not just US items). The Hobby Protection Act allows reproductions with the word "COPY" stamped into them but should collectors be encouraging the production and sale of any kind of reproductions?
What do you think? Is it time for collectors to just say "NO" to reproductions of all kinds?
All glory is fleeting.
11
Comments
The unscrupulous won't be asking us for permission or approval.
One problem is who is going to educate the clueless people on eBay, alibaba, and all the other sites that what they are going after are dollar signs and not collectible coins. Greed and stupidity, unfortunately is the driver for this whole situation. Who in their right mind is going to buy for instance, a listed 1893-CC dollar in VF on one of these sites at a BIN for $50? Odds are highly likely that it is a fake.
You can’t imagine some of the counterfeit trash that people have shown me over the years. These people find them at flea markets, etc. thinking they have hit the mother lode. The common thread here is that they don’t collect coins, they just think that they got a great deal.
It would be like me looking for Tiffany lamps. I better learn and study about them so that I don’t start loading up on knock-offs.
Crab apple picking is not the same as cherry picking.
@291fifth can you expand on what you mean? As a collector, and I assume this goes for all of us, I cannot stand counterfeits. I am not familiar with the world of reproductions for collectible purposes. Do you mean like the carr pieces?
One problem I see is that when I "google" a specific coin many times the first results are cheap fakes which I am sure are purchases by inexperienced buyers.
Funny, I was just looking at currency on eBay. Seller's pics show what appears to be real specimens, but in the descriptions they immediately declare they are allowed to sell exact copies as long as the dimensions are a certain percentage larger or smaller than an actual bill. No mention about "COPY" on currency reproductions. I think it's crap.
Here it is right from a seller:
“You can list one-sided copies of paper currency as long as you clearly indicate that the item is one-sided. You can also list paper currency reproductions (color or black and white) if the item is less than 75% or greater than 150% of the size of the original item being reproduced, and this is clear in your listing".
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.
To me,
a counterfeit coin is something made to deceive,
a reproduction coin is something made to educate/collect.
JMO
Successful transactions with : MICHAELDIXON, Manorcourtman, Bochiman, bolivarshagnasty, AUandAG, onlyroosies, chumley, Weiss, jdimmick, BAJJERFAN, gene1978, TJM965, Smittys, GRANDAM, JTHawaii, mainejoe, softparade, derryb, Ricko
Bad transactions with : nobody to date
Yes and the federal government should prosecute those who do not comply with the HPA marking requirements criminally under the federal counterfeiting statutes. This includes a lot of the novelty junk on the market. The problem is that many of the producers believe that they will only receive a slap on the wrist or small civil fine if prosecuted. If it is made in the likeness or similitude of design or inscription of U.S. coinage then there is nothing stopping the application of 18 U.S.C. 485-489. If the government went after one or two vigorously a lot of the abuses would stop.
This should apply to "fantasy" pieces as well since they can deceive the un/under-educated.
NO
And FYI, I was 100% against the hobby protection act too. The fakes that were targeted in '72 were so crude that only the ignorant were being protected. They still sent us coins to be authenticated with the word "COPY" stamped on their edge!
We cannot protect ourselves from stupid or ignorant. That's why electrical products have warnings not to use in water. People still die improperly using them, generators and _________fill in the blank!
Stupid and ignorant people have ruined the quality of my life!
PS And my beautiful Gallery Mint reproductions.
And for those that think they're cute with the law or that they are above the law, the government should make them test that position in court all the way through the federal appellate courts at $300+/hr. If a criminal case is lost, then a civil suit under the more expansive HPA should be attempted until the producers are driven into bankruptcy. All my opinion of course...
I can't, and won't attempt, to speak for ALL collectors. But I've already sworn off of anything that isn't historically "real". No reproductions, no fantasies, no "properly labeled" fun pieces.
For me, the history is a HUGE part of the charm. Make me a perfect Chain Cent knock off, and it isn't any more interesting than a chunk of copper pipe hammered on until it's flat and round. Just junk pulling collector's focus away from what we should really be interested in.
Yeah, just like the banks are trying to run this country's gunmakers and gun shops out of business! You "do-gooders" and busy-bodies" better hope folks don't decide that collecting coins should be regulated to one coin a month and collecting ancient coins is illegal!
It unreasonable IMHO to expect the lay public to have the specialized level of knowledge that you, Tom Delorey, or many of the more seasoned posters have here. Even if it is merely the case of someone inheriting junk who is confused and submitting it to a grading service, the person has incurred damages because of individuals with a god complex who get off by coining their own money IMO.
You might not like my methods, but the methods work.
Collectors can't agree on ANYTHING, but it's a nice sentiment. Demand creates supply. You can try to regulate the supply side, but enforcement is a continuous problem. Demand from ignorant individuals is even harder to manage.
I imagine this discussion will degenerate into another polarizing Dan Carr thread within another 10-20 posts. I own some of his stuff and I think his fantasy pieces are clearly identifiable, not produced or sold with nefarious motives, and rather impressive accomplishments. I will admit that they're possibly confusing to non-numismatists.
This thread isn't specific to him. There are a number of problematic entities. As for the laws and especially the HPA, the provisions are intended to protect lay people without specialized knowledge. Think lowest common denominator...
Oh I know, but these threads usually trend that way. People have strong feelings both ways.
The thread is already meandering away from I read as the original intent:
The suggestion was NOT to make new laws, or enforce the current ones more aggressively. It asks, "Is it time for collectors to just say "NO" to reproductions of all kinds?"
We collectively DO have some pull. We preach, "Don't Clean", "Seek the best you can afford", "Originality is best", etc. What if the hobby, collectively, preached, "knock-offs and fakes are not acceptable in any form"?
Would it do some good?
It is unreasonable for anyone to know anything about something they are uneducated about.
So what's your point. Don't eat rat poison?
Most folks in this country buy things they know nothing about and have not researched. Most probably go to dentists and doctors w/o doing personal research too. Plunk your money down for that diamond and live with your choice - or regret it.
BTW, it's called FREEDOM. Some of us on CU lived in the good old USA before it became a "Nanny State." My grand children will never hear the story of Rudolph! However, they will be taught that there are over a dozen possible genders they can choose to be besides male or female! So sad.
Yes, the last replacement battery i purchased for my laptop had a list of WARNINGS.
One of the warnings was
"Do not pound a nail into the battery"
???????
Successful transactions with : MICHAELDIXON, Manorcourtman, Bochiman, bolivarshagnasty, AUandAG, onlyroosies, chumley, Weiss, jdimmick, BAJJERFAN, gene1978, TJM965, Smittys, GRANDAM, JTHawaii, mainejoe, softparade, derryb, Ricko
Bad transactions with : nobody to date
NUTS
So I can produce a coin that looks exactly like a U.S. coin and the piece is not counterfeit as long as I didn't intend to deceive? What if I produced it without the intent to deceive, but then suddenly, impressed with my own work, I decide to see if I can pass it in circulation? Is the "coin" a counterfeit then? If so, at what point did the "coin" change?
If intent has any role in the discussion it is to whether the producer or seller has any criminal liability which is a very different issue. Usually intent is injected into these threads by self serving individuals (not targeted at you) who wish to muddy the waters and either create a false veneer of legitimacy to their wares or serve as a misguided CYA.
OK, anyone know what would happen? You might save me from trying it with a flat 9V at home.
Thanks for not targeting me
I hate muddy water also.
I'm here to discuss and mainly to broaden my knowledge
Successful transactions with : MICHAELDIXON, Manorcourtman, Bochiman, bolivarshagnasty, AUandAG, onlyroosies, chumley, Weiss, jdimmick, BAJJERFAN, gene1978, TJM965, Smittys, GRANDAM, JTHawaii, mainejoe, softparade, derryb, Ricko
Bad transactions with : nobody to date
The last few 9V batteries that I took apart [don't ask why], actually contained six single 1.5V AAA Batteries wired in series to make 9V inside.
Successful transactions with : MICHAELDIXON, Manorcourtman, Bochiman, bolivarshagnasty, AUandAG, onlyroosies, chumley, Weiss, jdimmick, BAJJERFAN, gene1978, TJM965, Smittys, GRANDAM, JTHawaii, mainejoe, softparade, derryb, Ricko
Bad transactions with : nobody to date
9v battery has always been 6 1.5 volt cells inside
Good point.
I guess I should have stopped at "yes" in my first post.
If collectors stop buying reproductions, the market for reproductions (both lawful and unlawful) will crumble and future production will at least slow.
You should try it and film it for YouTube. We'll call it the 9V challenge.
Does anyone know anyone who purchased a fantasy/overstrike type coin, did at least 60 seconds of research before buying, and got ripped off? I'm not very much in the know, but I've never heard of it and it certainly doesn't seem to be much of a problem.
Collectors buying fakes, altered coins, etc. is obviously a problem that actually negatively affects people.
I don't see how rejecting fantasy/overstrike type coins helps with eliminating counterfeit coins.
Yes, freedom. Freedom allows you to do things; it doesn't free you from the consequences of your actions. Maybe we should repeal all fraud laws too. Insider trading (no pun intended)? No problem. Other white collar crimes like bank fraud, wire fraud, mail fraud, etc.? Well they had it coming to them.
Why when DCarr makes a fake die and strikes coins it is great for the hobby but when D Lee makes it, people break out their pitch forks?
Intent as a valid argument but 99% of the time the collector is arguing about the intent of resellers which isn’t germane to the conversation. Also if I shoot you in the leg to warn you but you bleed out I still get murder1 because I meant to shoot you. DCarr intends to make fakes everyday...that’s intent. He doesn’t decieve buyers so I am ok dropping those charges.
To me, intent is mostly only relevant in the sentencing portion. Anybody making computer aided dies that looks like American issues to be used to make coins that look like American coins is a crook. Others feel differently
11.5$ Southern Dollars, The little “Big Easy” set
Here is an interesting article from Mike Fahey (an ANACS grader)... No one will be fooled they say.
https://www.coinworld.com/news/us-coins/2016/08/1922-d-half-dollar-struck-at-private-mint.all.html
My last post is germane because it goes to possible deception and confusion even from counterfeits or reproductions of mediocre quality. For the good of the hobby, collectors should walk away from cheap imitation coins altogether and not incentivize this behavior.
Many of us say No to participating in both active counterfeit coin production and CU spam thread loopholes, but we're in the minority, since so many others here find them to be enormously fun and profitable.
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
In a truly free country, you can produce anything you like as long as you stay within the" law." If the government decides that you have gone too far making reproductions of our currency (breaking the law) you deserve to have your hand chopped off and made to turn boulders into gravel fifteen hours a day using one hand on a diet of bread and water until you depart this life.
There are distributers of counterfeits made overseas. Same goes for them.
Having a forbidden substance/pill/whatever (while important and breaking the law) is less important than being one step up by knowingly distributing them.
I took some batteries apart as a kid. What would happen if I drove a nail into one? Probably nothing, right?
Confusion and deception are two very different things. In the example you listed, collectors were confused over what a particular coin was and it's value. They were not deceived into thinking a coin was worth much more than it was.
But again, I fail to see how numismatics "rejecting" these types of coins has any impact on collectors getting ripped off by fake coins. Is the contention that if fantasy pieces didn't exist somehow counterfeiters would be impacted or consumer behavior would change?
@cameonut2011 said: "Yes, freedom. Freedom allows you to do things; it doesn't free you from the consequences of your actions.
I agree, and that's how it should be (and was when I was young). However, this is not always true today in our "Nanny State."
"Maybe we should repeal all fraud laws too." LOL, come on, this is as funny as me chopping off hands!
"Insider trading (no pun intended)? No problem." Yes problem and let me inform folks that's what our elected representatives have allowed for themselves."
"Other white collar crimes like bank fraud, wire fraud, mail fraud, etc.? Well they had it coming to them."
LOL. Let's all think of some other stupid examples like rape, murder, etc. Get real folks!
@Crypto said: "Why when DCarr makes a fake die and strikes coins it is great for the hobby but when D Lee makes it, people break out their pitch forks?
Intent as a valid argument but 99% of the time the collector is arguing about the intent of resellers which isn’t germane to the conversation. Also if I shoot you in the leg to warn you but you bleed out I still get murder1 because I meant to shoot you. DCarr intends to make fakes everyday...that’s intent. He doesn’t decieve buyers so I am ok dropping those charges.
To me, intent is mostly only relevant in the sentencing portion. Anybody making computer aided dies that looks like American issues to be used to make coins that look like American coins is a crook. Others feel differently
I agree, leave intent out of it. BTW, when Mr. Chang makes "coins" as well as Mr. Carr we all will be in more trouble.
At the moment, Mr. Lee has made SOME items that put some of the Mint's 18th & 19th 18th Century issues to shame!
Years ago my wife purchased a "SOLD ON TV ONLY" product....the "Hairdini" It was a cloth covered pliable doo-hickey that was to be used for holding various hairstyles in place. Printed on the box was the disclaimer "FOR EXTERNAL USE ONLY".
Assumes facts not in evidence... No where did it state how the coins were acquired or at what price the pieces were acquired all of which is irrelevant in any event. It doesn't matter whether the individuals were financially harmed either. The relevant standard is whether an average person of ordinary intelligence and knowledge could confuse the pieces with genuine U.S. issues - not a specialist or numismatist. I think Mr. Fahey's article answers that question but that is a question for a jury or other fact finder. Overstriking a genuine coin also doesn't change the calculus, but I'm not going there as I am not interested in turning this into a Carr thread. He gets enough free publicity as it is.
The point is that there are many, many companies and individuals that produce at least somewhat deceptive, HPA non-compliant pieces. As long as there is a market for reproductions, there will always be an incentive for companies to make more and more realistic looking pieces for the collector market. That is part of Carr's popularity as many note that the HPA required markings would kill their interest in his work. As more and more push the envelope, there are more and more potentially deceptive pieces on the market. If collectors shun them, the demand will decrease and there will be less incentive to produce at least some of them. Many of the coins that are sold deceptively from China were not produced to deceive. Even the key date are sometimes labeled as reproductions online or sold at such low prices on sites like AliExpress and Alibaba that would obviously alert you to their counterfeit status especially when you can buy them in bulk.
By reducing demand and even a small number of deceptive reproductions, collectors would face less risk. You are correct that deceptive pieces sold for nefarious purposes will always be a threat regardless of reproductions; however, you don't open the flood gates or blow up the dike because it springs a small leak. As a final note, many are purchasing unmarked coins sold as reproduction or curiosity pieces from China and selling them domestically as the real McCoy. There have been a few recent federal prosecutions. This is why I vehemently oppose much of Carr's work. Once it is sold you cannot control what happens to the pieces. Unmarked reproductions or novelty items do cause confusion (see Fahey's article). By shunning reproductions it would kill off the market for both marked and unmarked pieces and reduce the incentive to push the envelope and try to be cute with the law.
Precisely Skip. Unmarked pieces are not within the law as you phrase it and the entities that produce them should be pursued as vigorously as possible/practical. I never advocated for making HPA compliant pieces retroactively illegal. I advocated for collectors and market dynamics to make them obsolete which is very much an issue of economic freedom. If you don't like a company or individual, then boycotting that entity is reasonable.
I think a few people will never be honest about this situation for fear they will have to re-kiss the ring. It seems that there is a lot of ring kissing required in numismatics, more so than other hobbies.
BINGO!!
Sorry but I'm gonna keep using bogus material as training aids. I had a customer come in today wanting to learn about morgan dollars and ways to detect fakes. I pulled out a batch of 10 or so and gave a good half hour crash course. He now feels comfortable buying raw coins.
a free one ......... anyone?
Agree. We cannot make them mark their fakes or obey our laws but we can chop a hand off when we catch a facilitator subject to our laws in our country. Lock 'em up and tell the other prisoners they are child molesters.
I like my fakes, thank you very much
@jwitten
I'll take those fakers home any day of the week
So educate me - if a coin is counterfeit, would it also then be considered intellectual property theft (unless US Mint designs are considered public domain)? It's not your design, but you are using it to produce new products for financial gain. Intent would not be part of the equation anymore. Seems like lawyers would have a few ways to skin this cat, but then again they are also excellent at finding the loopholes, so who knows. After all, they got Al Capone for tax evasion instead of his "regular" crimes.