@mach1ne said:
Yes, you read that correctly. If a buyer disagrees with a grade from a TPG, they can simply open a return for the item as "Not as Described" or "Defective" and the seller is forced to pay return shipping. They don't need to provide evidence for either case. This hasn't happened to me in the decade I've been on eBay.
In my case, I sold a coin graded Environmentally Damaged by PCGS. The buyer agreed, saying "it appears to have been dug
out of the ground" but also "it seems to have been cleaned." No problem, simply return the coin if you don't like it. But to mark it as defective or not as described is a big hit to a seller, not to mention I'm forced to pay return shipping for a coin you simply don't like.
It seems to me, if you buy an MS66 coin but think it's an MS65, you could do the same thing and force the seller to pay return shipping in addition to have a SNAD against them.
Appears like a huge Pandora's box could be opened with this policy. What would stop someone trying for possible upgrades from ordering the coins, where upon receiving them decides with an 'in hand' viewing, that while the coin may be accurately graded, has little or no chance of an upgrade or cross. If true, this policy is a fubar from hell in the making for a lot of ebayers!
@mach1ne said:
Yes, you read that correctly. If a buyer disagrees with a grade from a TPG, they can simply open a return for the
Appears like a huge Pandora's box could be opened with this policy. What would stop someone trying for possible upgrades from ordering the coins, where upon receiving them decides with an 'in hand' viewing, that while the coin may be accurately graded, has little or no chance of an upgrade or cross. If true, this policy is a fubar from hell in the making for a lot of ebayers!
Or speculating on the price of bullion.
But, again, it has ALWAYS been this way. SNAD has existed forever. And, worse than SNAD, credit card chargebacks have existed forever and often have 180 day windows to file.
The eBay blame/paranoia is misplaced. Try dealing with a credit card company on a chargeback 120 days after delivery. It's a commerce problem that has always existed and is very hard on the little guys who don't have billion dollar set asides to deal with the costs.
@coinkat said:
So how can EBay side with the buyer in terms of not as described if graded by PCGS or NGC? I am underwhelmed that EBay would contemplate accepting that argument from a buyer in view of the third part opinion.
The lady on the phone said that they automatically accept every SNAD or Defective return and force the seller to ship. Sellers only recourse is to appeal the case to get reimbursed. That is their model.
True story. I have a friend who sells vintage toys on eBay. About 8 or 10 years ago, he sold a model train set to a customer in Canada. 2 or 3 months later, the customer filed a charge back with their credit card company claiming it didn't work. He was forced to take it back and...it didn't work! He insists it worked when he sent it. Because 30 days had passed (if I recall) the shipper would not take an insurance claim for damaged in shipping. So, my friend had to just eat it.
The seller side of you hates the policy. But, if you are being honest, the BUYER side of you loves the policy.
We've had this discussion in other topics about buying the coin not the holder. Well, if you paid for what you thought the coin looked like in the holder and it arrived looking differently, would you not want to return the coin - no matter what the TPGS holder said?
@coinkat said:
So how can EBay side with the buyer in terms of not as described if graded by PCGS or NGC? I am underwhelmed that EBay would contemplate accepting that argument from a buyer in view of the third part opinion.
The lady on the phone said that they automatically accept every SNAD or Defective return and force the seller to ship. Sellers only recourse is to appeal the case to get reimbursed. That is their model.
Saves a lot of investigation time for sure. Would anyone expect the eBay person on the phone to know if a coin is properly graded or not? it's a shame when expert opinion doesn't seem to be worth much.
@jmlanzaf said:
would you not want to return the coin - no matter what the TPGS holder said?
Yes, but not as "Defected" or "Not as Described". eBay practically incentivizes this.
eBay actually wants sellers to all offer "free returns" with no limitations. SNAD or charge backs are just ways that buyers have to get around sellers trying to NOT offer returns.
They do incentivize this. I don't get my top seller discount on items that don't offer free returns. I actually had a woman return a bracelet that I sold. She contacted me and thanked me for the fast delivery and said the bracelet was very nice but that she had decided to take a trip to Europe instead and needed the money. I was out 6 bucks in round-trip shipping + 30 cents on PayPal (they don't reverse the 30 cent fee), but it's just the cost of doing business.
Again, you don't have to like it, but it's NOT an eBay problem really. It's a retail problem. Walmart, Target, Amazon etc. all have the same issue. And they've really had it even before eCommerce. All those post-Christmas returns had a cost associated to them. Consumers never cared because they expected the RIGHT to return. I really don't see this as any different.
Comments
Appears like a huge Pandora's box could be opened with this policy. What would stop someone trying for possible upgrades from ordering the coins, where upon receiving them decides with an 'in hand' viewing, that while the coin may be accurately graded, has little or no chance of an upgrade or cross. If true, this policy is a fubar from hell in the making for a lot of ebayers!
Or speculating on the price of bullion.
But, again, it has ALWAYS been this way. SNAD has existed forever. And, worse than SNAD, credit card chargebacks have existed forever and often have 180 day windows to file.
The eBay blame/paranoia is misplaced. Try dealing with a credit card company on a chargeback 120 days after delivery. It's a commerce problem that has always existed and is very hard on the little guys who don't have billion dollar set asides to deal with the costs.
...eBay sucked me dry and now I’m hungry...lets do it again tomorrow
The lady on the phone said that they automatically accept every SNAD or Defective return and force the seller to ship. Sellers only recourse is to appeal the case to get reimbursed. That is their model.
Check out my iPhone app SlabReader!
True story. I have a friend who sells vintage toys on eBay. About 8 or 10 years ago, he sold a model train set to a customer in Canada. 2 or 3 months later, the customer filed a charge back with their credit card company claiming it didn't work. He was forced to take it back and...it didn't work! He insists it worked when he sent it. Because 30 days had passed (if I recall) the shipper would not take an insurance claim for damaged in shipping. So, my friend had to just eat it.
The seller side of you hates the policy. But, if you are being honest, the BUYER side of you loves the policy.
We've had this discussion in other topics about buying the coin not the holder. Well, if you paid for what you thought the coin looked like in the holder and it arrived looking differently, would you not want to return the coin - no matter what the TPGS holder said?
Sad - not surprised.
Bad sales month for me plus 2 non payers.
This can't be a good thing.
I assume these Fleabay "judges" are making these decisions somewhere in a shed many, many miles away?
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
Yes, but not as "Defected" or "Not as Described". eBay practically incentivizes this.
Check out my iPhone app SlabReader!
Saves a lot of investigation time for sure. Would anyone expect the eBay person on the phone to know if a coin is properly graded or not? it's a shame when expert opinion doesn't seem to be worth much.
eBay actually wants sellers to all offer "free returns" with no limitations. SNAD or charge backs are just ways that buyers have to get around sellers trying to NOT offer returns.
They do incentivize this. I don't get my top seller discount on items that don't offer free returns. I actually had a woman return a bracelet that I sold. She contacted me and thanked me for the fast delivery and said the bracelet was very nice but that she had decided to take a trip to Europe instead and needed the money. I was out 6 bucks in round-trip shipping + 30 cents on PayPal (they don't reverse the 30 cent fee), but it's just the cost of doing business.
Again, you don't have to like it, but it's NOT an eBay problem really. It's a retail problem. Walmart, Target, Amazon etc. all have the same issue. And they've really had it even before eCommerce. All those post-Christmas returns had a cost associated to them. Consumers never cared because they expected the RIGHT to return. I really don't see this as any different.
Just a cost of doing business.
Yes, this summer has been slower than usual for me also.