If I was the type who spends $40k on a coin, this one would certainly get an in-hand evaluation. It would be silly to dismiss it altogether just because of the holder/seller.
@afford said:
This is a senseless coin, a senseless photo in a typical senseless holder, ICG. There is a reason for all these dots to line up.> @Insider2 said:
@logger7 said: "...ICG only gets around $50 in grading fees for something like that right? What's in it for them to stick their neck out to assign a market grade like that? And they could be leaving themselves open for monetary claims if leading ANA numismatists were to examine it and say it is not Unc. and the buyer deserves to be compensated."
I work for ICG. I don't recall grading this coin. Additionally, I just looked up the value for a MS example. Wow!
I assure you all that this was carefully graded. I have seen MS coins from the top two services that were not even close to this one. The problem with expensive coins is that they are graded differently from common ones. IMO, that's wrong but that's the way it is. IMO, this coin will end up in someone's MS folder.
As for this nonsense: "if leading ANA numismatists were to examine it and say it is not Unc," It shows no understanding of any TPGS. **What anyone (leading numismatists or other TPGS) thinks of this coin or its grade is immaterial. When you read the slab label from ANY TPGS, remember this: **"In the opinion of (insert TPGS name) the coin grades (insert the grade). As long as a mechanical error or blatant fraud did not take place, you are out of luck! REMEMBER THAT and learn to grade for yourself. Then buy the coin and not the label.
TOTAL COP OUT ANSWER. Incredible coming from Mr Opine! So tell me MR opine how does ICG compare to PCGS and even to NGC. This I got to hear.
I'll put ICG's grading opinion, cost, turnaround time and customer service up against any TPGS. We slab NGC and PCGS coins all the time, usually at the exact same grade. Furthermore, I think the top four services do a good job overall. I also teach that we can find under graded, over graded, and correctly graded coins in each company's slab. I guess you agree with the grossly OVERGRADED ULTRA RARITIES graded by the TPGS's you love so much!
If you cannot understand plain English delivered in a simple straight forward manner (that means it is not a total cop out) I cannot help you. I see a change of color on the hair over the ear. If I were "on" the coin at ICG (I have no idea what it is worth UNLESS I look) I would have sent it to the next grader as MS-62 and in the notes I would have added "with rub."
You see, **I learned to grade when "no trace of wear" was the rule. Since the guys know that; and know that I have no clue about the value of MOST coins I grade, what the finalizer sees is MY PERSONAL AU-58 (the w/rub) but based on what I have seen while grading at NGC and examining coins in slabs from the top two services I believe the coin is "UNC Enough" = MS-62.
I guess you need to read the grading guides and talk to professional graders/dealers who are paid for their opinion WHILE ACTUALLY HOLDING A COIN IN IDEAL CONDITIONS. I should have expected you to know that coins with "rub" have been BOUGHT, SOLD, AND GRADED BY PROFESSIONALS for decades.
I don't put values on the coins I examine - I can't. My job is to authenticate/grade a coin as I see it AND find any problems you and more experienced folks usually miss! I don't cop out to anyone - ever. Er...except my wife.
Interesting coins can be found in many places and different TPG holders and even raw. So let's dismiss ownership and TPG and look at the coin. There is a chance this coin may exhibit some cartwheel lustre that is simply not captured in the images. There is just enough evidence in these images to suggest this possibility. It may not be as dull as some think. And if there is some compelling lustre, an MS grade is possible.
Grading this coin from an image is just not going to satisfy the critics.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
@RogerB said:
RE: "The problem with expensive coins is that they are graded differently from common ones. IMO, that's wrong but that's the way it is. "
No. It is simply wrong.
;0
I agree. However, I'm able to separate the two SIMPLE concepts. While you and I agree it is wrong, it is being done.
...and it is wrong, and everyone in the "hobby" has a responsibility to object, and insist that the "wrong" be changed to "right." Sticking one's head in the sand and claiming "that's the way it is" only further perverts the hobby and drives off new interest.
One can encourage positive change or remain a "pervert."
@Insider2 said:
I stopped beating my head against the wall years ago. So now, I prefer to know the difference yet choose to join the 99% of perverted numismatists.
If collectors, dealers, and experts had taken a stand against changing or differential grading standards in the early to mid 90s, the hobby would probably be in far better shape.
@Insider2 said:
I stopped beating my head against the wall years ago. So now, I prefer to know the difference yet choose to join the 99% of perverted numismatists.
If collectors, dealers, and experts had taken a stand against changing or differential grading standards in the early to mid 90s, the hobby would probably be in far better shape.
News Flash: Dealers forced the major TPGS to change the standards (Roll eyes, way before the mid 90's) and there was nothing collectors and experts could have done about it.
@Insider2 said:
I stopped beating my head against the wall years ago. So now, I prefer to know the difference yet choose to join the 99% of perverted numismatists.
If collectors, dealers, and experts had taken a stand against changing or differential grading standards in the early to mid 90s, the hobby would probably be in far better shape.
News Flash: Dealers forced the major TPGS to change the standards (Roll eyes, way before the mid 90's) and there was nothing collectors and experts could have done about it.
There are too many variables to know for certain, but I see the services having the upper hand as collectors/the market would increasing demand the security/stability offered by the services' guarantees. Rather than being "forced," I see it more as a gradual corrupt bargain that rewarded large dealerships (a small percentage of dealers) who could readily keep up with the latest grading trends and the services which amassed millions of dollars in revenue from constant resubmissions.
"Dealers" did not force anything. The TPGs willingly "bastardized" grading to boost profits. "Grade inflation" is the same thing, as are "special labels," "specimen coins," and other ignorant drivel. If no one objects -- and I refer to collectors -- and demands change, the situation will only get worse. Eventually the unstable structure will collapse - just like a Ponzi scheme.
@RogerB said:
"Dealers" did not force anything. The TPGs willingly "bastardized" grading to boost profits. "Grade inflation" is the same thing, as are "special labels," "specimen coins," and other ignorant drivel. If no one objects -- and I refer to collectors -- and demands change, the situation will only get worse. Eventually the unstable structure will collapse - just like a Ponzi scheme.
Oh my, were you working in a grading room someplace?
I was. "Gradeflation" has nothing to do with special labels and specimens. It has to do with the "light bill" and keeping major dealers happy. It has been explained that grading was "evolving" as more was being learned. I guess we can agree that the "light bill" and profits is the same thing.
@RogerB said:
"Dealers" did not force anything. The TPGs willingly "bastardized" grading to boost profits. "Grade inflation" is the same thing, as are "special labels," "specimen coins," and other ignorant drivel. If no one objects -- and I refer to collectors -- and demands change, the situation will only get worse. Eventually the unstable structure will collapse - just like a Ponzi scheme.
THIS!
And the fact that Insider denies this is telling.
I guess you were in a grading room someplace also.
@RogerB said:
"Dealers" did not force anything. The TPGs willingly "bastardized" grading to boost profits. "Grade inflation" is the same thing, as are "special labels," "specimen coins," and other ignorant drivel. If no one objects -- and I refer to collectors -- and demands change, the situation will only get worse. Eventually the unstable structure will collapse - just like a Ponzi scheme.
Oh my, were you working in a grading room someplace?
I was. "Gradeflation" has nothing to do with special labels and specimens. It has to do with the "light bill" and keeping major dealers happy. It has been explained that grading was "evolving" as more was being learned. I guess we can agree that the "light bill" and profits is the same thing.
It is all part of the same degradation that will eventually consume the hobby - as it has already begin to do.
@afford said:
This is a senseless coin, a senseless photo in a typical senseless holder, ICG. There is a reason for all these dots to line up.> @Insider2 said:
@logger7 said: "...ICG only gets around $50 in grading fees for something like that right? What's in it for them to stick their neck out to assign a market grade like that? And they could be leaving themselves open for monetary claims if leading ANA numismatists were to examine it and say it is not Unc. and the buyer deserves to be compensated."
I work for ICG. I don't recall grading this coin. Additionally, I just looked up the value for a MS example. Wow!
I assure you all that this was carefully graded. I have seen MS coins from the top two services that were not even close to this one. The problem with expensive coins is that they are graded differently from common ones. IMO, that's wrong but that's the way it is. IMO, this coin will end up in someone's MS folder.
As for this nonsense: "if leading ANA numismatists were to examine it and say it is not Unc," It shows no understanding of any TPGS. **What anyone (leading numismatists or other TPGS) thinks of this coin or its grade is immaterial. When you read the slab label from ANY TPGS, remember this: **"In the opinion of (insert TPGS name) the coin grades (insert the grade). As long as a mechanical error or blatant fraud did not take place, you are out of luck! REMEMBER THAT and learn to grade for yourself. Then buy the coin and not the label.
Total cop out answer. Incredible coming from Mr Opine! So tell me MR opine how does ICG compare to PCGS and even to NGC. This I got to hear.
I have seen and bought many great coins in ICG holders, NGC holders and ANACS holders.
I have seen (and bought) "sleeper" coins that were housed in holders that many would sneer at...."third-and fourth tier" outfits even.
And...
I've seen dogs in PCGS and NGC holders as well.
It's all good if you can look past the opinion on the holder regardless of the company and make your own decision.
@RogerB said:
"Dealers" did not force anything. The TPGs willingly "bastardized" grading to boost profits. "Grade inflation" is the same thing, as are "special labels," "specimen coins," and other ignorant drivel. If no one objects -- and I refer to collectors -- and demands change, the situation will only get worse. Eventually the unstable structure will collapse - just like a Ponzi scheme.
Oh my, were you working in a grading room someplace?
I was. "Gradeflation" has nothing to do with special labels and specimens. It has to do with the "light bill" and keeping major dealers happy. It has been explained that grading was "evolving" as more was being learned. I guess we can agree that the "light bill" and profits is the same thing.
It is not evolving because of new knowledge for the most part. It is greed. I don't understand why that is so hard to understand. For the record, I don't care the reason why it occurred. It isn't right and is why so many no longer trust the major grading services and why many are artificially using CAC as bandaid.
@RogerB said:
"Dealers" did not force anything. The TPGs willingly "bastardized" grading to boost profits. "Grade inflation" is the same thing, as are "special labels," "specimen coins," and other ignorant drivel. If no one objects -- and I refer to collectors -- and demands change, the situation will only get worse. Eventually the unstable structure will collapse - just like a Ponzi scheme.
Oh my, were you working in a grading room someplace?
I was. "Gradeflation" has nothing to do with special labels and specimens. It has to do with the "light bill" and keeping major dealers happy. It has been explained that grading was "evolving" as more was being learned. I guess we can agree that the "light bill" and profits is the same thing.
It is all part of the same degradation that will eventually consume the hobby - as it has already begin to do.
It has been happening for decades and the hobby is still around and it continues to happen. Wait until the decimals and 100 point system kicks in!
@afford said:
This is a senseless coin, a senseless photo in a typical senseless holder, ICG. There is a reason for all these dots to line up.> @Insider2 said:
@logger7 said: "...ICG only gets around $50 in grading fees for something like that right? What's in it for them to stick their neck out to assign a market grade like that? And they could be leaving themselves open for monetary claims if leading ANA numismatists were to examine it and say it is not Unc. and the buyer deserves to be compensated."
I work for ICG. I don't recall grading this coin. Additionally, I just looked up the value for a MS example. Wow!
I assure you all that this was carefully graded. I have seen MS coins from the top two services that were not even close to this one. The problem with expensive coins is that they are graded differently from common ones. IMO, that's wrong but that's the way it is. IMO, this coin will end up in someone's MS folder.
As for this nonsense: "if leading ANA numismatists were to examine it and say it is not Unc," It shows no understanding of any TPGS. **What anyone (leading numismatists or other TPGS) thinks of this coin or its grade is immaterial. When you read the slab label from ANY TPGS, remember this: **"In the opinion of (insert TPGS name) the coin grades (insert the grade). As long as a mechanical error or blatant fraud did not take place, you are out of luck! REMEMBER THAT and learn to grade for yourself. Then buy the coin and not the label.
TOTAL COP OUT ANSWER. Incredible coming from Mr Opine! So tell me MR opine how does ICG compare to PCGS and even to NGC. This I got to hear.
I'll put ICG's grading opinion, cost, turnaround time and customer service up against any TPGS. We slab NGC and PCGS coins all the time, usually at the exact same grade. Furthermore, I think the top four services do a good job overall. I also teach that we can find under graded, over graded, and correctly graded coins in each company's slab. I guess you agree with the grossly OVERGRADED ULTRA RARITIES graded by the TPGS's you love so much!
If you cannot understand plain English delivered in a simple straight forward manner (that means it is not a total cop out) I cannot help you. I see a change of color on the hair over the ear. If I were "on" the coin at ICG (I have no idea what it is worth UNLESS I look) I would have sent it to the next grader as MS-62 and in the notes I would have added "with rub."
You see, **I learned to grade when "no trace of wear" was the rule. Since the guys know that; and know that I have no clue about the value of MOST coins I grade, what the finalizer sees is MY PERSONAL AU-58 (the w/rub) but based on what I have seen while grading at NGC and examining coins in slabs from the top two services I believe the coin is "UNC Enough" = MS-62.
I guess you need to read the grading guides and talk to professional graders/dealers who are paid for their opinion WHILE ACTUALLY HOLDING A COIN IN IDEAL CONDITIONS. I should have expected you to know that coins with "rub" have been BOUGHT, SOLD, AND GRADED BY PROFESSIONALS for decades.
I don't put values on the coins I examine - I can't. My job is to authenticate/grade a coin as I see it AND find any problems you and more experienced folks usually miss! I don't cop out to anyone - ever. Er...except my wife.
I buy the coin and not the holder but every time I see a coin in a new ICG holder I become very wary and close to avoidance.
Great advice! I check out EVERY coin in EVERY TPGS slab - CAC or not.
Comments
If I was the type who spends $40k on a coin, this one would certainly get an in-hand evaluation. It would be silly to dismiss it altogether just because of the holder/seller.
Collector, occasional seller
I'll put ICG's grading opinion, cost, turnaround time and customer service up against any TPGS. We slab NGC and PCGS coins all the time, usually at the exact same grade. Furthermore, I think the top four services do a good job overall. I also teach that we can find under graded, over graded, and correctly graded coins in each company's slab. I guess you agree with the grossly OVERGRADED ULTRA RARITIES graded by the TPGS's you love so much!
If you cannot understand plain English delivered in a simple straight forward manner (that means it is not a total cop out) I cannot help you. I see a change of color on the hair over the ear. If I were "on" the coin at ICG (I have no idea what it is worth UNLESS I look) I would have sent it to the next grader as MS-62 and in the notes I would have added "with rub."
You see, **I learned to grade when "no trace of wear" was the rule. Since the guys know that; and know that I have no clue about the value of MOST coins I grade, what the finalizer sees is MY PERSONAL AU-58 (the w/rub) but based on what I have seen while grading at NGC and examining coins in slabs from the top two services I believe the coin is "UNC Enough" = MS-62.
I guess you need to read the grading guides and talk to professional graders/dealers who are paid for their opinion WHILE ACTUALLY HOLDING A COIN IN IDEAL CONDITIONS. I should have expected you to know that coins with "rub" have been BOUGHT, SOLD, AND GRADED BY PROFESSIONALS for decades.
I don't put values on the coins I examine - I can't. My job is to authenticate/grade a coin as I see it AND find any problems you and more experienced folks usually miss! I don't cop out to anyone - ever. Er...except my wife.
.
And awful photos at that.
RE: "The problem with expensive coins is that they are graded differently from common ones. IMO, that's wrong but that's the way it is. "
No. It is simply wrong.
;0
Interesting coins can be found in many places and different TPG holders and even raw. So let's dismiss ownership and TPG and look at the coin. There is a chance this coin may exhibit some cartwheel lustre that is simply not captured in the images. There is just enough evidence in these images to suggest this possibility. It may not be as dull as some think. And if there is some compelling lustre, an MS grade is possible.
Grading this coin from an image is just not going to satisfy the critics.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
I agree. However, I'm able to separate the two SIMPLE concepts. While you and I agree it is wrong, it is being done.
Simple.
...and it is wrong, and everyone in the "hobby" has a responsibility to object, and insist that the "wrong" be changed to "right." Sticking one's head in the sand and claiming "that's the way it is" only further perverts the hobby and drives off new interest.
One can encourage positive change or remain a "pervert."
I stopped beating my head against the wall years ago. So now, I prefer to know the difference yet choose to join the 99% of perverted numismatists.
If collectors, dealers, and experts had taken a stand against changing or differential grading standards in the early to mid 90s, the hobby would probably be in far better shape.
News Flash: Dealers forced the major TPGS to change the standards (Roll eyes, way before the mid 90's) and there was nothing collectors and experts could have done about it.
There are too many variables to know for certain, but I see the services having the upper hand as collectors/the market would increasing demand the security/stability offered by the services' guarantees. Rather than being "forced," I see it more as a gradual corrupt bargain that rewarded large dealerships (a small percentage of dealers) who could readily keep up with the latest grading trends and the services which amassed millions of dollars in revenue from constant resubmissions.
"Dealers" did not force anything. The TPGs willingly "bastardized" grading to boost profits. "Grade inflation" is the same thing, as are "special labels," "specimen coins," and other ignorant drivel. If no one objects -- and I refer to collectors -- and demands change, the situation will only get worse. Eventually the unstable structure will collapse - just like a Ponzi scheme.
Oh my, were you working in a grading room someplace?
I was. "Gradeflation" has nothing to do with special labels and specimens. It has to do with the "light bill" and keeping major dealers happy. It has been explained that grading was "evolving" as more was being learned. I guess we can agree that the "light bill" and profits is the same thing.
I guess you were in a grading room someplace also.
It is all part of the same degradation that will eventually consume the hobby - as it has already begin to do.
I have seen and bought many great coins in ICG holders, NGC holders and ANACS holders.
I have seen (and bought) "sleeper" coins that were housed in holders that many would sneer at...."third-and fourth tier" outfits even.
And...
I've seen dogs in PCGS and NGC holders as well.
It's all good if you can look past the opinion on the holder regardless of the company and make your own decision.
It is not evolving because of new knowledge for the most part. It is greed. I don't understand why that is so hard to understand. For the record, I don't care the reason why it occurred. It isn't right and is why so many no longer trust the major grading services and why many are artificially using CAC as bandaid.
I wasn't blaming you at all. I recognized the photos as Centsles photos the moment I opened the thread.
It has been happening for decades and the hobby is still around and it continues to happen. Wait until the decimals and 100 point system kicks in!
Great advice! I check out EVERY coin in EVERY TPGS slab - CAC or not.
@cameonut2011 said: "It is not evolving because of new knowledge for the most part."
I agree. That is one of the EXCUSES used to get away with it.
I was going to go with AU58... I still see rub over the ear, and I can't decide on the center of the eagle.
The ICG people obviously had the coin in hand, and put 62 on it. If I'm paying 62 money, I'd want one with better eye appeal.
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