@Mark said:
I sort of feel like I just entered the twilight zone...
Oh no! You broke his string of replies at 9 in a row. I was waiting for 10. Wonder what the record might be on a coin discussion.
As far as the holder as shown on the first page by @astrorat , something about it does seem familiar from long ago. Maybe even saw them in the 1980's, but I don't recall for certain and have no documentation.
Even if originally from the 80's, that doesn't mean imitations could not be made more recently.
Would these appear in the book on slabs done years ago by former member Conder101?
"To Be Esteemed Be Useful" - 1792 Birch Cent --- "I personally think we developed language because of our deep need to complain." - Lily Tomlin
@WinLoseWin Yeah, you are right--I blew it. Darn! More seriously, I checked Conder101's book and can verify that these USNAF slab were not noted (or, alternatively, I missed them). And Conder01 was extremely meticulous. I wish he'd update his book...
How come you seem to be the only one who has seen more than 1 or two of them?
Personally, I could care a less. To me, these coins are worth no more than they would be raw. I don't collect 2nd rate slabs for the sake of having "history". Too much bad history.
The two of you jumping up and down and yelling at each other is not going to convince anyone of anything. And you, in particular, have supplied zero facts other than protestations that you are being treated unfairly. Perhaps, perhaps not.
@illini420 said:
Just to clarify, the 1881-S Morgan Dollar that I bought/sold in the USNAF Slab was purchased by me several years ago from a long-time Southern California coin dealer who has been in the business for 40+ years. He put the coin in one of our local coin club auctions where I purchased it because I thought it was a neat piece of coin grading history and I also thought the coin was pretty nice too.
Not sure about any of the recent slabs and the samples that have popped up, but for what it's worth I'm 100% sure that the slab I sold was not put together in the last few years.
Sadly it was. Its not just me this guy admitted to building the sets himself its others. He is being removed from coin groups on Facebook as he is ranting and raving has gotten others to realize he has told conflicting stories.
@Lspscoins said:
Glad to hear from you! I did!! I just got the email bounced back today and it said failed to deliver. Not sure why but I sent you a new message immediately. I now assume that hasn't reached you either. It did include my phone number for us to communicate. Here it is
6824077572
Please be in touch
You have to reply to messages via the forum (or ask for the email of someone you are trying to speak with).
You most likely replied to the email alerting you that there is a message (those are sent by the forum software and would not get to the intended person).
And no one else is commenting because there isn't much to add to the discussion.
At this point all we have is two random people bickering back and forth. One is claiming that the holders are fake (with faulty/no evidence) and one is saying they are real but hindering their case with the multiple vague replies.
@Lspscoins said:
Why are they being removed from eBay? I have sold 2 there just look at the prices and I have even better ones to list! No matter what these are why is eBay pulling them down? Maybe because of this fraud alert? I am new to eBay.....
With ebay, if an item is taken down once due to a violation, then their program may keep checking your account. Also, some people might be reporting it multiple times (if there are enough reports, then it will also be automatically taken down). I've had random holders removed before too (like ACG & PCI). Often there is little that can be done.
Technically, as long as you don't mention the grade on your slab in the title/description and cover the part that shows the grade in the picture, you should be fine. However, ebay isn't always consistent in how it monitors listings.
@Lspscoins said:
Not sure what I can do to provide more than the "mutiple vague replies"? What can I tell you that I have not told you or anyone else already?
At this point, your best course of action is to stop fighting with the other member. It's likely best to completely avoid mentioning them in your posts.
As long as your story is factual, stick to the simple responses (i.e. you know of 40 of these, they came from Oklahoma, they look like ___, they include coins like ___, etc...).
Also, reply to people like Conder & astrorat & BStrauss3 as those are some of the leading authorities on slabs.
@Lspscoins said:
1) Found in a garage in Edmond Oklahoma. 2) Just over 40 discovered. 3) I have no idea why I am the only one with them
Just a question and maybe it is just me but since he is making allegations of fraud why am I being asked for proof? Isn't the burden of proof on him?
The burden of proof should be on him - if it were a court or law. It is not. For those of us who are simply listening, we simply want to know what the numismatic truth is.
Personally, I don't think eBay should be shutting down those auctions. The fact is: they are real coins in "real holders". The only question is whether the date on the holders is accurate. Caveat emptor.
@Lspscoins said:
Why are they being removed from eBay? I have sold 2 there just look at the prices and I have even better ones to list! No matter what these are why is eBay pulling them down? Maybe because of this fraud alert? I am new to eBay.....
eBay would suspend you if they thought it was a fraud issue. They also should not be pulling the auctions on simple accusations. They have people who investigate and decide if complaints have merit. I doubt SOB has enough pull to single handedly do it.
@Lspscoins said:
Why are they being removed from eBay? I have sold 2 there just look at the prices and I have even better ones to list! No matter what these are why is eBay pulling them down? Maybe because of this fraud alert? I am new to eBay.....
With ebay, if an item is taken down once due to a violation, then their program may keep checking your account. Also, some people might be reporting it multiple times (if there are enough reports, then it will also be automatically taken down). I've had random holders removed before too (like ACG & PCI). Often there is little that can be done.
Technically, as long as you don't mention the grade on your slab in the title/description and cover the part that shows the grade in the picture, you should be fine. However, ebay isn't always consistent in how it monitors listings.
This is what is happening clearly. It is being reported by Sheldon and his cronnies! No doubt about it. Clear case of bullying based solely on speculation. I will be going after Sheldon. He is attempting to discredit a legitimate listing and so far he is being successful!
Extremely unjust!
See my second reply after the ebay part. I don't think fighting him will be a winning proposition. You'll both go through a ton of effort and in the end come out with little to show for it. A much easier approach would be to work out whatever differences there are calmly.
@Lspscoins said:
Why are they being removed from eBay? I have sold 2 there just look at the prices and I have even better ones to list! No matter what these are why is eBay pulling them down? Maybe because of this fraud alert? I am new to eBay.....
eBay would suspend you if they thought it was a fraud issue. They also should not be pulling the auctions on simple accusations. They have people who investigate and decide if complaints have merit. I doubt SOB has enough pull to single handedly do it.
If enough people hit the report button, ebay will automatically remove it (most of the time it's just programmed into the software and no physical person is looking into the matter).
I wish one of the old-timers had more information on these. Where's @insider2 when you need him?
I haven't seen these particular slabs before, but I've seen other similar private issues, especially in that time frame when investment scams with collectibles were all the rage.
@Lspscoins said:
I am going to see an attorney about legal actions. I will sue someone over this. Unfounded accusations that harm my reputation and cause loss of finance from the removal of my auctions is way out of line! And pretty certain also illegal...
We shall see
If an attorney takes the case, there will only be one winner-and it won't be you. I'm not being mean either, that's just the truth in a matter like this. Plus, whatever happened on facebook (even if you were messing around about providing slabs for new coins) will not help your case.
You said you are new to ebay so I assume at least part of the problem could be that you are unintentionally violating their rules for listing (slabbed) coins. They have some very specific rules on what you can or can not say. Why don't you take a break from posting here and call Ebay customer service to ask them?
@Lspscoins said:
I am going to see an attorney about legal actions. I will sue someone over this. Unfounded accusations that harm my reputation and cause loss of finance from the removal of my auctions is way out of line! And pretty certain also illegal...
We shall see
If an attorney takes the case, there will only be one winner-and it won't be you. I'm not being mean either, that's just the truth in a matter like this. Plus, whatever happened on facebook (even if you were messing around about providing slabs for new coins) will not help your case.
?????What????
Providing slabs for new coins? I don't think so! And in a court of law he will need his so called "proof" which he can't produce!
There was some facebook conversation and no one knows what was said by either party. Someone (or both of you) are not telling the entire truth. Until that is resolved, there will be some doubt over the holders.
@Sheldon_Overton_Baby where is the evidence of the guy agreeing to make these slabs for your coins? And where is the evidence of you turning that info over to inspectors? And just saying that you did it does not constitute proof.
At this point, I'm still convinced that all of this is some elaborate ploy and like an earlier poster mentioned, we may have accidentally entered the Twilight Zone.
@U1chicago said: @Sheldon_Overton_Baby where is the evidence of the guy agreeing to make these slabs for your coins? And where is the evidence of you turning that info over to inspectors? And just saying that you did it does not constitute proof.
At this point, I'm still convinced that all of this is some elaborate ploy and like an earlier poster mentioned, we may have accidentally entered the Twilight Zone.
As noted in the long CoinCommunity forum the guy at first didn't know it was me.
So what do we KNOW for sure
1) He fell for my "sting operation" and agreed to form a deal with a dealer (played by me) to place coins inside USNAF holders.
2) He can't keep his story straight. First saying this conversation did not occur, then admitting it BUT he was just goofing around, now back to it did't happen.
3) He has used multiple Ebay accounts and Ebay had removed these BEFORE my CoinCommunity forum
4) His ranting and raving over last week on Facebook has resulted in other people noticing major differences in his stories about these USNAF sslabs and at least one in which he told a person HE was grading the coins. He has since been getting banned from many groups.
5) Now as I said in CoinCommunity Postal Inspectors didn't believe Bryan Watkisn was his real name. Now if you go back to that forum he said it was but shortly after that forum post got hot he changed his name and now goes by Garrett.
6) As I said on CoinCommunity I don't want to do something that could possibly put an investigation in trouble BUT as I said many, many times to this rat......HE is FREE to post the FULL chat log himself.
He has not done so.
So if we take 1-6 into account and you still don't see with clarity this is an elaborate fraud years in the making then nothing else I can say to you.
@U1chicago said: @Sheldon_Overton_Baby where is the evidence of the guy agreeing to make these slabs for your coins? And where is the evidence of you turning that info over to inspectors? And just saying that you did it does not constitute proof.
At this point, I'm still convinced that all of this is some elaborate ploy and like an earlier poster mentioned, we may have accidentally entered the Twilight Zone.
As noted in the long CoinCommunity forum the guy at first didn't know it was me.
So what do we KNOW for sure
1) He fell for my "sting operation" and agreed to form a deal with a dealer (played by me) to place coins inside USNAF holders.
2) He can't keep his story straight. First saying this conversation did not occur, then admitting it BUT he was just goofing around, now back to it did't happen.
3) He has used multiple Ebay accounts and Ebay had removed these BEFORE my CoinCommunity forum
4) His ranting and raving over last week on Facebook has resulted in other people noticing major differences in his stories about these USNAF sslabs and at least one in which he told a person HE was grading the coins. He has since been getting banned from many groups.
5) Now as I said in CoinCommunity Postal Inspectors didn't believe Bryan Watkisn was his real name. Now if you go back to that forum he said it was but shortly after that forum post got hot he changed his name and now goes by Garrett.
6) As I said on CoinCommunity I don't want to do something that could possibly put an investigation in trouble BUT as I said many, many times to this rat......HE is FREE to post the FULL chat log himself.
He has not done so.
So if we take 1-6 into account and you still don't see with clarity this is an elaborate fraud years in the making then nothing else I can say to you.
Sorry Sheldon I am not buying it! Not sure why your here trashing members.
@U1chicago said: @Sheldon_Overton_Baby where is the evidence of the guy agreeing to make these slabs for your coins? And where is the evidence of you turning that info over to inspectors? And just saying that you did it does not constitute proof.
At this point, I'm still convinced that all of this is some elaborate ploy and like an earlier poster mentioned, we may have accidentally entered the Twilight Zone.
As noted in the long CoinCommunity forum the guy at first didn't know it was me.
So what do we KNOW for sure
1) He fell for my "sting operation" and agreed to form a deal with a dealer (played by me) to place coins inside USNAF holders.
2) He can't keep his story straight. First saying this conversation did not occur, then admitting it BUT he was just goofing around, now back to it did't happen.
3) He has used multiple Ebay accounts and Ebay had removed these BEFORE my CoinCommunity forum
4) His ranting and raving over last week on Facebook has resulted in other people noticing major differences in his stories about these USNAF sslabs and at least one in which he told a person HE was grading the coins. He has since been getting banned from many groups.
5) Now as I said in CoinCommunity Postal Inspectors didn't believe Bryan Watkisn was his real name. Now if you go back to that forum he said it was but shortly after that forum post got hot he changed his name and now goes by Garrett.
6) As I said on CoinCommunity I don't want to do something that could possibly put an investigation in trouble BUT as I said many, many times to this rat......HE is FREE to post the FULL chat log himself.
He has not done so.
So if we take 1-6 into account and you still don't see with clarity this is an elaborate fraud years in the making then nothing else I can say to you.
Sorry Sheldon I am not buying it! Not sure why your here trashing members.
Buy up the fake holders all you want. Free country.
Exactly thank you be positive its not your money! I throw my money away on coins each day. I buy and my safe gets bigger. Thats all that is important to me. Whats in my safe.
I loose thousands in the stock market what a few hundred dollars. If it makes me happy. So be positive. I want to read positive from my fellow members. It goes much smoother. Alot of good people here. Alot of good positive people here. Good luck to you sir or miss?
@Gluggo said:
Exactly thank you be positive its not your money!
Buy them all up then. Wire the guy some money. If you get "triggered" because others call out a fraud and you wish to live in an alternative reality that is your right. Keep me out of it.
@Lspscoins said:
Not sure what I can do to provide more than the "mutiple vague replies"? What can I tell you that I have not told you or anyone else already?
The other party in this dispute (Sheldon) has claimed that you changed your ID/name/entity.
Have you changed your ID (name) on eBay or any coin forums ?
Have you used any alias on the internet or in person ?
And if so, why ?
@U1chicago said: @Sheldon_Overton_Baby where is the evidence of the guy agreeing to make these slabs for your coins? And where is the evidence of you turning that info over to inspectors? And just saying that you did it does not constitute proof.
At this point, I'm still convinced that all of this is some elaborate ploy and like an earlier poster mentioned, we may have accidentally entered the Twilight Zone.
As noted in the long CoinCommunity forum the guy at first didn't know it was me.
So what do we KNOW for sure
6) As I said on CoinCommunity I don't want to do something that could possibly put an investigation in trouble BUT as I said many, many times to this rat......HE is FREE to post the FULL chat log himself.
Just exactly how would posting chat logs imperil an investigation. They are your chat logs and you're free to do what you wish with them. How would posting the logs be worse than trashing someone with NO evidence? Absent evidence, you are committing your own set of crimes in plain view (libel, restraint of trade).
If you don't want to imperil an investigation, that's fine, then just shut up about it and let Justice take its course. You want to talk about it, we need more than "SOB says its true".
I would also suggest that even if he made the slabs, they aren't exactly "fake slabs". It may be a fake date on a "real slab". But, at the worst, it's a real coin in a real holder, graded by someone we don't know that may or may not have the correct date on it. If he really wanted to run a scam, he could buy fake PCGS slabs on Alibaba and put real (or fake) coins in THOSE which would have more market cachet than these no name slabs.
@U1chicago said: @Sheldon_Overton_Baby where is the evidence of the guy agreeing to make these slabs for your coins? And where is the evidence of you turning that info over to inspectors? And just saying that you did it does not constitute proof.
At this point, I'm still convinced that all of this is some elaborate ploy and like an earlier poster mentioned, we may have accidentally entered the Twilight Zone.
As noted in the long CoinCommunity forum the guy at first didn't know it was me.
So what do we KNOW for sure
6) As I said on CoinCommunity I don't want to do something that could possibly put an investigation in trouble BUT as I said many, many times to this rat......HE is FREE to post the FULL chat log himself.
Just exactly how would posting chat logs imperil an investigation. They are your chat logs and you're free to do what you wish with them. How would posting the logs be worse than trashing someone with NO evidence? Absent evidence, you are committing your own set of crimes in plain view (libel, restraint of trade).
If you don't want to imperil an investigation, that's fine, then just shut up about it and let Justice take its course. You want to talk about it, we need more than "SOB says its true".
I would also suggest that even if he made the slabs, they aren't exactly "fake slabs". It may be a fake date on a "real slab". But, at the worst, it's a real coin in a real holder, graded by someone we don't know that may or may not have the correct date on it. If he really wanted to run a scam, he could buy fake PCGS slabs on Alibaba and put real (or fake) coins in THOSE which would have more market cachet than these no name slabs.
jmlanzaf I will not dissagree with you cause I have come to respect you. Also with DC asking questions I think that is good. But the constant put downs by both parties, back and forth is just tiring. I said my peace yesterday and I am satisfied. I respect what you say cause I just do. I will let the rest take its course. I move on to other things in life that brings me peace. Like Dan's latest creation coming in the near future. Any new coins that I may find. Life is just to precious to worry about this stuff. So thank you for your comments and I do welcome it. Keep breaking them sets up and sharing your outcome. I actually am one that appreciates what you have to say.
@Sheldon_Overton_Baby said:
1) He fell for my "sting operation" and agreed to form a deal with a dealer (played by me) to place coins inside USNAF holders.
@Sheldon_Overton_Baby said:
1) He fell for my "sting operation" and agreed to form a deal with a dealer (played by me) to place coins inside USNAF holders.
Comments
Oh no! You broke his string of replies at 9 in a row. I was waiting for 10. Wonder what the record might be on a coin discussion.
As far as the holder as shown on the first page by @astrorat , something about it does seem familiar from long ago. Maybe even saw them in the 1980's, but I don't recall for certain and have no documentation.
Even if originally from the 80's, that doesn't mean imitations could not be made more recently.
Would these appear in the book on slabs done years ago by former member Conder101?
"To Be Esteemed Be Useful" - 1792 Birch Cent --- "I personally think we developed language because of our deep need to complain." - Lily Tomlin
@WinLoseWin Yeah, you are right--I blew it. Darn!
More seriously, I checked Conder101's book and can verify that these USNAF slab were not noted (or, alternatively, I missed them). And Conder01 was extremely meticulous. I wish he'd update his book...
Well, stop ranting and supply the facts:
Personally, I could care a less. To me, these coins are worth no more than they would be raw. I don't collect 2nd rate slabs for the sake of having "history". Too much bad history.
The two of you jumping up and down and yelling at each other is not going to convince anyone of anything. And you, in particular, have supplied zero facts other than protestations that you are being treated unfairly. Perhaps, perhaps not.
Hmmm, who shall be believed?> @Lspscoins said:
Why did you not respond to my PM?
See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
You have to reply to messages via the forum (or ask for the email of someone you are trying to speak with).
You most likely replied to the email alerting you that there is a message (those are sent by the forum software and would not get to the intended person).
And no one else is commenting because there isn't much to add to the discussion.
At this point all we have is two random people bickering back and forth. One is claiming that the holders are fake (with faulty/no evidence) and one is saying they are real but hindering their case with the multiple vague replies.
With ebay, if an item is taken down once due to a violation, then their program may keep checking your account. Also, some people might be reporting it multiple times (if there are enough reports, then it will also be automatically taken down). I've had random holders removed before too (like ACG & PCI). Often there is little that can be done.
Technically, as long as you don't mention the grade on your slab in the title/description and cover the part that shows the grade in the picture, you should be fine. However, ebay isn't always consistent in how it monitors listings.
At this point, your best course of action is to stop fighting with the other member. It's likely best to completely avoid mentioning them in your posts.
As long as your story is factual, stick to the simple responses (i.e. you know of 40 of these, they came from Oklahoma, they look like ___, they include coins like ___, etc...).
Also, reply to people like Conder & astrorat & BStrauss3 as those are some of the leading authorities on slabs.
The burden of proof should be on him - if it were a court or law. It is not. For those of us who are simply listening, we simply want to know what the numismatic truth is.
Personally, I don't think eBay should be shutting down those auctions. The fact is: they are real coins in "real holders". The only question is whether the date on the holders is accurate. Caveat emptor.
eBay would suspend you if they thought it was a fraud issue. They also should not be pulling the auctions on simple accusations. They have people who investigate and decide if complaints have merit. I doubt SOB has enough pull to single handedly do it.
See my second reply after the ebay part. I don't think fighting him will be a winning proposition. You'll both go through a ton of effort and in the end come out with little to show for it. A much easier approach would be to work out whatever differences there are calmly.
If enough people hit the report button, ebay will automatically remove it (most of the time it's just programmed into the software and no physical person is looking into the matter).
I wish one of the old-timers had more information on these. Where's @insider2 when you need him?
I haven't seen these particular slabs before, but I've seen other similar private issues, especially in that time frame when investment scams with collectibles were all the rage.
Wow that 1890 cc looks awesume. Seriously and a cc to boot! Nice
If an attorney takes the case, there will only be one winner-and it won't be you. I'm not being mean either, that's just the truth in a matter like this. Plus, whatever happened on facebook (even if you were messing around about providing slabs for new coins) will not help your case.
You said you are new to ebay so I assume at least part of the problem could be that you are unintentionally violating their rules for listing (slabbed) coins. They have some very specific rules on what you can or can not say. Why don't you take a break from posting here and call Ebay customer service to ask them?
There was some facebook conversation and no one knows what was said by either party. Someone (or both of you) are not telling the entire truth. Until that is resolved, there will be some doubt over the holders.
@Sheldon_Overton_Baby where is the evidence of the guy agreeing to make these slabs for your coins? And where is the evidence of you turning that info over to inspectors? And just saying that you did it does not constitute proof.
At this point, I'm still convinced that all of this is some elaborate ploy and like an earlier poster mentioned, we may have accidentally entered the Twilight Zone.
As noted in the long CoinCommunity forum the guy at first didn't know it was me.
So what do we KNOW for sure
1) He fell for my "sting operation" and agreed to form a deal with a dealer (played by me) to place coins inside USNAF holders.
2) He can't keep his story straight. First saying this conversation did not occur, then admitting it BUT he was just goofing around, now back to it did't happen.
3) He has used multiple Ebay accounts and Ebay had removed these BEFORE my CoinCommunity forum
4) His ranting and raving over last week on Facebook has resulted in other people noticing major differences in his stories about these USNAF sslabs and at least one in which he told a person HE was grading the coins. He has since been getting banned from many groups.
5) Now as I said in CoinCommunity Postal Inspectors didn't believe Bryan Watkisn was his real name. Now if you go back to that forum he said it was but shortly after that forum post got hot he changed his name and now goes by Garrett.
6) As I said on CoinCommunity I don't want to do something that could possibly put an investigation in trouble BUT as I said many, many times to this rat......HE is FREE to post the FULL chat log himself.
He has not done so.
So if we take 1-6 into account and you still don't see with clarity this is an elaborate fraud years in the making then nothing else I can say to you.
Sorry Sheldon I am not buying it! Not sure why your here trashing members.
Buy up the fake holders all you want. Free country.
Exactly thank you be positive its not your money! I throw my money away on coins each day. I buy and my safe gets bigger. Thats all that is important to me. Whats in my safe.
I loose thousands in the stock market what a few hundred dollars. If it makes me happy. So be positive. I want to read positive from my fellow members. It goes much smoother. Alot of good people here. Alot of good positive people here. Good luck to you sir or miss?
Buy them all up then. Wire the guy some money. If you get "triggered" because others call out a fraud and you wish to live in an alternative reality that is your right. Keep me out of it.
The other party in this dispute (Sheldon) has claimed that you changed your ID/name/entity.
Have you changed your ID (name) on eBay or any coin forums ?
Have you used any alias on the internet or in person ?
And if so, why ?
Just exactly how would posting chat logs imperil an investigation. They are your chat logs and you're free to do what you wish with them. How would posting the logs be worse than trashing someone with NO evidence? Absent evidence, you are committing your own set of crimes in plain view (libel, restraint of trade).
If you don't want to imperil an investigation, that's fine, then just shut up about it and let Justice take its course. You want to talk about it, we need more than "SOB says its true".
I would also suggest that even if he made the slabs, they aren't exactly "fake slabs". It may be a fake date on a "real slab". But, at the worst, it's a real coin in a real holder, graded by someone we don't know that may or may not have the correct date on it. If he really wanted to run a scam, he could buy fake PCGS slabs on Alibaba and put real (or fake) coins in THOSE which would have more market cachet than these no name slabs.
Personally, I don't have any reason to trust EITHER ONE OF YOU.
jmlanzaf I will not dissagree with you cause I have come to respect you. Also with DC asking questions I think that is good. But the constant put downs by both parties, back and forth is just tiring. I said my peace yesterday and I am satisfied. I respect what you say cause I just do. I will let the rest take its course. I move on to other things in life that brings me peace. Like Dan's latest creation coming in the near future. Any new coins that I may find. Life is just to precious to worry about this stuff. So thank you for your comments and I do welcome it. Keep breaking them sets up and sharing your outcome. I actually am one that appreciates what you have to say.
tell us about the sting operation
I sure hope you guys are like 14 years old.
He already did. Read the earlier thread.