Solve This Bust Half Mystery

GOLDSAINT · October 3, 2005 7:32PM

Some say with the Internet nothing is secret any longer, lets see.

Perhaps the Worlds largest collection of Bust Half dollars ever assembled was the Al Overton collection.

Some time in 1993 the cream of the collection was sent to NGC and then sold intact to an UNDISCLOSED buyer in July.

After 12 years the buyer of this collection remains anonymous.

Supposedly the collection was sold to a buyer in the Midwest.

The buyer is not a member of the B.H.N.C.

Also, supposedly the buyer continues to add to this collection even now.

Sheridan Downey and Don Parsley, Overton’s son in law, are supposed to be the only ones who know the name and location of the buyer.

It appears the collection was broken into three parts; the Overton inventory was sold in 1974 by a dealer named Lester Merkin via mail bid.

In 1990 the Overton/Parsley duplicates, nearly 800 coins were sent to NGC to be certified. All of these coins had a pedigree “ Overton/Parsley” put on the labels.
Rumor has it that all of these have now been sold. Perhaps one of our collectors can show one of those pedigreed slabs.

So who is the Worlds largest Bust Half Dollar collector?
In what city does he reside?
If the duplicates amounted to 800 coins, how many coins were sold to the mystery buyer?

Can you add any additional information to the clues to help solve this mystery?

slumlord98 · October 3, 2005 11:32PM

Hi Goldsaint,

In '74, some of Overton's lesser dupes were consigned to Merkin for sale by Don. Although cataloged by Merkin as the "Overton Reference Collection", that simply wasn't true. These were just the most expendable coins. In 1991, Don consigned two double row boxes of coins to Sheridan Downey and these were sold at fixed price over a period of time. At no time in 1990 were any coins slabbed as part of the Overton collection and sold. In 1993 the Overton Reference Collection was consigned (some say sold) to Downey. He approached PCGS, but they would not put Overton's name on the slabs and were not able to slab them in a timely manner, according to Downey. NGC was apparently more accomodating. I don't know the number of coins that were then slabbed by NGC, but I'd bet it is less than 800. There have never been any coins available on the market slabbed as "Overton Reference Collection". Anything slabbed with the Overton name (and I've never seen or heard of any) would be coins sold raw by either Merkin or Downey. As per their norm, NGC graded these coins MOST liberally.

Downey advertised the collection in Numismatic News and in a letter to his clients, and cataloged a number of the coins, along with other consignments in his Mail Bid sale#9, (a catalog that sells for a hefty premium these days) and the rest of the collection was to be offered at fixed price at the ANA. Shortly before the sale, he sent out a letter informing everyone that the collection had been sold intact to an anonymous buyer. There is a rumor that the 17/4 had been sold and had to be bought back. The current owner has added to his collection, and is rumored to lack only two DMs.

As to who has the largest collection today, it is unquestionably a BHNC member who would not appreciate his name bandied about on a public forum.

Longtime lurker outed courtesy of Jade.

From forum member Preturb, a Numismatic News clipping from July 27, 1993, states that the collection consisted of 1,067 coins and was brokered by JJ Van Grover. It also states that the price was "high seven figures", which is incorrect. Downey says he only told the reporter that it was a seven figure deal.

mozin · October 4, 2005 3:28AM

Those Capped Bust Halves are sure exciting to collect!

GOLDSAINT · October 4, 2005 6:51AM

Thanks for your posts.

So are there any collectors that can post an NGC slab with the overton pedigree?

TomB · October 4, 2005 7:47AM

I've neither seen nor heard of an Overton pedigree on an NGC slab, however, that does not mean that they could not exist. Have you tried to look through the NGC database? I believe they might list coins in pedigreed holders individually.

PreTurb · October 4, 2005 8:54AM

There are many coins from the 1993 (cancelled) Downey auction that are very rare and would be instantly recognizable - and I havn't seen any of these (rare ones) come to the market since then. I certainly could have missed them... but my guess is that the group is still held intact.

PS: Also, many Overton duplicates were sold through Kagin's auction sales in the early 80's.

GOLDSAINT · October 4, 2005 9:04AM

"In 1990 the Overton/Parsley duplicates, nearly 800 coins were sent to NGC to be certified. All of these coins had a pedigree “ Overton/Parsley” put on the labels."

This is information that got directly from Mr. Downey

Surely someone out in our membership owns some of these pedigreed coins?

Thanks Tom I will see what NGC has.

GOLDSAINT · October 4, 2005 9:28AM

New info. It may have been that the sale of the 800 duplicates were not sent to NGC after all, but rather Mr. Downey had special inserts made for the coins to sell in flips saying " Overton/Parsley"?

mozin · October 4, 2005 9:55AM

That sounds familiar. I think only some of the actual auction coins went to NGC.

GOLDSAINT · October 4, 2005 7:28PM

"There is a rumor that the 17/4 had been sold and had to be bought back. The current owner has added to his collection, and is rumored to lack only two DMs.”

slumlord98

This rumor appears to be incorrect; unless the G 6 repaired 17/4 was bought back and re-sold by Parsley who then bought NGC VF 20.

COINFACTS
“Good 6, repaired. The Al C. Overton Specimen. Located in 1963 or 1964 by Ed Shapiro; to Dan Messer, 1964 or 1965; then to John Cobb of Mountain View, CA in 1965. Cobb sold his collection to Steve Markoff in 1969. Overton immediately bought the coin, placing it in his collection after commissioning the repair of the gouge on the reverse. To Donald and Bonnie Parsley upon Overton's death in 1972; to Sheridan Downey, as part of the "Overton Collection," in April 1993; to the purchaser of the Overton Collection in July 1993.”

“NGC Very Fine-20. The Alfred E. Burke Specimen. Acquired by Philadelphian Al Burke in 1965 as a mis-attributed 1817 "Punctuated Date" (Overton 103). Identified as an 1817/4 in 1973 or 1974. Following Burke's death in January 1997, the coin was consigned by his widow to Sheridan Downey and sold to Donald Parsley in a sealed bid offering, April 1, 1997 for $135,000.00. Parsley is the son-in-law of Al Overton and edited the 1990 (3rd ed.) revision of Overton's reference book on Bust Half Dollars.”

“Some say with the Internet nothing is secret any longer, lets see.”

I suppose that the above statement is not true, at least not yet.

From PM’S I have received It does appear that there are others that do know the name and location of this mystery buyer, but feel obligated in some way to protect his “privacy”.
I am sure that there may be many others that know but, are just not visitors here, but those in the know appear to be at least 5 individuals.

BHNC member Charlton Meyer owns all 450 die marriages listed in the Overton book, that is published information, and who knows how many other coins Mr. Meyer may own?

If the number of 1,067 is correct for the Overton buyer, and he has been adding to that collection for 12 years then he should be the Worlds largest Bust Half collector. It also appears that he will remain anonymous, at least for now.

slumlord98 · October 4, 2005 10:41PM

Parsley bought a number of coins for his personal collection after he sold the ORC. Among them was the Alfred Burke 17 102a, previously graded as F12. He has been consigning them to Downey's sales for several years. The Burke coin was sold at the ANA to a friend of mine. The Overton specimen ranks last on the CC, behind even the corroded specimen recently found and sent to ANACS for authentication.

The current owner of the ORC has added some coins to his collection, but is not within a country mile of the greatest collection of bust halves ever formed; greatest for quantity, and for overall quality, including the # of finest knowns. At one time Overton had a higher number of coins accumulated in his quest to identify every known die and die marriage. But neither Overton nor Parsley was a student of die states.

GOLDSAINT · October 5, 2005 6:30AM

“If the number of 1,067 is correct for the Overton buyer, and he has been adding to that collection for 12 years then he should be the Worlds largest Bust Half collector.”

To clarify my statement, lets say largest number of various types of bust half dollars.

slumlord98

Would you please tell us exactly how you know the veracity of the two statements you made below?

“As to who has the largest collection today, it is unquestionably a BHNC member who would not appreciate his name bandied about on a public forum.”

“The current owner of the ORC has added some coins to his collection, but is not within a country mile of the greatest collection of bust halves ever formed;”

slumlord98 · October 5, 2005 7:18AM

As to who has the largest collection today, it is unquestionably a BHNC member who would not appreciate his name bandied about on a public forum

He's a friend, and I've seen parts of his collection. He is a true connoisuer and an astute student of the series. Beyond this, I'm not at liberty to discuss his holdings.

The current owner of the ORC has added some coins to his collection, but is not within a country mile of the greatest collection of bust halves ever formed;”

The ORC was of uneven quality. If you closely examine 3rd ed. plates, some of the coins, especially preturbs, look awful. The ORC 17 102 is at the bottom of the CC. The collection isn't upgraded from what I've heard. Also, reports claim that this individual is not a student of the series. Doesn't pursue die states, wouldn't know a die crack from a line of crack. According to the 7-93 clipping, the ORC was bought as an investment.

I wish there was more to share, but you are talking about two individuals who value their privacy. I'll share what I can but have to respect the wishes of others. It's understandable that you want to know more, but it isn't possible.

GOLDSAINT · October 5, 2005 9:16AM

O.K.

slumlord98

So this is what you said, “ From forum member Preturb, a Numismatic News clipping from July 27, 1993, states that the collection consisted of 1,067 coins and was brokered by JJ Van Grover.”

So who has the current largest collection of Bust Halves in the country, in QUANTITYand DIVERSITY. If the Overton Collection Owner has 1,067 and has bought some additional coins over the last several years, then perhaps he has 1,100.

Your BHNC guy has how many? We don’t need to know his name, and address, but we need a little more than this if we are going to get to the truth of the matter.

“He's a friend, and I've seen parts of his collection.”

Just part?

“The ORC was of uneven quality.”

Right now this does not count

“The ORC 17 102 is at the bottom of the CC.”

This does not count either.

“you are talking about two individuals who value their privacy.”

This also does not count, we only want to know HOW MANY.

mozin · October 5, 2005 1:36PM

goldsaint,

I think you got all you are going to get from slumlord98.

He is correct on who has the best Bust Half collection of all time. I met the man and saw some of his collection. I had no idea that anyone had such fine Busties both for grade and quantity.

GOLDSAINT · October 5, 2005 10:10PM

I think most Bust half collectors would agree that Sheridan Downey has been the dealer most involved with the Bust Half collector community. I think as a dealer he has also kept the best records of collectors through the years. Last night I ask him if he would provide us some information for our discussion. The questions I posed to him was this,

who has the current largest collection of Bust Halves in the country, in quantity and diversity?

Here is his part of his answer,
“most BHNC members limit themselves to the Capped Bust series. Meyer, the Overton buyer and a Connecticut BHNC member go from 1794 through 1836. None has a significant quantity of duplicates, although the Overton collection includes a mini-date collection of double profiles.”

“The Overton collection is slightly better quality as it has a few super gems, MS 66 and the like.”

So I think in his opinion the Overton collection is still the King!

I want to thank all of you who added to this thread.

Over the last couple of years as I have been building my own personal Bust half collection I have found it very interesting to hear the stories, and struggles, of other past collectors. Numismatics consists of many parts, and the histories of great past collectors are a big part of that in my case.

We have not learned who the mystery buyer of the Overton collection is, but we have learned the following:

From those that have actual numbers on both BHNC members and non-members
The Overton buyer still seems to have the largest collection in both quantity and diversity, and perhaps quality.

The Overton collection was broken into three major sales, the first a mail bid sale of inventory.

The second about 800 duplicates sold by Downey with his own Overton/Parsley labels. ( I think those coins are now lost to history as the direct tie to Overton could now never be proven)

The third the approx. 1,067 coins sold to the Mystery buyer. These were certified by NGC with an Overton pedigree, but as per Mr. Downey, were NOT attributed.

For those of you that have my same interest in the History of great Bust Halve collectors I will be posting a thread on Jules Reiver some time today.

slumlord98 · October 5, 2005 11:41PM

Trust me, Sheridan is aware of others. The fact that he didn't say more should tell you something. Overton IS NOT number 1. Not even close. If you have a real interest in learning more, join the BHNC if you already own 100 or more DMs. But understand that the BHNC confidentiality agreement that all members sign provides for substantial fines and expulsion for disclosing the holdings of other members.

13PacesEast · October 5, 2005 11:54PM

Colonel Mustard, in the kitchen with the candlestick?

GOLDSAINT · October 6, 2005 5:41AM

“Trust me, Sheridan is aware of others. The fact that he didn't say more should tell you something. Overton IS NOT number 1. Not even close.”

slumlord98

I will offer you a little advice I offered one other new member here the other day. There is an unwritten rule here on the forum, and that rule is that you need to prove your case, to win your point.
Don’t feel bad if you did not know this, I did not either when I first got here.

You brought up some great points and we thank you for that, but you cannot prove your case that the Mystery Overton buyer is not the King of the Bust Half collectors, since you have not seen the collection.

Mr. Downey who has most likely seen all of the very large collections believes that the Overton is the top collection, so I believe he is a better judge. In his defense, since he is not here, he did not disclose any owners names, but simple gave me the details in numbers, quality, quantity, coins missing etc.

As far as this comment, “The fact that he didn't say more should tell you something.”

It is also a good idea to learn to read the posts correctly, what I said was, “Here is his part of his answer,”

I thought that much of the other information he sent me did not pertain to this thread.

Nysoto · October 6, 2005 6:38AM

Even if all information were known on the best bust half collections, there would be disagreement on who has the best. Some would take die state quantity over quality, others would strictly look at grades. I certainly don't know who has the "best" collection, but I would expect a person who has continuously improved their collection of 1794-1839 halves over many years to have the best bust half collection.

I would rather debate something much more exciting, like die states on the 1806/5 O.104!

seanq · October 6, 2005 6:51AM

<< <i>But understand that the BHNC confidentiality agreement that all members sign provides for substantial fines and expulsion for disclosing the holdings of other members. >>

What an intriguing concept. Is that agreement there for reasons of individual security, or is Bust Half collecting just that competitive?

Anyway, since you said the holder of the finest set isn't a BHNC member, that should mean his holdings and identity are fair game, right? Please post his name, address, and a brief physical description to this thread, so me and some other people on the internet you've never met can read it.

Sean Reynolds

GOLDSAINT · October 6, 2005 7:10AM

“Even if all information were known on the best bust half collections, there would be disagreement on who has the best.”

Bill,

This is of course very true.
My original purpose for this thread was to add to our knowledge of Bust half History and not try to pick the King.

For all we know you may be the King, how many other BHNC members have over 70 die marriages of 1794-1807 ?

Nysoto · October 6, 2005 7:17AM

<< <i>For all we know you may be the King >>

Actually, some great collections are anonymously listed in the JRCS Pre-turb census. I have a long way to go!

Sean1990 · October 30, 2018 5:38PM

I just purchased this example. I am very excited to add it to the collection! This is an example of the O-135 R3. I realize I am about 13 years late to the conversation...

hchcoin · October 30, 2018 5:52PM

Better late than never. Nice bust half with a cool label.

Treashunt · October 31, 2018 5:48AM

@Sean1990 said:

I just purchased this example. I am very excited to add it to the collection! This is an example of the O-135 R3. I realize I am about 13 years late to the conversation...

color me jealous!

habaraca · October 31, 2018 7:07AM

Nice That Beauty would grade AU58 today..........

CaptHenway · October 31, 2018 7:11AM

A minor story re Overton. While I worked for ANACS from 1978 to 1984, we tried to assign variety numbers on series where that mattered. I usually did the attributions because I was best at it. Overton numbers were sometimes hard to do because of the dot screening of the photographs.

I was also a member of the two local coin clubs. Mrs. Overton occasionally attended the meetings of one of them.

I heard from ANA Treasurer Bill Henderson, who had been a very good friend of Al Overton, that Mrs. Overton still had the negatives for the pictures used in the book. I asked him to ask her if the ANA could borrow the negatives to make one glossy print from each to use as an in-house attribution aid and not for publication. According to Bill she replied "No! I'll never get them back!" I have no idea what subsequently happened to them.

TD

logger7 · October 31, 2018 7:52AM

@mozin said:
goldsaint,

I think you got all you are going to get from slumlord98. He is correct on who has the best Bust Half collection of all time. I met the man and saw some of his collection. I had no idea that anyone had such fine Busties both for grade and quantity.

Hi Mozin, haven't seen you in a while, hope everything is ok.

OKbustchaser · October 31, 2018 8:34AM

@logger7 said:

@mozin said:
goldsaint,

I think you got all you are going to get from slumlord98. He is correct on who has the best Bust Half collection of all time. I met the man and saw some of his collection. I had no idea that anyone had such fine Busties both for grade and quantity.

Hi Mozin, haven't seen you in a while, hope everything is ok.

You still haven't. His post was from 2005.

logger7 · October 31, 2018 8:43AM

He was last on last year.

Solve This Bust Half Mystery

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