@koynekwest said:
I'm a fan of just numbers with no other nomenclature, too.
Why not get rid of the numbers too?
... and just put a dollar value.
That works better than you would think. Forget the grade just price it. Unfortunately, prices go up and down.
A Third-Party Pricing Service (TPPS) could slab generic coins with a letter that could be looked up for the going daily wholesale/retail spread. LOL. Sorta like having a MS-63 on a label right?
Except, just like grading, there is no pricing standard. The result would just be replacing a 'Sheldon number' with 'dollar number.' Neither would be 'stable.'
Numismatist Ordinaire See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
Maybe the hobby has evolved to the point where rub/wear has been knocked off its perch as the first requirement for the most desirable coins. Grading has just reacted to this.
"Look up, old boy, and see what you get." -William Bonney.
@amwldcoin said:
So you don't mind a little wear on your 63? I think it would be more attractive and sellable in a 58+ holder myself...especially for the bean hunters!
His pet peeve is friction on an unc coin - he just looked at my otherwise beautiful 1798$1 and said “you know I don’t like friction “
Personally, it’s the finest I’ve ever seen of the date and I have no problem with friction on a 63... so I adore the coin.
You are asserting an opinion in a vacuum - have you seen all the top grade 1798 SE dollars?. There are a multitude of 58-62 coins of this date and they’re all crap compared to this coin. AU 63 is the right grade to him, 63 no matter whether it’s AU or MS is the right grade to me
@breakdown said:
Maybe the hobby has evolved to the point where rub/wear has been knocked off its perch as the first requirement for the most desirable coins. Grading has just reacted to this.
Rub, and strike, are simply additional data points to take into account when net grading a coin. The idea that either magically limit the grade of a coin is farcical. Start at 70 and take every nuance into account.
The replies posted to this thread starkly illustrate the Chmira that the hobby rests upon.
Grading of coins involves giving an "opinion". It is mostly subjective and does not have objective standards upon which one can base a grade.
In many disputes over coins, the subjective nature of a coin's grade will many times doom a lawsuit filed by a disgruntled hobbyist to failure. Selling F-12 coins as MS 63 coins would be easy to legally challenge. Selling AU 58 coins as MS 63 coins is difficult, if not impossible to legally challenge.
His pet peeve is friction on an unc coin - he just looked at my otherwise beautiful 1798$1 and said “you know I don’t like friction “
**Personally, it’s the finest I’ve ever seen of the date... so I adore the coin. **
As you should because the coin is the coin regardless of the label. That said, I don't understand the concept of a higher number is always best, etc. It must be a registry thing.
@scubafuel said:
I like this idea and could imagine expanding it beyond the AU level. For instance, a "perfect" VG (no marks, totally original) is incredibly hard to find, but gets no grading love and is worth 10%? over what a normal one would cost.
How about:
AG through UNC. Score 0 through 9. No details grades.
This would cause all kinds of problems, but it'd be so much fun! Imagine the Registry battles in the mid grades...
That sounds like the PSA grading scale on the sports side of the house:
@breakdown said:
Maybe the hobby has evolved to the point where rub/wear has been knocked off its perch as the first requirement for the most desirable coins. Grading has just reacted to this.
Rub, and strike, are simply additional data points to take into account when net grading a coin. The idea that either magically limit the grade of a coin is farcical. Start at 70 and take every nuance into account.
Every grade of the coin should start with/factor in the condition of the dies and the condition of the planchet. There's no other way around to stamping the perfect coin without these two elements in pristine condition. In 2006 or 2007, the A. N. A. and PCGS radically changed the grading standards forever to avoid the arguments?, lawsuits?, to increase coin submissions? I don't really know with certainty. Or...it became impossible for management to keep all their coin graders on board with the higher/stricter grading standards? I could post those grading standards that existed before the change but what they changed was eliminating/removing all notations that a coin needed to have a sharp/fully detailed strike to grade higher than MS64 and interjecting the term. "as struck". Well, common sense will tell you, all coins are, "as struck" as they come off the dies no matter what stage/state/condition the dies were in. This play of words has damaged the hobby for collectors who have spent their lives searching for the best struck coins only to see coins with inferior strikes getting all the attention, stealing all the money/value from their coins that should have received the recognition. It's likely the labels were selling better than the coins themselves, more profit for most everyone. As a peon collector sitting on the outside, I can only guess at what's likely killing the hobby.
As for AU 60 to AU 64 grades, hurdling the obstacle there are few collectors like yourself who can recognize the higher/same qualities in a coin....you'll just have to wait it out like the rest of us for that well seasoned collector to come along before we demise.
That's right, I'm in the same boat, waiting for that collector with the dough I want for all my nicely struck Jefferson nickels that are not receiving any help from a coin grading company.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
@breakdown said:
Maybe the hobby has evolved to the point where rub/wear has been knocked off its perch as the first requirement for the most desirable coins. Grading has just reacted to this.
Rub, and strike, are simply additional data points to take into account when net grading a coin. The idea that either magically limit the grade of a coin is farcical. Start at 70 and take every nuance into account.
That could would work well if there were no prefix to the numerical grade.
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Acknowledge that some AU coins can be graded as high as 64 by openly creating the AU 60-64 grades.
Or just declare that all grades are meaningless!
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
@tradedollarnut said:
It makes more sense than putting obviously circulated coins in MS64 holders...
So put them in AU holders!!!!!
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
@tradedollarnut said:
It makes more sense than putting obviously circulated coins in MS64 holders...
Said coins should be in 58 or 58+ holders. Why make up grades just to make up for mistakes made by graders.
No they shouldn’t. The grade of a coin should reflect its value. Many coins with a bit of rub sell for MS64 money. The idea their grade maxes out at 58 has come and gone. May as well acknowledge it openly
Where is the "Disagree" button?
The GRADE should reflect the GRADE! That's why we call it the "GRADE," not the "PRICE!"
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
@Broadstruck said:
Why stop at 64... What's wrong with AU67?
And "AU-90" for 1804 dollars only?????
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
@Coinstartled said:
I agree, Bruce. A couple of years ago you posted some examples of lightly circ'd coins that deserved a higher grade than current AU parameters. Maybe one of the forum detectives can dig up the thread.
Then let's raise your avatar's last season batting average to .425, because he swung beautifully!
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
"I want my Little Susie's spelling test score raised to 100 because a lot of other people mis-spell those words the same way she did!"
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
@Coinstartled said:
I agree, Bruce. A couple of years ago you posted some examples of lightly circ'd coins that deserved a higher grade than current AU parameters. Maybe one of the forum detectives can dig up the thread.
Then let's raise your avatar's last season batting average to .425, because he swung beautifully!
Well here it is Tom, and you probably snuck out of class to watch it!
i think these are facts....
1. TPGs came into business to help sight unseen market sell coins. a bridge between buyers and sellers that faith could be placed in to eliminate the question of is this a 64 vs 66 grades.
2. once the internet came we started seeing all the auction prices and we began to justify why this coin or that coin should be better or worse than the results of those auctions.
3. it is bananas to have the idea of an AU63 coin. they are mutually exclusive.
4. price is ONLY predicated on what someone will pay!!! grade does not dictate price! the grade points you to a list of auctions that generate a range of values OTHERS have paid for the coin in a grade. We have all paid more than average and less than average for coins for various reasons. not all 63s are equal, BUT NO AU coin Should have the detail of a 63 and hence the reason the scale exists......
@Coinstartled said:
I agree, Bruce. A couple of years ago you posted some examples of lightly circ'd coins that deserved a higher grade than current AU parameters. Maybe one of the forum detectives can dig up the thread.
Then let's raise your avatar's last season batting average to .425, because he swung beautifully!
Well here it is Tom, and you probably snuck out of class to watch it!
Oddly enough, one of the St. Louis pitchers in that series, Larry Jaster, was a distant cousin of mine. My grandmother was born a Jaster.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
Testing the order in which the threads are appearing.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
@breakdown said:
Maybe the hobby has evolved to the point where rub/wear has been knocked off its perch as the first requirement for the most desirable coins. Grading has just reacted to this.
Rub, and strike, are simply additional data points to take into account when net grading a coin. The idea that either magically limit the grade of a coin is farcical. Start at 70 and take every nuance into account.
That could would work well if there were no prefix to the numerical grade.
Precisely!
Say a coin starts at 70, there are a lot of ways to lose 3 or 4 or 5 points depending on what happens to it over the next years, whether it be 5, 50, 150, or 225 years. Little marks, toning, various tiny rubs from being handled and transferred on surfaces. Strictly speaking, NO coin grading less than 70 is "mint state" they all have little flaws, it makes no sense that bagmarks are a point or two and a touch of rub is automatically exactly 12 points. Some rub is just a point or two..
@tradedollarnut said:
It makes more sense than putting obviously circulated coins in MS64 holders...
So put them in AU holders!!!!!
Good luck catching that horse. He’s already left the barn
“But Jimny’s mom let’s him play with loaded guns!!!”
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
@tradedollarnut said:
It makes more sense than putting obviously circulated coins in MS64 holders...
What makes the MOST SENSE in my humble opinion is to return to the easiest Mint State standard to understand: "NO TRACE OF WEAR."
Circulated grades would be hardly affected at all. The prices for true Uncirculated coins would increase. The grades of 70 -80% of the bottom half of coins graded MS at this time (especially the gold) would drop to the AU range **yet their prices would be virtually unchanged." Coins like that Brasher w/rub would still be worth millions.
Then just grade the coins for their condition of preservation not what folks at a TPGS think they are worth. Best of all more folks would understand the numbers on the label AND...
**CAC would still exist!"
Skip, we agree.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
Could the numerical value of 59 have some use in this discussion? To give some significance or stature to an AU coin that deserves something more then a 58 but not market graded to a 62?
@fc said:
Could the numerical value of 59 have some use in this discussion? To give some significance or stature to an AU coin that deserves something more then a 58 but not market graded to a 62?
While I was at ANACS I certified one Barber dime as an AU-59 because the amount of rub was so small, but later decided not to issue any more.
That coin is probably in an MS-64 holder today.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
@Insider2 said: @Baley said: "Holy cow, this gets more entertaining by the minute!"
I agree! Please help me out here. You posted:
"I can't believe anyone thinks an otherwise MS70 coin with the barest trace of wear on just the very highest points of the design grades 58. and meanwhile an otherwise MS70 coin with dozens of heavy contact marks from other coins all over both sides of it grades 60.
Question: What is the grade of an otherwise MS70 coin with the barest trace of wear on just the very highest points of the design?
66.6
and...What is the grade of an otherwise MS70 coin with dozens of heavy contact marks from other coins all over both sides?
@TommyType said:
Some of this reminds me of the guy who claimed that a coin received in change can't POSSIBLY be "uncirculated" because the coin was once used in commerce.
In other words: You're taking the grading terminology way too literally.
>
Not really. The debate with the use of the misnomer "uncirculated" is really a semantic one. The difference here is a qualitative one.
Yes and no. While some would come down on the side that "Wear is Wear!!", (qualitative), the semantics debate is over what constitutes circulation wear, vs. "cabinet friction", vs. strike flatness, vs. bag/roll/stacking friction, vs. "the fields are so pristine, that can't possibly be circulation wear...can it?".
I think if 10 people looked at the same high grade, imperfect high point coin, you might get a half dozen different opinions.
The TPG's put down an imperfect line in the sand. Drawing a different imperfect line doesn't solve anything, it just asks the entire hobby to change again.
It all depends on the skill of the examiners. If they are competent enough to know the difference between the different ways a coin's design and luster are lost and they are told that they can tell the truth without anyone knowing what they really think, I'll bet you would be surprised at the uniformity of opinion on any coin (as long as its value is not considered).
Comments
I have another question...
Does JA CAC AU62, AU63, & AU64 coins?
JA doesn't sticker dreck!
Can't everyone just realize that circulated coins are graded on a scale of 1 to 58 while
uncirculated coins are graded on a scale of 60-70
Circulated coins should not enter the 60-70 range and MS coins should not enter the 1-58 range.
His pet peeve is friction on an unc coin - he just looked at my otherwise beautiful 1798$1 and said “you know I don’t like friction “
Personally, it’s the finest I’ve ever seen of the date and I have no problem with friction on a 63... so I adore the coin.
Except, just like grading, there is no pricing standard. The result would just be replacing a 'Sheldon number' with 'dollar number.' Neither would be 'stable.'
See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
So you don't mind a little wear on your 63? I think it would be more attractive and sellable in a 58+ holder myself...especially for the bean hunters!
Maybe the hobby has evolved to the point where rub/wear has been knocked off its perch as the first requirement for the most desirable coins. Grading has just reacted to this.
"Look up, old boy, and see what you get." -William Bonney.
You are asserting an opinion in a vacuum - have you seen all the top grade 1798 SE dollars?. There are a multitude of 58-62 coins of this date and they’re all crap compared to this coin. AU 63 is the right grade to him, 63 no matter whether it’s AU or MS is the right grade to me
Rub, and strike, are simply additional data points to take into account when net grading a coin. The idea that either magically limit the grade of a coin is farcical. Start at 70 and take every nuance into account.
The replies posted to this thread starkly illustrate the Chmira that the hobby rests upon.
Grading of coins involves giving an "opinion". It is mostly subjective and does not have objective standards upon which one can base a grade.
In many disputes over coins, the subjective nature of a coin's grade will many times doom a lawsuit filed by a disgruntled hobbyist to failure. Selling F-12 coins as MS 63 coins would be easy to legally challenge. Selling AU 58 coins as MS 63 coins is difficult, if not impossible to legally challenge.
As you should because the coin is the coin regardless of the label. That said, I don't understand the concept of a higher number is always best, etc. It must be a registry thing.
.
Did it sticker?
It's not that simple because TDN mentions a range of AU60-AU64. It may need to have:
AU60 = AU58+
AU61 = AU58++
AU62 = AU58+++
AU63 = AU58++++
AU64 = AU58+++++
Would a MS64 sell for more than an AU64? If so, would this create more revenue?
That sounds like the PSA grading scale on the sports side of the house:
Every grade of the coin should start with/factor in the condition of the dies and the condition of the planchet. There's no other way around to stamping the perfect coin without these two elements in pristine condition. In 2006 or 2007, the A. N. A. and PCGS radically changed the grading standards forever to avoid the arguments?, lawsuits?, to increase coin submissions? I don't really know with certainty. Or...it became impossible for management to keep all their coin graders on board with the higher/stricter grading standards? I could post those grading standards that existed before the change but what they changed was eliminating/removing all notations that a coin needed to have a sharp/fully detailed strike to grade higher than MS64 and interjecting the term. "as struck". Well, common sense will tell you, all coins are, "as struck" as they come off the dies no matter what stage/state/condition the dies were in. This play of words has damaged the hobby for collectors who have spent their lives searching for the best struck coins only to see coins with inferior strikes getting all the attention, stealing all the money/value from their coins that should have received the recognition. It's likely the labels were selling better than the coins themselves, more profit for most everyone. As a peon collector sitting on the outside, I can only guess at what's likely killing the hobby.
As for AU 60 to AU 64 grades, hurdling the obstacle there are few collectors like yourself who can recognize the higher/same qualities in a coin....you'll just have to wait it out like the rest of us for that well seasoned collector to come along before we demise.
That's right, I'm in the same boat, waiting for that collector with the dough I want for all my nicely struck Jefferson nickels that are not receiving any help from a coin grading company.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
That could would work well if there were no prefix to the numerical grade.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Or just declare that all grades are meaningless!
So put them in AU holders!!!!!
Where is the "Disagree" button?
The GRADE should reflect the GRADE! That's why we call it the "GRADE," not the "PRICE!"
And "AU-90" for 1804 dollars only?????
Then let's raise your avatar's last season batting average to .425, because he swung beautifully!
"I want my Little Susie's spelling test score raised to 100 because a lot of other people mis-spell those words the same way she did!"
Me and Capt' think alike.
Well here it is Tom, and you probably snuck out of class to watch it!
i think these are facts....
1. TPGs came into business to help sight unseen market sell coins. a bridge between buyers and sellers that faith could be placed in to eliminate the question of is this a 64 vs 66 grades.
2. once the internet came we started seeing all the auction prices and we began to justify why this coin or that coin should be better or worse than the results of those auctions.
3. it is bananas to have the idea of an AU63 coin. they are mutually exclusive.
4. price is ONLY predicated on what someone will pay!!! grade does not dictate price! the grade points you to a list of auctions that generate a range of values OTHERS have paid for the coin in a grade. We have all paid more than average and less than average for coins for various reasons. not all 63s are equal, BUT NO AU coin Should have the detail of a 63 and hence the reason the scale exists......
[Ebay Store - Come Visit]
Roosevelt Registry
transactions with cucamongacoin, FHC, mtinis, bigjpst, Rob41281, toyz4geo, erwindoc, add your name here!!!
Oddly enough, one of the St. Louis pitchers in that series, Larry Jaster, was a distant cousin of mine. My grandmother was born a Jaster.
Testing the order in which the threads are appearing.
Good luck catching that horse. He’s already left the barn
Next > @tradedollarnut said:
It's not too late to tranquilize him and send him to the glue factory.
Precisely!
Say a coin starts at 70, there are a lot of ways to lose 3 or 4 or 5 points depending on what happens to it over the next years, whether it be 5, 50, 150, or 225 years. Little marks, toning, various tiny rubs from being handled and transferred on surfaces. Strictly speaking, NO coin grading less than 70 is "mint state" they all have little flaws, it makes no sense that bagmarks are a point or two and a touch of rub is automatically exactly 12 points. Some rub is just a point or two..
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
“But Jimny’s mom let’s him play with loaded guns!!!”
In that case, Jimmy has a fighting chance to catch the horse.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
I’m feeling down.
Skip, we agree.
Could the numerical value of 59 have some use in this discussion? To give some significance or stature to an AU coin that deserves something more then a 58 but not market graded to a 62?
While I was at ANACS I certified one Barber dime as an AU-59 because the amount of rub was so small, but later decided not to issue any more.
That coin is probably in an MS-64 holder today.
@Baley said:
Well, one out of to is pretty good.
It all depends on the skill of the examiners. If they are competent enough to know the difference between the different ways a coin's design and luster are lost and they are told that they can tell the truth without anyone knowing what they really think, I'll bet you would be surprised at the uniformity of opinion on any coin (as long as its value is not considered).