@Rittenhouse said:
Anyone with a middling ability could have done this, and I strongly suspect they did.
I think it would be neat if ANA had some classes on this. It could add some more fun to the Summer Seminar, like minting your own tokens.
They probably explain the process in the counterfeit detection class, but I think it would be irresponsible to teach it, as it would then be seen as a skill that they endorse their members having and paying them money to learn. Likewise for AT'ing coins.
Anyone with a bit of mechanical ability and the desire can easily google how to do it. There are period manuals and articles detailing the process. Not very difficult,
Have enjoyed the thread so much with all the cool electro's it inspired me to shoot a few pics this AM.
On the envelopes of these, it's noted they were probably mint made.
"My friends who see my collection sometimes ask what something costs. I tell them and they are in awe at my stupidity." (Baccaruda, 12/03).I find it hard to believe that he (Trump) rushed to some hotel to meet girls of loose morals, although ours are undoubtedly the best in the world. (Putin 1/17) Gone but not forgotten. IGWT, Speedy, Bear, BigE, HokieFore, John Burns, Russ, TahoeDale, Dahlonega, Astrorat, Stewart Blay, Oldhoopster, Broadstruck, Ricko, Big Moose, Cardinal.
"My friends who see my collection sometimes ask what something costs. I tell them and they are in awe at my stupidity." (Baccaruda, 12/03).I find it hard to believe that he (Trump) rushed to some hotel to meet girls of loose morals, although ours are undoubtedly the best in the world. (Putin 1/17) Gone but not forgotten. IGWT, Speedy, Bear, BigE, HokieFore, John Burns, Russ, TahoeDale, Dahlonega, Astrorat, Stewart Blay, Oldhoopster, Broadstruck, Ricko, Big Moose, Cardinal.
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
@Lakesammman said:
Have enjoyed the thread so much with all the cool electro's it inspired me to shoot a few pics this AM.
On the envelopes of these, it's noted they were probably mint made.
Yup, I'll have to shoot some more of mine.
They could be "mint." I do have docs noting the mint was making an offering electro's. Now, those were medals by Peale, but if you're making one you can make the other. And we do know that the mint made the one 1804 dollar electro, probably DuBois, who at one time was curator of the Mint Cabinet collection.
I just acquired this one -- an "original electrotype," as these could only be made at that time using the electrotype method. (The dies were too large to safely strike any non-electrotype pieces.)
This one is 140mm in diameter, and weighs 23 troy ounces of copper.
The crackdown on electros in 1885 came at the same time as the crackdown on pattern production at the Mint. Since Kimball, the new director, was behind the latter, he was probably also behind the former.
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Doubtful. They’ve been called electros over the years because they have a seam on the edge, but the seam is very unusual and the coins ring perfectly. My guess is that the planchets were produced in some new, experimental way, and that they’re not electros at all.
That said, I believe that sloppy electros of these so-called electros do exist.
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
@MrEureka said:
The crackdown on electros in 1885 came at the same time as the crackdown on pattern production at the Mint. Since Kimball, the new director, was behind the latter, he was probably also behind the former.
It's not certain that Kimball was behind the electro crackdown. The whole kerfuffle starts sometime in late 1885 with the seizure of 1804 dollar and half dollar counterfeits and altered dates.
As near as I've been able to piece together, either Kimball or a collector with a lot of influence complained about an 1804 half dollar counterfeit which was seized from an auction.
In January 1886, the Secret Service either decided or was convinced that electro's were also a problem and they sent out at least one letter demanding information to the Chapman brothers. Shortly after that, they seized electro's from Low, Levick, and Woodward.
In April 1886, an article in the American Journal of Numismatics notes that the USSS broke up "a company of counterfeiters in Philadelphia , who have made a business of manufacturing fac similes of rare old coins of various nationalities, ancient and modern. They are said to have got good prices for them from amateur numismatists, through their agents all over the country. They had some 4000 designs. In as much as it was their first offence, and they did .not debauch the currency, they were only punished by the confiscation of their designs, materials, etc., and a threat of prosecution should they repeat the offence."
I have a FOIA request in to try to find out how the whole thing really started and who was involved.
@MrEureka said:
Doubtful. They’ve been called electros over the years because they have a seam on the edge, but the seam is very unusual and the coins ring perfectly. My guess is that the planchets were produced in some new, experimental way, and that they’re not electros at all.
That said, I believe that sloppy electros of these so-called electros do exist.
Andy, do you have any photos of the edge? I'd like to see. As far as ringing, I have several electro's that sound pretty darn good and articles in AJN also note that.
@MrEureka said:
Doubtful. They’ve been called electros over the years because they have a seam on the edge, but the seam is very unusual and the coins ring perfectly. My guess is that the planchets were produced in some new, experimental way, and that they’re not electros at all.
That said, I believe that sloppy electros of these so-called electros do exist.
Andy, do you have any photos of the edge? I'd like to see. As far as ringing, I have several electro's that sound pretty darn good and articles in AJN also note that.
I don’t have any photos but I did just happen to look at one. My rough impression was that the upper and lower portions of the edge had a somewhat different texture and metal flow from each other, and that they were not on a perfect plane. The edge didn’t look like that of a normal electro, and it didn’t look like a normal planchet punching tear. I’m not sure what it is, except that it’s unusual.
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
@MrEureka said:
Doubtful. They’ve been called electros over the years because they have a seam on the edge, but the seam is very unusual and the coins ring perfectly. My guess is that the planchets were produced in some new, experimental way, and that they’re not electros at all.
That said, I believe that sloppy electros of these so-called electros do exist.
Andy, do you have any photos of the edge? I'd like to see. As far as ringing, I have several electro's that sound pretty darn good and articles in AJN also note that.
I don’t have any photos but I did just happen to look at one. My rough impression was that the upper and lower portions of the edge had a somewhat different texture and metal flow from each other, and that they were not on a perfect plane. The edge didn’t look like that of a normal electro, and it didn’t look like a normal planchet punching tear. I’m not sure what it is, except that it’s unusual.
Comments
Anyone with a bit of mechanical ability and the desire can easily google how to do it. There are period manuals and articles detailing the process. Not very difficult,
I think the more we teach about what the fakes look like by showing how they were made betters the hobbyist.
I forgot to add this one. A little soft on the details but then again there is a lot of detail
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CoinsAreFun Toned Silver Eagle Proof Album
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Gallery Mint Museum, Ron Landis& Joe Rust, The beginnings of the Golden Dollar
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More CoinsAreFun Pictorials NGC
Gorgeous piece. If you ever get tired of it....
I had this one (Jefferson Head) about 15 or 20 years ago.
I should have just put it in a drawer, but I sold it instead. Now I regret it.
Have enjoyed the thread so much with all the cool electro's it inspired me to shoot a few pics this AM.
On the envelopes of these, it's noted they were probably mint made.
@Lakesammman I'm jealous.....such nice ones!!!
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CoinsAreFun Toned Silver Eagle Proof Album
.
Gallery Mint Museum, Ron Landis& Joe Rust, The beginnings of the Golden Dollar
.
More CoinsAreFun Pictorials NGC
I also forgot about this one.
We need to start a thread with just electro’s So we can keep it for future reference.
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CoinsAreFun Toned Silver Eagle Proof Album
.
Gallery Mint Museum, Ron Landis& Joe Rust, The beginnings of the Golden Dollar
.
More CoinsAreFun Pictorials NGC
Now that's a nice one!
@coinsarefun That is a fascinating piece! An electrotype of a restrike of a pattern ?? (Well maybe not a "true" pattern, but still.)
Great thread and I learned a ton
Thanks all for sharing
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Not surprised. They made anything interesting. Like I said, my 1799 cent is an electro of an altered date 1798.
Umm, that's what this is.
Yup, I'll have to shoot some more of mine.
They could be "mint." I do have docs noting the mint was making an offering electro's. Now, those were medals by Peale, but if you're making one you can make the other. And we do know that the mint made the one 1804 dollar electro, probably DuBois, who at one time was curator of the Mint Cabinet collection.
I just acquired this one -- an "original electrotype," as these could only be made at that time using the electrotype method. (The dies were too large to safely strike any non-electrotype pieces.)
This one is 140mm in diameter, and weighs 23 troy ounces of copper.
Holy cow @cardinal now that’s a medal
.
CoinsAreFun Toned Silver Eagle Proof Album
.
Gallery Mint Museum, Ron Landis& Joe Rust, The beginnings of the Golden Dollar
.
More CoinsAreFun Pictorials NGC
The crackdown on electros in 1885 came at the same time as the crackdown on pattern production at the Mint. Since Kimball, the new director, was behind the latter, he was probably also behind the former.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Doubtful. They’ve been called electros over the years because they have a seam on the edge, but the seam is very unusual and the coins ring perfectly. My guess is that the planchets were produced in some new, experimental way, and that they’re not electros at all.
That said, I believe that sloppy electros of these so-called electros do exist.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
It's not certain that Kimball was behind the electro crackdown. The whole kerfuffle starts sometime in late 1885 with the seizure of 1804 dollar and half dollar counterfeits and altered dates.
As near as I've been able to piece together, either Kimball or a collector with a lot of influence complained about an 1804 half dollar counterfeit which was seized from an auction.
In January 1886, the Secret Service either decided or was convinced that electro's were also a problem and they sent out at least one letter demanding information to the Chapman brothers. Shortly after that, they seized electro's from Low, Levick, and Woodward.
In April 1886, an article in the American Journal of Numismatics notes that the USSS broke up "a company of counterfeiters in Philadelphia , who have made a business of manufacturing fac similes of rare old coins of various nationalities, ancient and modern. They are said to have got good prices for them from amateur numismatists, through their agents all over the country. They had some 4000 designs. In as much as it was their first offence, and they did .not debauch the currency, they were only punished by the confiscation of their designs, materials, etc., and a threat of prosecution should they repeat the offence."
I have a FOIA request in to try to find out how the whole thing really started and who was involved.
Andy, do you have any photos of the edge? I'd like to see. As far as ringing, I have several electro's that sound pretty darn good and articles in AJN also note that.
I don’t have any photos but I did just happen to look at one. My rough impression was that the upper and lower portions of the edge had a somewhat different texture and metal flow from each other, and that they were not on a perfect plane. The edge didn’t look like that of a normal electro, and it didn’t look like a normal planchet punching tear. I’m not sure what it is, except that it’s unusual.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Very interesting. Thanks for sharing that information.
Great thread!
Hmm, I might have to buy one an pop it.