Huge Policy Change? eBay now sides with buyers who disagree with PCGS grades
MonsterCoinz
Posts: 1,518 ✭✭✭✭✭
Yes, you read that correctly. If a buyer disagrees with a grade from a TPG, they can simply open a return for the item as "Not as Described" or "Defective" and the seller is forced to pay return shipping. They don't need to provide evidence for either case. This hasn't happened to me in the decade I've been on eBay.
In my case, I sold a coin graded Environmentally Damaged by PCGS. The buyer agreed, saying "it appears to have been dug
out of the ground" but also "it seems to have been cleaned." No problem, simply return the coin if you don't like it. But to mark it as defective or not as described is a big hit to a seller, not to mention I'm forced to pay return shipping for a coin you simply don't like.
It seems to me, if you buy an MS66 coin but think it's an MS65, you could do the same thing and force the seller to pay return shipping in addition to have a SNAD against them.
Comments
Crap. It's August 1, not April 1.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
I was told directly from a manager over there, they will side with the buyer every time he opens a not as described case. How true that is, I don't know, but your example sure proves it!
How about CAC?
Can we do a "Not as described" case for other things -- ?
This should make life interesting for dealers who use ebay as a venue to sell coins that they cannot sell in face-to-face transactions.
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
This has really always been the case. Savvy buyers have always known that SNAD will get them a free return. Savvy and less honest buyers have always known that filing a credit card chargeback always works also. There have been chargeback horror stories since 1998.
This is NOT AN EBAY PROBLEM. This is a RETAILER PROBLEM. Ask Walmart, Amazon and Target what "free returns" and chargebacks cost them annually. Amazon convinced consumers that shipping should always be free - both ways. It is now part of the retail landscape.
Sellers pay eBay's bills. They would do well to remember that.
https://wsj.com/articles/the-rising-cost-of-free-returns-1444398695
eBay still has a block list, right?
Had a guy get on mine one time for that.
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PCGS identified the problem and certified it as such; for quite a while the genuine holder would have a code for a problem if it did not have a grade level, usually the worst problem is listed on holder. But the buyer still has to pay return insurance, if it gets lost that's on them. The postage is usually only standard first class or priority. As for this being a coin that dealers "can't sell" in face to face transactions, of course they could, it just takes longer than a global marketplace usually.
Online dating?
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
If a seller posted "absolutely no returns" can the buyer still get a return?
This has huge implications though. If I buy a Babe Ruth signed baseball and disagree with the certificate of authenticity, I shouldn't be able to file a SNAD if I got the exact item in the listing. Disagreeing with a 3rd party authenticator or a description by a manufacturer ("size 10", "running shoe") does not constitute as a "Not as Described" listing. Since when are sellers responsible for opinions or adjectives used by manufacturers?
Check out my iPhone app SlabReader!
Yes. File a SNAD.
Check out my iPhone app SlabReader!
Not only yes, but the eBay system does not let you add those descriptions. I tired it once and was given the message that they want their buyers to feel safe when buying, or something like that, and I had to remove it before I could post the auction.
Yes. There's no way around the issue of returns. eBay will make sure that the buyer is protected. Amazon is the same way. Just a reality of online coin sales these days. For that reason, I started doing 30 day "no questions asked" returns and we even pay the return shipping. Out of 500 sales per month we see roughly 5 returns per month. Not too bad. Keep in mind that even if eBay does not side with a buyer, the same buyer can open a claim with PayPal or their credit card company to force the return.
What a racket!
The seller may have set HIMSELF up by speculating on what HE thought caused the environmental damage.
I think letting the slab speak for itself would have been a better path.
Where did I ever state or speculate what caused the damage? The buyer is the one suggested it came out of the ground. And even if I had, my opinion doesn't make the slab "defective".
Check out my iPhone app SlabReader!
This isn't new. I had someone pull this on me with a coin I started at no reserve. It was NGC and CAC. I refused to pay eBay's bill and I can no longer sell as a result. Hell will freeze over before I pay them one red cent.
Yep. Right up there with auction houses.
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
I apologize. I misread the OP and thought the seller speculated on the cause.
Sorry.
It's lucky that no one is forced to use either one.
I must be the only guy in the world who, as a buyer, filed a SNAD and lost. eBay sided with the seller. About six years ago.
Lance.
Indeed. We go meekly off the cliff.
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
I have my issues with Ebay, but return abuse is not one of them. Rate has been 1-2% for a decade and I believe that I only ate return shipping once. Don't expect much to change with this new dictate.
I have better date Morgan dollar ICG graded with the "scratch" noted on the label. Returned because the buyer didn't read the holder or the description; "When I first bid on the item I didn t notice the scratch detail on the slide. In fact I didn t see that until it arrived...." At least he didn't do an item not as described.
When I ordered my Chain Cent, you sent me a Lincoln Memorial and I was so upset that I spent it and I want my money back.
I've won plenty of SNADs from unreasonable buyers. This is one that I would fight, noting that the coin sent was accurately described as a PCGS Environmentally Damaged coin, with an emphasis (for eBay) that it's a grading company they approve. For good measure (and I've had to go to it before), buried in my terms is a statement that grades for certified coins are backed by the guarantee of the particular certification agency. In other words, if you disagree, take it up with them. It might not always work, but especially with graded coins, I've done pretty well. I also call any time I have an issue, and do enough business to get local support, which may be beneficial.
Nobody wins except e-Bay
"Keep your malarkey filter in good operating order" -Walter Breen
Market cap of Ebay is a 30th of that of Amazon.
Amazon builds warehouses and hires folks to pack and ship merchandise (albeit at taxpayer expense). Ebay does none of that.
Ebay provides a Costco like seller platform and expects dealers to offer Neiman Marcus amenities.
In a decade Ebay will be bunched in the remember when heap with K-Mart, Radio Shack and yahoo auctions.
What the heck is "online dating"? Now, you can get the coin's dated too? Are they considered original? This is worse than CAC
When is the last time you won? If in the last 3 months since this policy change, you are doing good!
They changed that a few months ago Lance. At least that is what the dude told me when I was forced to take back something that I would have easily won a year ago.
I initially lost one. I paid a premium for a toned CC Morgan when the images were juiced. The seller refused a return, and initially eBay inexplicably sided with the seller. After a phone call eBay confirmed it was an error.
EBay issued a refund and let me keep the coin (the seller of course kept his money too).
As long as he foots the bill for his stupidity and I received my eBay fees back, I wouldn't really mind or care about that every now and then. The part that irritates me is when there is nothing wrong or any issues are clearly in the description and then the buyer files a SNAD to force the seller to pay shipping. That is rich IMHO.
These kinds of things become necessary due to the insidious dishonesty of a significant proportion of participants. Most laws have the same origin, for example "emoluments" in our Constitution.
PS: "Emoluments" are not stuff put on men's hair to force a huge comb-over to stick in place.
A little different than this situation but I won a SNAD within the past 6 months or so. I sold a toned coin for approximately $300 and when the buyer received it he messaged me "This doesn't have as vibrant toning as I expected, refund me $40 and we can call it good." I told him no way! Send it back but I am not moving a dime. He then messaged me back "It's going to cost you saying no to me, $50 refund or this coin is coming back to you after 29 days (the most Ebay allows before closing the case) with a big old red feedback! Peace buddy".
Boy did that feel good!
I ignored him and waited for a case to open and he sent me a few more messages similar to those that I didn't save but when he opened his case I uploaded all the screenshots of the messages and I won
You gonna ask the father-in-law that?
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
Yes. I tried that as well did not work. E-Bay does not care about the seller. I had a guy hold all his feed back on me then after 50 or so he told me to return all his shipping or get a neg. I said I cant but I will give him free shipping from there on if we can ship all items in one box at the end of auctions on Sunday. He sad no and gave me 5 neg's and said do you want more and kept doing it I called Bay they side there is nothing we can do. maybe you should refund him. That's when I said this is not worth it that and PayPal.
Hoard the keys.
Some eBay sellers also do that. I occasionally have fits when I order a consumer good and it comes from a warehouse.
My only neg was on a ...secondary... seller who sold metal garden hoses and it leaked and I tested their "no question" return policy and got nowhere until I had to go to PayPal ...and...eBay.
Then the jerk asks me WHY I negged him after sending me a msg saying "sure they'd take it back."
MorganMan94 - Good for you! Attempted extortion does not sit well with most businesses, regardless of their customary behaviors.
I think this sucks, and I don't plan to ever sell on ebay again. Let me share an experience you may find interesting.
About 15-20 years ago, a dealer tried to run a scam on me. I had a nice early '50s cameo coin in a non-PCGS holder. He liked it a lot and wanted to buy it with a return privilege - claiming he had a client that would likely be interested. I agreed to the arrangement and if the client didn't like the coin, the dealer would return it to me the next show. All is OK with me, but I was a bit leery. I think we all want satisfied customers.
Turns out the dealer had no client. What he planned to do was cross it from the original plastic to PCGS plastic and reap a big payday. Problem was, he slow-boated it to save a few bucks and he didn't get it back by the next show. I was steamed - and when I found out what he really did I took note - I did not confront the dealer at that time. You see, this dealer couldn't keep his trap shut and had told other dealers how he ripped this coin and was going to get it in PCGS plastic and have a big payday.
Two months later, I got my coin back in the original holder. Of course, the dealer simply said the client had no interest, even though the coin had made a crossover trip to PCGS and back. Let's just say that I raised my voice at the show when he gave the coin back and that I reamed him a new one. After all, I had over a month to practice. I got applause from a number of dealers that knew of the ruse. I never did business or even recognize the existence of this dealer again.
So why the long tale of something that happened so long ago? With the new policy (and maybe it would work with the existing policy), what is to prevent some tire kicker or upgrade artist from buying your coin, submitting it for an upgrade, CAC sticker, or crossover? If it doesn't pan out, you simply return it to the dealer. But if it hits, the buyer will surely be on the boards bragging of his/her prowess of upgrading or creating value at some sellers expense.
There, I feel better. Time for another double Canadian whiskey.....
“In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock." - Thomas Jefferson
My digital cameo album 1950-64 Cameos - take a look!
How long of a return privilege did you agree to with him? Two months is excessive. Unless I had agreed to it, I would have shrugged my shoulders and told him it was his problem and not mine.
He was supposed to give the coin back at the next monthly show. But I was already on to his antics.
Edited to add: In the grand scheme of things the details of my example doesn't really matter. I think it is easy to discern that people can be scammed with such a liberal return policy at fleabay.
“In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock." - Thomas Jefferson
My digital cameo album 1950-64 Cameos - take a look!
So how can EBay side with the buyer in terms of not as described if graded by PCGS or NGC? I am underwhelmed that EBay would contemplate accepting that argument from a buyer in view of the third part opinion. Seems SNAD should be reduced to SAD.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
It's been a few months. I guess we'll see next time one comes up. Luckily they aren't too common, knock on wood...