I have always wondered....Greysheet question

Coin Finder · August 29, 2018 9:02AM

The new monthly Greysheet is really nice and packed with info. For small dealers like me, once a month pricing works fine.

Who are the people that actually decide weather a coin goes up or goes down or stays the same price. Is it all auction results or is there more to it?

1630Boston · August 29, 2018 9:05AM

It's good to wonder
@JohnF will probably answer this although if I remember it has been answered before in other threads here, I will try to find one

1630Boston · August 29, 2018 9:08AM

Here is some info
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/983469/grey-sheet-gets-it-wrong

Coin Finder · August 29, 2018 9:25AM

Great info thanks... So lets take a 1925 pcgs buffalo nickle in ms66 CAC...
Sheet has a non CAC at $525 with a red down arrow. Lastest monthly.
I say non CAC becasue there is no column for CAC in that category.....Yet. I know its coming.
I just saw two of this same coin and grade go off at Great Collections.

https://greatcollections.com/Coin/605468/1925-Buffalo-Nickel-PCGS-MS-66-CAC

https://www.greatcollections.com/Coin/601489/1925-Buffalo-Nickel-PCGS-MS-66-CAC-OGH

So will the next greysheet reflect this increase? I do have selfish reasons as I own a 1925 PCGS ms66 CAC coin that is as nice as these...

jmlanzaf · August 29, 2018 10:24AM

@thebigeng said:
Great info thanks... So lets take a 1925 pcgs buffalo nickle in ms66 CAC...
Sheet has a non CAC at $525 with a red down arrow. Lastest monthly.
I say non CAC becasue there is no column for CAC in that category.....Yet. I know its coming.
I just saw two of this same coin and grade go off at Great Collections.

So will the next greysheet reflect this increase? I do have selfish reasons as I own a 1925 PCGS ms66 CAC coin that is as nice as these...

The greysheet raw Buff "bid" should not directly, if at all, reflect a slabbed CAC'ed Buff "ask".

Coin Finder · August 29, 2018 5:20PM

Thanks! I wonder how anyone could sell a raw buff to someone as a ms66??

Kccoin · August 29, 2018 6:33PM

Does anyone read page 3 of the greysheet?

jmlanzaf · August 29, 2018 6:59PM

@Kccoin said:
Does anyone read page 3 of the greysheet?

LOL. You could have stopped after the 3rd word.

jmlanzaf · August 29, 2018 6:59PM

@thebigeng said:
Thanks! I wonder how anyone could sell a raw buff to someone as a ms66??

That's why the greysheet 66 price is usually higher than the bluesheet 66. The blues are sight unseen slabs. The greys are sight seen coins.

Coin Finder · August 29, 2018 8:32PM

Ya I know all that. I have read the page three, something about this being a negotiating starting point.. Would anyone is this day of TPG and CAC ever take the word of someone else that this raw buff is a 66? My question would be ok is it an A,B.C or D 66....I may think its not a 66 at all. I have asked this before.....When I am offered bluesheet price for a coin that I am selling that is right in front of them. But again, its all a negotiation I guess.. I have been around to many dealers in my early days that lived by the greysheet as gospel. Only thing is there price would go down from GS when I am selling and go up when I am buying. LOL.. Perhaps I need to learn to be a better negotiator..

How do you convince someone that the coin your selling them is a 66?

BlindedByEgo · August 29, 2018 8:43PM

I don't think that the art of buying/ selling coins relies on "convincing". If I'm buying a coin as a reseller, I'm looking to maximize my take and minimize my downside... If I'm offered a coin that I believe has a good shot at 66, but may come back 65, I've got to calculate that into my offer. You aren't going to "convince" me - only PCGS (and later, possibly CAC) can do so.

Coin Finder · August 29, 2018 8:53PM

Excellent comments by the way from all..

Bear with me a moment....When the coin people put the number in the GS publication at $525, arrow down next to a 1925 P 66 buff nickle raw.... They cannot see all raw ms 66 Buff nickels so its really a calculated guess isn't it? Based on the calculated guess that was there before and so on...

Coinstartled · August 29, 2018 9:10PM

Use auction archives if real money is on the line.

thefinn · August 29, 2018 9:22PM

@BlindedByEgo said:
I don't think that the art of buying/ selling coins relies on "convincing". If I'm buying a coin as a reseller, I'm looking to maximize my take and minimize my downside... If I'm offered a coin that I believe has a good shot at 66, but may come back 65, I've got to calculate that into my offer. You aren't going to "convince" me - only PCGS (and later, possibly CAC) can do so.

For me, only the COIN can "convince" me.

BlindedByEgo · August 29, 2018 9:33PM

@thefinn said:

@BlindedByEgo said:
I don't think that the art of buying/ selling coins relies on "convincing". If I'm buying a coin as a reseller, I'm looking to maximize my take and minimize my downside... If I'm offered a coin that I believe has a good shot at 66, but may come back 65, I've got to calculate that into my offer. You aren't going to "convince" me - only PCGS (and later, possibly CAC) can do so.

For me, only the COIN can "convince" me.

The coin itself can scream "66" to me all night and day, but if the TPG/ CAC are silent, the market hears crickets. Keep in mind that I'm not a purist collector - I like coins a lot but have an aversion to losing money on 'em.

bigjpst · August 29, 2018 10:04PM

The prices in the sheet are supposed to reflect either a bid price posted on the CDN exchange or auction results/private sales the publishers may be privy to in absense a bid. The prices in the Greysheet could be raw or graded coins. The key words I seem to remember are accurately graded coins in a sight seen type of transaction.
So your auction results may make a resulting move in the sheet, but the Greysheet is supposed to be a wholesale price guide so if there are wholesale bids auction prices may be considered retail and make no difference.
Up to the publishers.
That’s how I understand it anyway.

If the auction results are consistently higher than posted bids then the dealers need to increase the bid price if they want anyone to sell to them.(in theory) so auction results may have an indirect affect on the price movements even if they don’t immediately change.

Coin Finder · August 29, 2018 10:11PM

Who is on the CDN exchange? Are they pro graders?

topstuf · August 30, 2018 8:24AM

I know they USED TO monitor the teletype.

I put out a buy of paying "ask" for ONE EACH capped bust half dime, dime, and quarter. In XF ...only.
ONE of each.
Next grey sheet came out with only THAT grade raised to "bid" with the old ask price.

JohnF · August 30, 2018 8:28AM

We monitor all the price and market sources possible. There is no set formula for how we derive prices. I find that 30+ years of experience buying and selling coins means there are a lot of factors involved when trying to set a single value to represent pricing. As we always say, use as many pricing sources as you can when evaluating coins. At CDN we have a wide subscriber base so a lot of folks refer to our levels when pricing. But you are wise to use PCGS guide, APR data, etc. as well.

jmlanzaf · August 30, 2018 9:13AM

@thebigeng said:
Who is on the CDN exchange? Are they pro graders?

CDN Exchange is John Albanese and friends. It is not graders, it is dealers.

TwoSides2aCoin · August 30, 2018 9:34AM

Good guide. It helps to keep my pencil sharp.

thefinn · August 30, 2018 1:21PM

@BlindedByEgo said:

@thefinn said:

@BlindedByEgo said:
I don't think that the art of buying/ selling coins relies on "convincing". If I'm buying a coin as a reseller, I'm looking to maximize my take and minimize my downside... If I'm offered a coin that I believe has a good shot at 66, but may come back 65, I've got to calculate that into my offer. You aren't going to "convince" me - only PCGS (and later, possibly CAC) can do so.

For me, only the COIN can "convince" me.

The coin itself can scream "66" to me all night and day, but if the TPG/ CAC are silent, the market hears crickets. Keep in mind that I'm not a purist collector - I like coins a lot but have an aversion to losing money on 'em.

I agree. You can call it a 66, but I might only believe 65 shot 66. You want 66 money, it's got to be in plastic.

Unknown · August 30, 2018 4:31PM

This content has been removed.

1630Boston · August 30, 2018 4:32PM

@Elemint said:
I use Numismedia FMV primarily and Coin World as a second. Subtract 33% to get approx grey sheet values.
Add 18% for CAC green and next grade up for CAC gold. Works well for me and it's free.

Oh, I don't pay attention the blue sheet.

Interesting theory, thanks for sharing it here

bigjpst · August 30, 2018 9:37PM

@thebigeng said:
Who is on the CDN exchange? Are they pro graders?

CDN exchange formerly Coinplex. Similar to CCE. Dealer network.

You don’t need two professional graders to come to an agreement between two parties. If you think it’s 65 and I think it’s 64 we have no agreement. If we both agree it is a 65 then we can move forward with a transaction. Accurately graded can mean that is in a holder PCGS etc or that both parties agree on the grade.

bigjpst · August 30, 2018 9:41PM

@jmlanzaf said:

@thebigeng said:
Who is on the CDN exchange? Are they pro graders?

CDN Exchange is John Albanese and friends. It is not graders, it is dealers.

John Albanese does post bids there but there are many other dealers from big names to vest pockets on there. I was a member for a year or so and I’m a nobody.
Bought and sold a few nice coins there. Only reason I ended my subscription was because I wasn’t seeing enough return for the expense. Small fish big pond.

jmlanzaf · August 30, 2018 11:44PM

@bigjpst said:

@jmlanzaf said:

@thebigeng said:
Who is on the CDN exchange? Are they pro graders?

CDN Exchange is John Albanese and friends. It is not graders, it is dealers.

John Albanese does post bids there but there are many other dealers from big names to vest pockets on there. I was a member for a year or so and I’m a nobody.
Bought and sold a few nice coins there. Only reason I ended my subscription was because I wasn’t seeing enough return for the expense. Small fish big pond.

Yes, isn't that exactly what I said? I was also a member. I may still be because I can't seem to get them to cancel my account.

Coin Finder · August 30, 2018 11:50PM

So you have to pay to play ...so to speak? How much is it a year?

bigjpst · August 31, 2018 6:27AM

@jmlanzaf said:

@bigjpst said:

@jmlanzaf said:

@thebigeng said:
Who is on the CDN exchange? Are they pro graders?

CDN Exchange is John Albanese and friends. It is not graders, it is dealers.

John Albanese does post bids there but there are many other dealers from big names to vest pockets on there. I was a member for a year or so and I’m a nobody.
Bought and sold a few nice coins there. Only reason I ended my subscription was because I wasn’t seeing enough return for the expense. Small fish big pond.

Yes, isn't that exactly what I said? I was also a member. I may still be because I can't seem to get them to cancel my account.

Sorry I took the JA and friends comment to mean that it was big name dealers only. My mistake.

They must like you more than they did me. They had no problem cancelling my subscription when I called.

jmlanzaf · August 31, 2018 8:16AM

@bigjpst said:

@jmlanzaf said:

@bigjpst said:

@jmlanzaf said:

@thebigeng said:
Who is on the CDN exchange? Are they pro graders?

CDN Exchange is John Albanese and friends. It is not graders, it is dealers.

John Albanese does post bids there but there are many other dealers from big names to vest pockets on there. I was a member for a year or so and I’m a nobody.
Bought and sold a few nice coins there. Only reason I ended my subscription was because I wasn’t seeing enough return for the expense. Small fish big pond.

Yes, isn't that exactly what I said? I was also a member. I may still be because I can't seem to get them to cancel my account.

Sorry I took the JA and friends comment to mean that it was big name dealers only. My mistake.

They must like you more than they did me. They had no problem cancelling my subscription when I called.

Oh, sorry. I more meant it was owned/operated by JA and friends. I see the confusion.

Actually, I had a hard time getting any attention which is why I told them to cancel. And yet, I can still log in and I get the email blasts.

I signed up. They immediately gave me an account. They told me they would call me on Monday (this was a Friday) to go through some things. A week went by, no contact. I sent an email. Nothing. I sent another email. I got an apology for not getting back to me with a promise to call me "soon". Two weeks later, I sent an email asking them to remove me. I never even got a confirmation that they were going to cancel my account. They've never billed me. Nothing.

It's a great site for CAC dollars. That's about it as far as I could tell.

NebuchadnezzarTheGreat · August 31, 2018 1:57PM

@thebigeng said:
Great info thanks... So lets take a 1925 pcgs buffalo nickle in ms66 CAC...
Sheet has a non CAC at $525 with a red down arrow. Lastest monthly.
I say non CAC becasue there is no column for CAC in that category.....Yet. I know its coming.
I just saw two of this same coin and grade go off at Great Collections.

https://greatcollections.com/Coin/605468/1925-Buffalo-Nickel-PCGS-MS-66-CAC

https://www.greatcollections.com/Coin/601489/1925-Buffalo-Nickel-PCGS-MS-66-CAC-OGH

So will the next greysheet reflect this increase? I do have selfish reasons as I own a 1925 PCGS ms66 CAC coin that is as nice as these...

John is too much of a politician to say this, but CDN would not report this price realization as Great Collections does not provide their auction results publicly. But, they do record everything that is published in regular numismatic publications (CCE, PCGS, etc).

Unknown · August 31, 2018 6:13PM

This content has been removed.

BlindedByEgo · September 2, 2018 8:57PM

Fascinating thread. Seems to all boil down to an agreement between two parties on grade and value, with a starting point of gathering prior sales information from as many sources as possible. The process may be complicated by time, distance, third parties working on behalf of buyer or seller, etc., but no individual pricing guide is the "final arbiter".

JohnF · September 3, 2018 11:29AM

@jmlanzaf said:

@bigjpst said:

@jmlanzaf said:

@bigjpst said:

@jmlanzaf said:

@thebigeng said:
Who is on the CDN exchange? Are they pro graders?

CDN Exchange is John Albanese and friends. It is not graders, it is dealers.

John Albanese does post bids there but there are many other dealers from big names to vest pockets on there. I was a member for a year or so and I’m a nobody.
Bought and sold a few nice coins there. Only reason I ended my subscription was because I wasn’t seeing enough return for the expense. Small fish big pond.

Yes, isn't that exactly what I said? I was also a member. I may still be because I can't seem to get them to cancel my account.

Sorry I took the JA and friends comment to mean that it was big name dealers only. My mistake.

They must like you more than they did me. They had no problem cancelling my subscription when I called.

Oh, sorry. I more meant it was owned/operated by JA and friends. I see the confusion.

Actually, I had a hard time getting any attention which is why I told them to cancel. And yet, I can still log in and I get the email blasts.

I signed up. They immediately gave me an account. They told me they would call me on Monday (this was a Friday) to go through some things. A week went by, no contact. I sent an email. Nothing. I sent another email. I got an apology for not getting back to me with a promise to call me "soon". Two weeks later, I sent an email asking them to remove me. I never even got a confirmation that they were going to cancel my account. They've never billed me. Nothing.

It's a great site for CAC dollars. That's about it as far as I could tell.

Clearly, this doesn't make sense and we will look into this asap. I'm sorry you fell through the crack on customer service. Not acceptable on our part.

JohnF · September 3, 2018 11:31AM

@thebigeng said:
The new monthly Greysheet is really nice and packed with info. For small dealers like me, once a month pricing works fine.

Who are the people that actually decide weather a coin goes up or goes down or stays the same price. Is it all auction results or is there more to it?

We write and discuss this regularly and also on our podcasts. This video is a good place to start.

I have always wondered....Greysheet question

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