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1560 Mansfeld Thaler: What's so special? Update: Mystery Solved

jgennjgenn Posts: 744 ✭✭✭✭✭
edited January 4, 2019 4:11PM in World & Ancient Coins Forum

I won this thaler a week ago and immediately received a "buy from owner" offer through Heritage for a decent increase over my winning bid. This one is destined for my Silver Dollars of '60 set so I did not respond to the offer but I did post a trade offer in several forums that I frequent, hoping to catch the eye of the individual that really wants this coin. I haven't received a response from the trade offers but I did get a second, higher offer through Heritage after the first one expired.

https://coins.ha.com/itm/german-states/mansfeld/german-states-mansfeld-johann-georg-i-peter-ernst-i-and-christoph-ii-taler-1560-vf-details-edge-filing-ngc-/a/231813-65177.s

So what's so special about this thaler? I only found two other auction records for coins matching this one on acsearch (there are several varieties that are close but different -- Mansfeld-Eisleben). Can anyone verify the Davenport #?. My references don't go back that far. NGC says 9484 but one German auction said 9482.

I intend to keep it unless I can trade it for another nice crown with a 60 in the date (or one of the really scarce Charles III Mexico City 8 reales that I don't have).

~jack

Amazing 8s * Silver Dollars of '60 * My World Crown Affair
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Comments

  • worldcoinguyworldcoinguy Posts: 3,019 ✭✭✭✭

    Jack,
    I read your thread with interest yesterday but couldn't offer anything special to contribute. I was hoping that another guess would have been offered in the interim. It has a nice strong strike for a mid 16th century piece.

  • jgennjgenn Posts: 744 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited April 8, 2018 10:43PM

    I just got it in the mail today. Here are my photos but the coins is much more colorful in hand.

    Edit: adjusted white balance on reverse

    Amazing 8s * Silver Dollars of '60 * My World Crown Affair
  • U1chicagoU1chicago Posts: 6,254 ✭✭✭✭✭

    It's definitely cool and looks very appealing for a details graded coin!
    I'm also not sure if there is anything unusual. Maybe the person sending the Heritage offer really wanted the coin for their set but forgot to bid (and is now trying to offer you the max they were willing to spend)?

  • jgennjgenn Posts: 744 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited April 9, 2018 10:12PM

    I dug out my copy of the "Standard Price Guide to World Crowns & Talers 1484-1968 as cataloged by Dr. John S. Davenport" for further information. Given the span of years, this reference is not much more than a listing of Davenport numbers with a few notes, out-of-date prices with a small fraction having coin images (and none matching my coin). However, it does include the following introduction to Mansfeld thalers:

    Coins of Mansfeld in the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries are of remarkable similarity. The St. George and Dragon motif is found on virtually every piece. This, in conjunction with the numbers of family lines, large amounts of silver to mint coins and the rulers of one line issuing coins together with rulers of other lines, results in a enormous number of virtually indistinguishable talers...

    So, no small task to figure out the correct Daveport number without a picture. In my photo, you can see the mintmark to the left of St. George's head. German auction results associate the Weinblatt (or grape leaf) mintmark with the town of Einsleben. The Davenport reference shows a section for the Vorderort Eisleben line with Davenport numbers 9481-9499 and the first rulers listed are Johann Georg I, Peter Ernst I, Christoph II, 1558-1569. These track better than any others with my coin having the legend on the obverse of -- IOHAN * GE * PETER ERNS * CHRIS -- with the (15)60 date. The four Davenport numbers with notes in this subsection are:

    9481 Taler 1559, 1560 No Date
    9482 Taler No Date
    9483 Hybrid Taler No Date
    9484 Taler 1559, 1560 No Date

    From this reference, it looks like the possible numbers are 9481 and 9484, so maybe NGC got it right by going with 9484.

    Amazing 8s * Silver Dollars of '60 * My World Crown Affair
  • Timbuk3Timbuk3 Posts: 11,658 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I like it !!! :)

    Timbuk3
  • jgennjgenn Posts: 744 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Can anyone else add any useful info? I know there are better Davenport references out there.

    Amazing 8s * Silver Dollars of '60 * My World Crown Affair
  • jgennjgenn Posts: 744 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited April 11, 2018 6:11PM

    I think these photos do a better job of capturing the color in the remaining luster, especially in the legends.

    Amazing 8s * Silver Dollars of '60 * My World Crown Affair
  • jgennjgenn Posts: 744 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Mystery solved. Please take a look at the great information on Mansfeld and its thalers in the answer to my post.

    Amazing 8s * Silver Dollars of '60 * My World Crown Affair
  • JohnnyCacheJohnnyCache Posts: 1,794 ✭✭✭✭✭

    mansfeld01 did a wonderful write up

    Charles III Album

    Charles III Portrait Set

    Charles IV Album

    Charles IV Portrait Set

    Spanish Colonial Pillar Set

  • Bob13Bob13 Posts: 1,508 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Thanks for the update. Interesting read. Also emphasizes to me how small a world it can be in terms of collectors.

    My current "Box of 20"

  • Namvet69Namvet69 Posts: 9,118 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I really like ole St. George on his trusty steed. Dragon doesn't have a chance.

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