Bad for the overall market. If cards don't have the sticker buyer might assume its not HE or PQ, i.e. no sticker equal card is "overgraded" or just average, which might not be the case if the seller hasn't consigned to them. Adds more confusion to the marketplace = not good
Been awhile since I’ve chimed in on anything but I had a feeling this would be a topic here and wanted to hear everyone’s thoughts and chime in on my own. I consign with Brent 4 or 5 times a year and buy items from them all the time.
I side with the people who think it’s not good for our hobby/market in general. Since PWCC touches so many graded cards, what if I want to buy a card anywhere else that doesn’t have a sticker? Should I go into their analytics to see if they touched the card and didn’t award a sticker? Will it get to a point where we want our cards to only sell through PWCC in order to get the sticker bump? What if they don’t? Will they now take in cards to evaluate and not sell but charge us for evaluation and sticker or no sticker? I bet and now if I want to sell a card I almost have to put it through them.
I have been grading cards with my eye from over 20 years and I agree with some of their assessments and disagree with others..for a guy like me, this sucks as it’s just another manipulation in our hobby that will most likely grow overtime as a standard. It helps those that are novice or beginners as they can just buy a sticker card and know they are getting a good investment. Bottom line, I think it’s bad for our hobby in a number of ways. It also diminishes PSA in my opinion which could get bad for PSA long term if someone comes up with a company that factors in eye appeal as part of their grading system.
@belz said:
Been awhile since I’ve chimed in on anything but I had a feeling this would be a topic here and wanted to hear everyone’s thoughts and chime in on my own. I consign with Brent 4 or 5 times a year and buy items from them all the time.
I side with the people who think it’s not good for our hobby/market in general. Since PWCC touches so many graded cards, what if I want to buy a card anywhere else that doesn’t have a sticker? Should I go into their analytics to see if they touched the card and didn’t award a sticker? Will it get to a point where we want our cards to only sell through PWCC in order to get the sticker bump? What if they don’t? Will they now take in cards to evaluate and not sell but charge us for evaluation and sticker or no sticker? I bet and now if I want to sell a card I almost have to put it through them.
I have been grading cards with my eye from over 20 years and I agree with some of their assessments and disagree with others..for a guy like me, this sucks as it’s just another manipulation in our hobby that will most likely grow overtime as a standard. It helps those that are novice or beginners as they can just buy a sticker card and know they are getting a good investment. Bottom line, I think it’s bad for our hobby in a number of ways. It also diminishes PSA in my opinion which could get bad for PSA long term if someone comes up with a company that factors in eye appeal as part of their grading system.
Belz - good to hear from you and you bring up some excellent points above. Very well stated.
The percentage of cards that are consigned for sale through PWCC has got to be a small percentage compared to the number of cards being graded by PSA and/or sold on the secondary market. To my knowledge, Brent only considers those cards submitted to him for consignment for these designations and does not provide such consideration for a fee.
Are we no longer trusting the true TPG, PSA, to determine the grade? PWCC as the consignee cannot possibly be independent in this process as they stand to benefit upon awarding these stickers in the form of increased bid prices from those who can't see for themselves whether a card is solid for the grade or not.
As far as I'm concerned, I'll put my trust in PSA and my eyesight as to whether a card is high end for the grade or not. I don't need a seller to tell me that. To me this is no different from any seller declaring a card is undergraded or PQ for the grade. A clever marketing strategy, but completely superfluous.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
@grote15 said:
The percentage of cards that are consigned for sale through PWCC has got to be a small percentage compared to the number of cards being graded by PSA and/or sold on the secondary market. To my knowledge, Brent only considers those cards submitted to him for consignment for these designations and does not provide such consideration for a fee.
Just wait until "My Vault" launches....
Coming soon! A new service will be offered starting in Q4 of 2018 called the PWCC Vault, which will offer safe storage, appraisal, and collateral-backed lending. The PWCC Vault is a custom facility, built from scratch for the sole purpose of providing secure storage of trading cards. Once submitted to the Vault, members will receive a long list of services, some of which include:
Complete cataloging of items in each members's Vault Portfolio, including high-resolution scans for both sales purposes and simple owner enjoyment/sharing.
A thorough, real-time appraisal of the portfolio based on current market sales data.
Retail pricing option for each Vault Portfolio item which will appear on our website in a retail fixed-price marketplace.
Fulfillment services by PWCC staff for items which require shipment to the address on file or a 3rd party. Free evaluation for PWCC Certified High End (PWCC-HE) and PWCC Certified Premium Quality (PWCC-PQ) designations. PWCC-HE cards have statistically shown an average value increase of 65% over current market value. Refer to the Analytics page of our website.
A fluid line of credit against the appraised items in a members's Vault Portfolio. PWCC Capital will lend up to 50% of the conservative market appraisal value. More details to be discussed soon.
I will pay for the PWCC Vault service especially the fulfillment services. I have some fairly valuable cards in my collection, especially ones that have bumped from PSA 9 -> PSA 10, that I plan to sell or trade at some point and this "vault" service definitely fits the bill for me. I can see how it isn't for everyone but can't that be said for pretty much everything?
All this whining is very reminiscent of the complaining about PSA moving to half grades.
I just got my "Mile High" catalog in the mail and nearly every card in there has a description that says something like "just missed a 9" or "nicest 8 in existence". I really don't see much difference.
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
So PWCC is dangling their HE and PQ stickers as an incentive to pay for their vault service...
Create easily faked stickers that merely state the obvious about eye appeal...
Then, because most of the cards are strong, they sell as they normally would— which is to say well.
Tout these higher prices as a function of the stickers— when the card is really the thing of value. This step is critical— it is PWCC’s sleight-of-hand: they are tricking marks into jocking the sticker and not the card.
Now that the stickers have become a valuable commodity, dangle them to the marks to get more money from the Vault program— in which they’ll be making loans.
Certainly slick, but not falling for it. End of the day it seems unnecessarily convoluted.
Best to keep it simple: see nice card, buy nice card. See weak card, pass.
Sellers should be sellers and graders should be graders.
As soon as a seller also becomes a grader it creates the possibility and/or the appearance of bias and something that can be corrupted.
These stickers are a great marketing gimmick to drive auction prices higher, but unless they are coming fron somewhere outside of PWCC then it has to be taken on faith that they are not being abused for the sake of benefiting the consignment seller who applies them.
If PWCC wants to market a card as high end or better than average they could just as easily include more detailed high res scans showing close ups of the corners, superimposed “guides” that show measurements of the superior centering, comparisons to other images of the card with the same TPG grade, etc. which would never cause anyone to wonder whether their opinion was just a reflection of their own interests in getting high prices.
Comparison photos of cards in the same and neighboring grades shown side-by-side make a visual and compelling case every time for a card; a seller on eBay could do that and it would certainly help hang a bright lantern on a card's eye appeal.
Problem is, such comparison photos are not a proprietary sticker that can be exploited, LOL.
Well, "much ado about nothing" seems to apply well enough here. Those staunchly opposed to stickers "A", "B" and the PSA holder itself telling them a card is nice can buy it for what they are willing to pay, crack it out of the plastic, and pop it into an album sheet. Consternation resolved.
Funny how much alike the sturm und drang with PWCC stickers is to the CAC "discussion" in coins.
@originalisbest said:
Well, "much ado about nothing" seems to apply well enough here. Those staunchly opposed to stickers "A", "B" and the PSA holder itself telling them a card is nice can buy it for what they are willing to pay, crack it out of the plastic, and pop it into an album sheet. Consternation resolved.
Funny how much alike the sturm und drang with PWCC stickers is to the CAC "discussion" in coins.
And that CAC discussion has been going on for years!
Successful coin BST transactions with Gerard and segoja.
Successful card BST transactions with cbcnow, brogurt, gstarling, Bravesfan 007, and rajah 424.
@originalisbest said:
Well, "much ado about nothing" seems to apply well enough here. Those staunchly opposed to stickers "A", "B" and the PSA holder itself telling them a card is nice can buy it for what they are willing to pay, crack it out of the plastic, and pop it into an album sheet. Consternation resolved.
Funny how much alike the sturm und drang with PWCC stickers is to the CAC "discussion" in coins.
And that CAC discussion has been going on for years!
Ain't that the truth! Honestly I think in the world of cards, there will be less overall impact by this, in comparison to coins and CAC. Which is not to say there's no impact; but it just depends on what cards head through PWCC's doors. I haven't really explored the proposal where one could store one's cards offsite at a secure location? That part I simply wouldn't need, unless I was a pure investor and never needed access to actually look at them. It might work for some folks of course. But there's really no need for the hoopla IMO; this new sticker will sink or swim in the marketplace on its own merits.
@originalisbest said:
Well, "much ado about nothing" seems to apply well enough here. Those staunchly opposed to stickers "A", "B" and the PSA holder itself telling them a card is nice can buy it for what they are willing to pay, crack it out of the plastic, and pop it into an album sheet. Consternation resolved.
Funny how much alike the sturm und drang with PWCC stickers is to the CAC "discussion" in coins.
And that CAC discussion has been going on for years!
Ain't that the truth! Honestly I think in the world of cards, there will be less overall impact by this, in comparison to coins and CAC. Which is not to say there's no impact; but it just depends on what cards head through PWCC's doors. I haven't really explored the proposal where one could store one's cards offsite at a secure location? That part I simply wouldn't need, unless I was a pure investor and never needed access to actually look at them. It might work for some folks of course. But there's really no need for the hoopla IMO; this new sticker will sink or swim in the marketplace on its own merits.
I agree about the storage part but I would give them an A for effort. Being able to evolve/pivot is essential for long term success.
Successful coin BST transactions with Gerard and segoja.
Successful card BST transactions with cbcnow, brogurt, gstarling, Bravesfan 007, and rajah 424.
Honestly I think the whole thing is a load of crap. I don’t need to be told something is high end. If I am spending 1K plus I am doing my homework. Let alone various shades of a second sticker. Come on man!!!
Case in point I bought a Koosman Milton Bradley 7.5 last year for $2100. Really liked the card, crazy nice qualities but it is a 7.5 for a reason and wanted something else. Sold it for 3K this year. Not a bad profit.
Saw it listed by PWCC as HE 7.5 and end this week. Is that an oxymoron??
What did it go far with the sparkling sticker and write up??? $2013. Was I concerned I left some money on the table and it was going end at 4K+ absolutely. Essentially the sticker meant nothing.
I don't understand people's frustration with this tactic. I think it's a good business move. No one is forced to bid on a card they don't want. I also appreciate the fact that PWCC shows a clear pie-chart breakdown of how many cards get each rating (with pictures), so that we don't have to worry about the number of HE cards creeping up without warrant.
Every time I've seen an "HE" card, the designation has been deserved.
Is it really that much different from my selling my own cards and posting "centered" in the listing? When I write "centered" in the listing title, the cards usually go for more than VCP.
I don't consign , hell no longer sell anything. No real skin in the game. But could I add a high end designation to some of my pics on collectorfocus using a watermark? I've got a decent 40 years + collecting comics and cards now and probably have as much knowledge about "high end" and " top end for grade" as anyone, and like anyone elses opinion on manufactured high end designation it's worthless , but, could make a cool watermark
Comments
I hope I can keep the OCD in check and not have to collect one of each sticker.
Bad for the overall market. If cards don't have the sticker buyer might assume its not HE or PQ, i.e. no sticker equal card is "overgraded" or just average, which might not be the case if the seller hasn't consigned to them. Adds more confusion to the marketplace = not good
Been awhile since I’ve chimed in on anything but I had a feeling this would be a topic here and wanted to hear everyone’s thoughts and chime in on my own. I consign with Brent 4 or 5 times a year and buy items from them all the time.
I side with the people who think it’s not good for our hobby/market in general. Since PWCC touches so many graded cards, what if I want to buy a card anywhere else that doesn’t have a sticker? Should I go into their analytics to see if they touched the card and didn’t award a sticker? Will it get to a point where we want our cards to only sell through PWCC in order to get the sticker bump? What if they don’t? Will they now take in cards to evaluate and not sell but charge us for evaluation and sticker or no sticker? I bet and now if I want to sell a card I almost have to put it through them.
I have been grading cards with my eye from over 20 years and I agree with some of their assessments and disagree with others..for a guy like me, this sucks as it’s just another manipulation in our hobby that will most likely grow overtime as a standard. It helps those that are novice or beginners as they can just buy a sticker card and know they are getting a good investment. Bottom line, I think it’s bad for our hobby in a number of ways. It also diminishes PSA in my opinion which could get bad for PSA long term if someone comes up with a company that factors in eye appeal as part of their grading system.
Belz - good to hear from you and you bring up some excellent points above. Very well stated.
KC
This.
buying O-Pee-Chee (OPC) baseball
The percentage of cards that are consigned for sale through PWCC has got to be a small percentage compared to the number of cards being graded by PSA and/or sold on the secondary market. To my knowledge, Brent only considers those cards submitted to him for consignment for these designations and does not provide such consideration for a fee.
Are we no longer trusting the true TPG, PSA, to determine the grade? PWCC as the consignee cannot possibly be independent in this process as they stand to benefit upon awarding these stickers in the form of increased bid prices from those who can't see for themselves whether a card is solid for the grade or not.
As far as I'm concerned, I'll put my trust in PSA and my eyesight as to whether a card is high end for the grade or not. I don't need a seller to tell me that. To me this is no different from any seller declaring a card is undergraded or PQ for the grade. A clever marketing strategy, but completely superfluous.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Here’s another one: he grows up to become Harrison Ford
That
Just wait until "My Vault" launches....
Coming soon! A new service will be offered starting in Q4 of 2018 called the PWCC Vault, which will offer safe storage, appraisal, and collateral-backed lending. The PWCC Vault is a custom facility, built from scratch for the sole purpose of providing secure storage of trading cards. Once submitted to the Vault, members will receive a long list of services, some of which include:
Complete cataloging of items in each members's Vault Portfolio, including high-resolution scans for both sales purposes and simple owner enjoyment/sharing.
A thorough, real-time appraisal of the portfolio based on current market sales data.
Retail pricing option for each Vault Portfolio item which will appear on our website in a retail fixed-price marketplace.
Fulfillment services by PWCC staff for items which require shipment to the address on file or a 3rd party.
Free evaluation for PWCC Certified High End (PWCC-HE) and PWCC Certified Premium Quality (PWCC-PQ) designations. PWCC-HE cards have statistically shown an average value increase of 65% over current market value. Refer to the Analytics page of our website.
A fluid line of credit against the appraised items in a members's Vault Portfolio. PWCC Capital will lend up to 50% of the conservative market appraisal value. More details to be discussed soon.
I will pay for the PWCC Vault service especially the fulfillment services. I have some fairly valuable cards in my collection, especially ones that have bumped from PSA 9 -> PSA 10, that I plan to sell or trade at some point and this "vault" service definitely fits the bill for me. I can see how it isn't for everyone but can't that be said for pretty much everything?
All this whining is very reminiscent of the complaining about PSA moving to half grades.
Robb
You'll pay without knowing the cost? I can understand being interested, but I would want to see a services pricing menu first.
The Doomsday Collection
Dallas Cowboys Ring of Honor | All-Time Dallas Cowboys | Bob Lilly Master | Pro Football HOF Dallas Cowboys
So, is it just the sticker that bothers you guys?
I just got my "Mile High" catalog in the mail and nearly every card in there has a description that says something like "just missed a 9" or "nicest 8 in existence". I really don't see much difference.
So PWCC is dangling their HE and PQ stickers as an incentive to pay for their vault service...
Create easily faked stickers that merely state the obvious about eye appeal...
Then, because most of the cards are strong, they sell as they normally would— which is to say well.
Tout these higher prices as a function of the stickers— when the card is really the thing of value. This step is critical— it is PWCC’s sleight-of-hand: they are tricking marks into jocking the sticker and not the card.
Now that the stickers have become a valuable commodity, dangle them to the marks to get more money from the Vault program— in which they’ll be making loans.
Certainly slick, but not falling for it. End of the day it seems unnecessarily convoluted.
Best to keep it simple: see nice card, buy nice card. See weak card, pass.
I think many of the HE cards sell for more than they would have without the designation.
Robb
Is PWCC's HE sticker just used on PSA graded cards or do they use it on BGS & SGC as well?
Eric
Erikthredd’s MJ Collection: https://www.psacard.com/psasetregistry/publishedset/395035
Erikthredd’s Nike Air Jordan Collection: https://www.psacard.com/psasetregistry/basketball/key-card-sets/nike-poster-cards-michael-jordan-1985-1992/alltimeset/408486
PWCC uses HE sticker on PSA as well as SGC and BGS graded cards.
I’ve said this before and I will say it again.
Sellers should be sellers and graders should be graders.
As soon as a seller also becomes a grader it creates the possibility and/or the appearance of bias and something that can be corrupted.
These stickers are a great marketing gimmick to drive auction prices higher, but unless they are coming fron somewhere outside of PWCC then it has to be taken on faith that they are not being abused for the sake of benefiting the consignment seller who applies them.
If PWCC wants to market a card as high end or better than average they could just as easily include more detailed high res scans showing close ups of the corners, superimposed “guides” that show measurements of the superior centering, comparisons to other images of the card with the same TPG grade, etc. which would never cause anyone to wonder whether their opinion was just a reflection of their own interests in getting high prices.
Dave
Great point, Dave.
Comparison photos of cards in the same and neighboring grades shown side-by-side make a visual and compelling case every time for a card; a seller on eBay could do that and it would certainly help hang a bright lantern on a card's eye appeal.
Problem is, such comparison photos are not a proprietary sticker that can be exploited, LOL.
Well, "much ado about nothing" seems to apply well enough here. Those staunchly opposed to stickers "A", "B" and the PSA holder itself telling them a card is nice can buy it for what they are willing to pay, crack it out of the plastic, and pop it into an album sheet. Consternation resolved.
Funny how much alike the sturm und drang with PWCC stickers is to the CAC "discussion" in coins.
And that CAC discussion has been going on for years!
Successful card BST transactions with cbcnow, brogurt, gstarling, Bravesfan 007, and rajah 424.
Ain't that the truth! Honestly I think in the world of cards, there will be less overall impact by this, in comparison to coins and CAC. Which is not to say there's no impact; but it just depends on what cards head through PWCC's doors. I haven't really explored the proposal where one could store one's cards offsite at a secure location? That part I simply wouldn't need, unless I was a pure investor and never needed access to actually look at them. It might work for some folks of course. But there's really no need for the hoopla IMO; this new sticker will sink or swim in the marketplace on its own merits.
I agree about the storage part but I would give them an A for effort. Being able to evolve/pivot is essential for long term success.
Successful card BST transactions with cbcnow, brogurt, gstarling, Bravesfan 007, and rajah 424.
Honestly I think the whole thing is a load of crap. I don’t need to be told something is high end. If I am spending 1K plus I am doing my homework. Let alone various shades of a second sticker. Come on man!!!
Case in point I bought a Koosman Milton Bradley 7.5 last year for $2100. Really liked the card, crazy nice qualities but it is a 7.5 for a reason and wanted something else. Sold it for 3K this year. Not a bad profit.
Saw it listed by PWCC as HE 7.5 and end this week. Is that an oxymoron??
What did it go far with the sparkling sticker and write up??? $2013. Was I concerned I left some money on the table and it was going end at 4K+ absolutely. Essentially the sticker meant nothing.
I don't understand people's frustration with this tactic. I think it's a good business move. No one is forced to bid on a card they don't want. I also appreciate the fact that PWCC shows a clear pie-chart breakdown of how many cards get each rating (with pictures), so that we don't have to worry about the number of HE cards creeping up without warrant.
Every time I've seen an "HE" card, the designation has been deserved.
Is it really that much different from my selling my own cards and posting "centered" in the listing? When I write "centered" in the listing title, the cards usually go for more than VCP.
Badges? We don’t need no stinkin badges!
Kevin
Buy the card, not the sticker or stickers
I don't consign , hell no longer sell anything. No real skin in the game. But could I add a high end designation to some of my pics on collectorfocus using a watermark? I've got a decent 40 years + collecting comics and cards now and probably have as much knowledge about "high end" and " top end for grade" as anyone, and like anyone elses opinion on manufactured high end designation it's worthless , but, could make a cool watermark