Hi ChetLemon and welcome to the forums. You can get lots of help and expertise here. If I might be so bold, if you have some other coins from the collection to sell, if you know how to image them and post them here, you could get some help from the gang around these parts. Pictures can really help get a good idea of what coins look like
Coins can be a lot of fun, but as you can tell above, you need to be careful as there are a myriad of traps involved if you are not careful, and all of us want you to have the best experience possible. Good luck.
ChetLemon, Popular opinion is that the dealer was trying to take advantage of you, and if the way you described the transaction is exactly what happened then he probably was. However, as we all know, there are two sides to every story and I would love to hear his. Are you sure that you didn't leave anything out?
Wisdom has been chasing you but, you've always been faster
However, it is unlawful to peddle counterfeit items.
Thanks for the input. An no, I did not alter the coin in any way. Everything I brought to him was still sealed up in individual coin cases - just as they were when we received the collection. I was very up front with him about what I had and what little I knew about it. Between the two times I brought coins in, he spent well over 10 minutes looking at that coin specifically. His only question was if I had cleaned it. Kept going back and forth with it between the magnifying glass and books before making the offers.
@Mizzou said:
ChetLemon, Popular opinion is that the dealer was trying to take advantage of you, and if the way you described the transaction is exactly what happened then he probably was. However, as we all know, there are two sides to every story and I would love to hear his. Are you sure that you didn't leave anything out?
I've left nothing out, other than describing what the weather was those days.
I think part of the this dealer's thinking may be that buying or selling a US counterfeit coin is technically illegal. If he mistakingly sold ChetLemon the same coin and ChetLemon returned the coin at a later date for a full refund, he would be legally entitled to that refund. The coin could have come back from PCGS as "Genuine - Cleaned" and this dealer would have absolutely no recourse with ChetLemon. The dealer rolled the dice and "lost" so to speak. The issue is AUTHENTICITY, and if I had sold the same coin to this dealer, I would be required to give him a full refund. Regardless of whether the seller was a dealer or collector, I think the law is the same. I know as a PNG dealer, this is actually in our Bylaws, and we must refund the buyers money, regardless of the time which may have elapsed (in fact, I know of a 5 figure coin - a 1796 50c - which turned out to be counterfeit and the PNG Dealer had to refund the collector 20 years after the transaction!).
Any comments or feedback?
@ChetLemon said:
Appreciate the continued input, and I have issues with simply handing him $2200 to fulfill a moral obligation.
In the first place, the coin was sold to cover some expenses, so the cash is long gone.
Also, how will I even know that the coin he returns to me is the coin I sold him? I have to take him on his word for that I suppose. I just don't want to risk ending up in small-claims court...
However I am able to continue to bring him business, and have other items that I had planned to bring in and sell that I would be willing to give him a better deal on moving forward to help him recoup some of the loss.
This dealer seems like a young, decent business owner but I don't feel that I should be blindly reversing the sale just because it didn't turn out the way he expected.
*An no, I did not alter the coin in any way. Everything I brought to him was still sealed up in individual coin cases - just as they were when we received the collection. I was very up front with him about what I had and what little I knew about it.
If you have a cell phone you can take pics of the coin in his presence. That way there should be no doubt as to whether the coin was switched. Also take pics without his presence. If you have more coins, it would behoove you to educate yourself as to their value.
After you did your research and realized it was a valuable coin, and the dealer had recommended that it be graded, how come you didn't do that and accepted way below what you found it may be worth?
How come you didn't go to a second dealer or get more opinions?
@ChetLemon said:
I appreciate the feedback thus far. I don't think there needs to be any water boarding of anyone in this situation, I just want some piece of mind that there are no legal obligations on my end. I understand the moral quandary.
We dealers have to eat our mistakes. If that's a windfall for the heirs, that's okay. The fact that it is all a windfall for the seller is a bonus. The fact that the dealer is out a couple grand by his own doing is a testament to his frustration, asking you to make him whole. That's not a legal issue. That's a moral one. In essence, you do not "owe" anyone reimbursement. However, it is unlawful to peddle counterfeit items.
Bingo! I learned from the authenticator who "discovered" and named the defect (Rabbit Ears) that those marks virtually resolved the problem of authenticating low grade '93-S coins at the Certification Service from then on. He told us that when John Hunter joined the staff at a later date and was being trained, John noted the "line in the "T." It's ironic that the mark used by the trainee is now the most well-known diagnostic.
BTW, the authenticator sent a micrograph of the "Rabbit Ears" mark to Playboy Magazine with a short explanation it was never published.
I agree with most of what has been said here. The best advice is just to deep-six the letter and never go back. If your story is factually accurate, you have nothing to worry about.
If you have other coins to sell, I'd recommend getting two or three opinions before selling anything. Most coin dealers are honest and ethical. The ones who aren't pay pennies on the dollar and make a killing. The option of posting potentially valuable photos of other coins here for the board's evaluation is a good idea.
@Mizzou said:
ChetLemon, Popular opinion is that the dealer was trying to take advantage of you, and if the way you described the transaction is exactly what happened then he probably was. However, as we all know, there are two sides to every story and I would love to hear his. Are you sure that you didn't leave anything out?
I've left nothing out, other than describing what the weather was those days.
That was funny. You are going to fit in just fine here.
If the dealer looked at it for more than 10 minutes to decide on what to offer, then he should have known it was an altered coin. That being said, it is purely his mistake for not catching it, and you owe him nothing. Too bad it is already gone, I would have liked to seen pics of it at least.
@Mizzou said:
ChetLemon, Popular opinion is that the dealer was trying to take advantage of you, and if the way you described the transaction is exactly what happened then he probably was. However, as we all know, there are two sides to every story and I would love to hear his. Are you sure that you didn't leave anything out?
I've left nothing out, other than describing what the weather was those days.
That was funny. You are going to fit in just fine here.
So is using "Etiquette" instead of integrity, honesty, questionable act, etc.
This dealer in this thread has been referred to as an expert and a professional. The fact that this coin got by him dosent make him an expert and the fact he asked for his money back dosent make him a professional.
the dealer lynch mob is out again. this guy hit one either bad or incompetent dealer. just keep it as lesson learned and look for qualified dealers-if you got here, you can look them up on the PCGS site.
If the buyer held himself out to the public as a professional in the business of buying rare coins, and you did nothing to purposefully misrepresent the item sold, then you have no obligation - legal or ethical - to return payments.
Note that absent specific state competency and licensing requirements the buyer's "qualifications" for what he does are immaterial.
Do you have any other pieces where that dealer gave you a quote but you haven't sold yet? It might be educational to see what sort of offers you got if you posted on the Buy Sell Trade board here.
@Catbert said:
My conscience would greatly bother me that I unknowingly sold an altered coin and profited from it. Clearly, I’m in the minority.
I share that opinion, however my issue is the unknown. Is the dealer being honest with the grading story? I would have no idea if the coin I "buy back" is the original one or not.
There is no unknown. No professional dealer would -e-v-e-r- buy something from someone who walked in off the street and then ask for a refund later. He's in the business. You're not. Tough for him. The fact that he's asking at all means that he isn't trustworthy.
I'm pretty sure there's a legal principle that says the same thing with lots more words. I can't pull it up offhand. Does that ring a bell with anyone?
@lcoopie said:
After you did your research and realized it was a valuable coin, and the dealer had recommended that it be graded, how come you didn't do that and accepted way below what you found it may be worth?
How come you didn't go to a second dealer or get more opinions?
This was my thought as well. Without knowing the OP and him just being a random person on the internet there's a greater than zero percent chance he did send in for grading, got the bad news, then went back to the coin shop. Not saying that's what happened, just that with the series of events it certainly can't be ruled out. Don't take it personally OP as again you are currently just a random person on the internet. The string of events just seems off to me - I can't fathom why you wouldn't have sent the coin in to be graded.
As told I wouldn't do a thing and I almost always side with small business owners because I know how tough it is running a small business. In this instance the dealer shot himself in the foot and the good news for him is he won't do it again if he learns from it.
Dealer heard the story, saw a chance to make some rips, said the right words, and "ripped" a coin.
Dealer, who is the professional here, who is supposed to have the knowledge and resources, then sends off to grading and, supposedly, gets a non-graded coin back due to "added mintmark".
Dealer didn't get the rip and is now out the money and asks for it back from the customer.
I don't think the dealer acted honestly in this instance. If he had, he would have said something along the lines of "I'll send it off for grading and as long as it comes back in a graded holder, of any level, I will pay you the $2200 we agreed on....if it comes back ungraded, for any reason, I will return the coin to you and not pay anything".
That wouldn't have addressed the potential of a rip, but it would have let there be an out if there was an issue of a highly counterfeit/messed with coin.
Nope, I don't think he deserves anything and I wouldn't do further business with him anyway. You may think he is decent, but from the story, I suspect you will not be happy down the line.
As a dealer once the customer walks out with my money. The coin is mine, good or bad. Im the professional not you. I have a number of fakes, nothing $2200, but still burns. I have them framed on the wall as reminders.
First off, the dealer offered $2200 for a $7,000 coin. There is no way he didn't know it was real before offering anything. The OP identified the quality as XF from the grading chart posted. He offered G money. I think the dealer is such a low-life for offering so little to begin with. People like that would likely switch your original coin with an altered one they had in their safe to offer back as a way to capitalize further. Stay away.
being a dealer, if i make a mistake and buy something bad or mis grade it i feel like that's on me and not the customer. i would never ask for money back
@Catbert said:
My conscience would greatly bother me that I unknowingly sold an altered coin and profited from it. Clearly, I’m in the minority.
Remember, this is a dealer he sold to. If I had sold the coin to another collector, then yes... I would feel moral obligation to undo the deal. But as many have mentioned, the dealer is the EXPERT (or he won't last long). They are expected to know the business and the merchandise; they take the risk and stand to gain the reward. If the coin was good the dealer would have sold and made a pretty nice profit, which he would not be sharing with the original seller.
I see no moral obligation for the OP to return the money. But... certainly do whatever lets you sleep at night.
@Jinx86 said:
As a dealer once the customer walks out with my money. The coin is mine, good or bad. Im the professional not you. I have a number of fakes, nothing $2200, but still burns. I have them framed on the wall as reminders.
@ChetLemon said:
I appreciate the feedback thus far. I don't think there needs to be any water boarding of anyone in this situation, I just want some piece of mind that there are no legal obligations on my end. I understand the moral quandary.
We dealers have to eat our mistakes. If that's a windfall for the heirs, that's okay. The fact that it is all a windfall for the seller is a bonus. The fact that the dealer is out a couple grand by his own doing is a testament to his frustration, asking you to make him whole. That's not a legal issue. That's a moral one. In essence, you do not "owe" anyone reimbursement. However, it is unlawful to peddle counterfeit items.
@ChetLemon said:
I appreciate the feedback thus far. I don't think there needs to be any water boarding of anyone in this situation, I just want some piece of mind that there are no legal obligations on my end. I understand the moral quandary.
We dealers have to eat our mistakes. ..... In essence, you do not "owe" anyone reimbursement. However, it is unlawful to peddle counterfeit items.
Just out of curiosity, have any of those who are dealers here been confronted with the situation where you were paid with counterfeit money which you did not detect and the purchaser did not know was counterfeit? If so what did you learn as to your rights to go back to the person for reimbursement should you have been able to identify the purchaser?
The answer to that question might be instructive to the OP as to what his position might be should the small claims case against him which he fears is in fact filed.
(And yes, one could argue the distinction being made here that an altered coin is not a counterfeit, but the small claims judge may not share that view.)
@ChetLemon said:
I appreciate the feedback thus far. I don't think there needs to be any water boarding of anyone in this situation, I just want some piece of mind that there are no legal obligations on my end. I understand the moral quandary.
We dealers have to eat our mistakes. ..... In essence, you do not "owe" anyone reimbursement. However, it is unlawful to peddle counterfeit items.
Just out of curiosity, have any of those who are dealers here been confronted with the situation where you were paid with counterfeit money which you did not detect and the purchaser did not know was counterfeit? If so what did you learn as to your rights to go back to the person for reimbursement should you have been able to identify the purchaser?
The answer to that question might be instructive to the OP as to what his position might be should the small claims case against him which he fears is in fact filed.
(And yes, one could argue the distinction being made here that an altered coin is not a counterfeit, but the small claims judge may not share that view.)
Yes, I was paid with counterfeit $50 notes to purchase an ounce of gold. Fortunately I caught it before giving up the gold. I called the police. The secret service got involved. The perpetrator was put in jail and died that night while in custody. I didn’t lose out on that deal but was told the next time I should keep at least one note as evidence.
Oddly, I told law enforcement it would be theft on my part to keep something that wasn’t mine to begin with.
I paid spot plus 4% for the gold, in case others think dealers ripped some old widow for it.
In reality like Russ Stringham (RIP) once told me about us dealers and power-screwers: “”It’s a stigma”. And most dealers can’t shake that , thanks to a few scumbags.
The dealer sends it in and it grades and he sells it for $10,000.
Now do you really think he's going to call you back and say 'I underestimated the value of this coin, I feel I have to split the $8000 profit with you'.
Fat chance that's going to happen>
"Gold is money, and nothing else" (JP Morgan, 1912)
"“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)
Don’t go back to that dealer. If he offered 2,200 expecting it to be real he already has ripped you off on all your coins. That being said he certainly has planted a seed of greed in his favor. Run and don’t look back.
@lcoopie said:
After you did your research and realized it was a valuable coin, and the dealer had recommended that it be graded, how come you didn't do that and accepted way below what you found it may be worth?
How come you didn't go to a second dealer or get more opinions?
This was my thought as well. Without knowing the OP and him just being a random person on the internet there's a greater than zero percent chance he did send in for grading, got the bad news, then went back to the coin shop. Not saying that's what happened, just that with the series of events it certainly can't be ruled out. Don't take it personally OP as again you are currently just a random person on the internet. The string of events just seems off to me - I can't fathom why you wouldn't have sent the coin in to be graded.
As told I wouldn't do a thing and I almost always side with small business owners because I know how tough it is running a small business. In this instance the dealer shot himself in the foot and the good news for him is he won't do it again if he learns from it.
Exactly! Typically, in these types of situations a non-collector sees the inflated asking prices posted online and immediately assumes that their coin is worth many multiples of what it is actually worth.
If the OP saw the values online of similar looking coins, why would they accept an offer that is thousands less when they could easily have it graded and see if its worth much more than the dealer's offer?
To any dealers on here, how often do you have a person happy to give up the possibility of making thousands more on their inherited collection of coins? Especially after they are educated on grading and the possible value after grading as it sounds like happened here. In my 20+ years of buying/selling coins, it does not happen!
But, in the end, it is the dealer's final call on making an offer. The dealer could have easily declined to buy the coin, but instead decided to gamble...
@cnncoins said:
I think part of the this dealer's thinking may be that buying or selling a US counterfeit coin is technically illegal. If he mistakingly sold ChetLemon the same coin and ChetLemon returned the coin at a later date for a full refund, he would be legally entitled to that refund. The coin could have come back from PCGS as "Genuine - Cleaned" and this dealer would have absolutely no recourse with ChetLemon. The dealer rolled the dice and "lost" so to speak. The issue is AUTHENTICITY, and if I had sold the same coin to this dealer, I would be required to give him a full refund. Regardless of whether the seller was a dealer or collector, I think the law is the same. I know as a PNG dealer, this is actually in our Bylaws, and we must refund the buyers money, regardless of the time which may have elapsed (in fact, I know of a 5 figure coin - a 1796 50c - which turned out to be counterfeit and the PNG Dealer had to refund the collector 20 years after the transaction!).
Any comments or feedback?
I believe the difference is selling something with the intention to mislead.
You being a "dealer/professional" are held to a higher standard and are therefor assumed to be misleading a collector when selling such a coin. The OP who clearly states his inexperience is not held to the same standard and would not be required to return anything.
I can understand the skepticism towards my side, and I appreciate the spectrum of opinions here. Without being able to prove it I suppose I can only reiterate that I am not a coin collector by any means; I inherited a small collection, had no interest in maintaining a collection, needed cash, and (after basic research) took a few coins to the closest dealer to see what I could get for them. I went back to him with the Morgan because I trusted his expertise and had intended on eventually filtering more of the collection through him at some point. In retrospect, I should have sent the coin in myself for grading to avoid all this, but that was not a priority at that time. From my perspective, this dealer is a nice guy and the last thing I want is someone thinking I was trying to rip them off. I have reached out to him explaining my concerns and my apprehension with simply paying him back. I guess PCGS determined the mint mark was soldered on. He admits that this was his error, and it's something he should have noticed during the 2 opportunities he took to look at it before buying it. No doubt a learning experience for him, but still the general consensus here that this is "his loss" does not sit well with me. Hopefully we can come to an ethical compromise.
@ChetLemon said:
I appreciate the feedback thus far. I don't think there needs to be any water boarding of anyone in this situation, I just want some piece of mind that there are no legal obligations on my end. I understand the moral quandary.
We dealers have to eat our mistakes. If that's a windfall for the heirs, that's okay. The fact that it is all a windfall for the seller is a bonus. The fact that the dealer is out a couple grand by his own doing is a testament to his frustration, asking you to make him whole. That's not a legal issue. That's a moral one. In essence, you do not "owe" anyone reimbursement. However, it is unlawful to peddle counterfeit items.
@USMarine6 said:
This dealer in this thread has been referred to as an expert and a professional. The fact that this coin got by him dosent make him an expert and the fact he asked for his money back dosent make him a professional.
Not all lawyers, doctors and Indian chiefs are of equal competence despite what their diplomas/degrees say. If they were, there would never be a need for a second opinion. Not all coin dealers are expert graders or knowledgeable about every type of coin. If they were, they wouldn't need the TPGs AND they'd never get cherry-picked. However, in small claims court this dealer would be held to the higher standard.
@ChetLemon said:
I can understand the skepticism towards my side, and I appreciate the spectrum of opinions here. Without being able to prove it I suppose I can only reiterate that I am not a coin collector by any means; I inherited a small collection, had no interest in maintaining a collection, needed cash, and (after basic research) took a few coins to the closest dealer to see what I could get for them. I went back to him with the Morgan because I trusted his expertise and had intended on eventually filtering more of the collection through him at some point. In retrospect, I should have sent the coin in myself for grading to avoid all this, but that was not a priority at that time. From my perspective, this dealer is a nice guy and the last thing I want is someone thinking I was trying to rip them off. I have reached out to him explaining my concerns and my apprehension with simply paying him back. I guess PCGS determined the mint mark was soldered on. He admits that this was his error, and it's something he should have noticed during the 2 opportunities he took to look at it before buying it. No doubt a learning experience for him, but still the general consensus here that this is "his loss" does not sit well with me. Hopefully we can come to an ethical compromise.
From the limited info posted here, it would seem that the majority feel that you have no obligation to provide the dealer with any financial relief. Since we don't have pics and you don't know that the coin he submitted was even the one you sold to him, it's hard to surmise anything beyond that. In the end, it's you that has to live with your conscience so you should do what makes you feel the most at ease.
This is an incredibly complicated situation. I think that ultimately you have no legal obligation to give the money back but I am not a lawyer so my opinion holds little water. My reasoning is a bit different than any of the others listed. Almost invariably I would have customers submit the coin for grading (through us or whomever). Why? It eliminates the need to charge the customer a "risk premium" on the transaction. If the coin is slabbed, as a reseller you don't have to worry that the coin will be graded unfavorably or even as counterfeit. In this case $2200 is reasonable money for a VF Details coin with a problem. Remember the line between VF35 and XF40 is quite thin and a VF35 cleaned becomes a VF Details cleaned. Clearly without seeing the coin I can't judge but an argument could be made that unslabbed VF/EF $2200 is not as out of line for the coin raw. Would they have been better served suggesting getting the coin slabbed first, yes. Is it something the collector should have looked into when they found out they had a valuable coin, probably. All that being said, the collector was charged a risk premium and therefore the risk of problems was moved from the collector to the dealer. Its like the 1% we pay PCGS on crosses and super expensive coins. We pay them the percentage and they take the responsibility for the coin under their guarantee.
Comments
Hi ChetLemon and welcome to the forums. You can get lots of help and expertise here. If I might be so bold, if you have some other coins from the collection to sell, if you know how to image them and post them here, you could get some help from the gang around these parts. Pictures can really help get a good idea of what coins look like
Coins can be a lot of fun, but as you can tell above, you need to be careful as there are a myriad of traps involved if you are not careful, and all of us want you to have the best experience possible. Good luck.
ChetLemon, Popular opinion is that the dealer was trying to take advantage of you, and if the way you described the transaction is exactly what happened then he probably was. However, as we all know, there are two sides to every story and I would love to hear his. Are you sure that you didn't leave anything out?
Wisdom has been chasing you but, you've always been faster
Thanks for the input. An no, I did not alter the coin in any way. Everything I brought to him was still sealed up in individual coin cases - just as they were when we received the collection. I was very up front with him about what I had and what little I knew about it. Between the two times I brought coins in, he spent well over 10 minutes looking at that coin specifically. His only question was if I had cleaned it. Kept going back and forth with it between the magnifying glass and books before making the offers.
I've left nothing out, other than describing what the weather was those days.
I think part of the this dealer's thinking may be that buying or selling a US counterfeit coin is technically illegal. If he mistakingly sold ChetLemon the same coin and ChetLemon returned the coin at a later date for a full refund, he would be legally entitled to that refund. The coin could have come back from PCGS as "Genuine - Cleaned" and this dealer would have absolutely no recourse with ChetLemon. The dealer rolled the dice and "lost" so to speak. The issue is AUTHENTICITY, and if I had sold the same coin to this dealer, I would be required to give him a full refund. Regardless of whether the seller was a dealer or collector, I think the law is the same. I know as a PNG dealer, this is actually in our Bylaws, and we must refund the buyers money, regardless of the time which may have elapsed (in fact, I know of a 5 figure coin - a 1796 50c - which turned out to be counterfeit and the PNG Dealer had to refund the collector 20 years after the transaction!).
Any comments or feedback?
If you have a cell phone you can take pics of the coin in his presence. That way there should be no doubt as to whether the coin was switched. Also take pics without his presence. If you have more coins, it would behoove you to educate yourself as to their value.
After you did your research and realized it was a valuable coin, and the dealer had recommended that it be graded, how come you didn't do that and accepted way below what you found it may be worth?
How come you didn't go to a second dealer or get more opinions?
IMO an added/altered MM is not a counterfeit.
I’m probably the only one who finds this story fishy.
@asheland said: "Don't forget the rabbit ears."
Bingo! I learned from the authenticator who "discovered" and named the defect (Rabbit Ears) that those marks virtually resolved the problem of authenticating low grade '93-S coins at the Certification Service from then on. He told us that when John Hunter joined the staff at a later date and was being trained, John noted the "line in the "T." It's ironic that the mark used by the trainee is now the most well-known diagnostic.
BTW, the authenticator sent a micrograph of the "Rabbit Ears" mark to Playboy Magazine with a short explanation it was never published.
My bad...there is absolutely a difference between a counterfeit and an altered genuine coin.
I wouldn't refund anything.
If I was a dealer and I got stung like that, I would never ask the client for a refund.
I find that request ridiculous.
"“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)
"I only golf on days that end in 'Y'" (DE59)
I agree with most of what has been said here. The best advice is just to deep-six the letter and never go back. If your story is factually accurate, you have nothing to worry about.
If you have other coins to sell, I'd recommend getting two or three opinions before selling anything. Most coin dealers are honest and ethical. The ones who aren't pay pennies on the dollar and make a killing. The option of posting potentially valuable photos of other coins here for the board's evaluation is a good idea.
That was funny. You are going to fit in just fine here.
If the dealer looked at it for more than 10 minutes to decide on what to offer, then he should have known it was an altered coin. That being said, it is purely his mistake for not catching it, and you owe him nothing. Too bad it is already gone, I would have liked to seen pics of it at least.
So is using "Etiquette" instead of integrity, honesty, questionable act, etc.
This dealer in this thread has been referred to as an expert and a professional. The fact that this coin got by him dosent make him an expert and the fact he asked for his money back dosent make him a professional.
the dealer lynch mob is out again. this guy hit one either bad or incompetent dealer. just keep it as lesson learned and look for qualified dealers-if you got here, you can look them up on the PCGS site.
shame on the dealer tho.
If the buyer held himself out to the public as a professional in the business of buying rare coins, and you did nothing to purposefully misrepresent the item sold, then you have no obligation - legal or ethical - to return payments.
Note that absent specific state competency and licensing requirements the buyer's "qualifications" for what he does are immaterial.
My conscience would greatly bother me that I unknowingly sold an altered coin and profited from it. Clearly, I’m in the minority.
"Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
Do you have any other pieces where that dealer gave you a quote but you haven't sold yet? It might be educational to see what sort of offers you got if you posted on the Buy Sell Trade board here.
I share that opinion, however my issue is the unknown. Is the dealer being honest with the grading story? I would have no idea if the coin I "buy back" is the original one or not.
There is no unknown. No professional dealer would -e-v-e-r- buy something from someone who walked in off the street and then ask for a refund later. He's in the business. You're not. Tough for him. The fact that he's asking at all means that he isn't trustworthy.
I'm pretty sure there's a legal principle that says the same thing with lots more words. I can't pull it up offhand. Does that ring a bell with anyone?
This was my thought as well. Without knowing the OP and him just being a random person on the internet there's a greater than zero percent chance he did send in for grading, got the bad news, then went back to the coin shop. Not saying that's what happened, just that with the series of events it certainly can't be ruled out. Don't take it personally OP as again you are currently just a random person on the internet. The string of events just seems off to me - I can't fathom why you wouldn't have sent the coin in to be graded.
As told I wouldn't do a thing and I almost always side with small business owners because I know how tough it is running a small business. In this instance the dealer shot himself in the foot and the good news for him is he won't do it again if he learns from it.
Way I see it is this....
Dealer heard the story, saw a chance to make some rips, said the right words, and "ripped" a coin.
Dealer, who is the professional here, who is supposed to have the knowledge and resources, then sends off to grading and, supposedly, gets a non-graded coin back due to "added mintmark".
Dealer didn't get the rip and is now out the money and asks for it back from the customer.
I don't think the dealer acted honestly in this instance. If he had, he would have said something along the lines of "I'll send it off for grading and as long as it comes back in a graded holder, of any level, I will pay you the $2200 we agreed on....if it comes back ungraded, for any reason, I will return the coin to you and not pay anything".
That wouldn't have addressed the potential of a rip, but it would have let there be an out if there was an issue of a highly counterfeit/messed with coin.
Nope, I don't think he deserves anything and I wouldn't do further business with him anyway. You may think he is decent, but from the story, I suspect you will not be happy down the line.
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
As a dealer once the customer walks out with my money. The coin is mine, good or bad. Im the professional not you. I have a number of fakes, nothing $2200, but still burns. I have them framed on the wall as reminders.
First off, the dealer offered $2200 for a $7,000 coin. There is no way he didn't know it was real before offering anything. The OP identified the quality as XF from the grading chart posted. He offered G money. I think the dealer is such a low-life for offering so little to begin with. People like that would likely switch your original coin with an altered one they had in their safe to offer back as a way to capitalize further. Stay away.
being a dealer, if i make a mistake and buy something bad or mis grade it i feel like that's on me and not the customer. i would never ask for money back
HAPPY COLLECTING
Remember, this is a dealer he sold to. If I had sold the coin to another collector, then yes... I would feel moral obligation to undo the deal. But as many have mentioned, the dealer is the EXPERT (or he won't last long). They are expected to know the business and the merchandise; they take the risk and stand to gain the reward. If the coin was good the dealer would have sold and made a pretty nice profit, which he would not be sharing with the original seller.
I see no moral obligation for the OP to return the money. But... certainly do whatever lets you sleep at night.
All part of the education.
Purchased a large collection > @BAJJERFAN said:
I can accept it is not counterfeit, and that it's altered. The fraudulence in this field is pervasive and evident.
To the OP if the chance of getting more money why not send them into grade/authenticate and what were the other coins and prices sold to dealer.
You sold the dealer other stuff. He was happy with it.
You sold the dealer the 93-S. He was happy to buy it at the agreed to price.
You told the dealer you were a novice. He probably made out quite well on the other stuff you sold him.
You trusted the dealer to be fair and honest with you.
HMMMM.......
Something is rotten in the State of Denmark.
A DEAL IS A DEAL. He has to assume the risk.
I certainly hope the dealer is not alluding to the fact that you knowingly passed that coin to him.
Do what the others said. Stay away. You did nothing wrong.
Pete
Just out of curiosity, have any of those who are dealers here been confronted with the situation where you were paid with counterfeit money which you did not detect and the purchaser did not know was counterfeit? If so what did you learn as to your rights to go back to the person for reimbursement should you have been able to identify the purchaser?
The answer to that question might be instructive to the OP as to what his position might be should the small claims case against him which he fears is in fact filed.
(And yes, one could argue the distinction being made here that an altered coin is not a counterfeit, but the small claims judge may not share that view.)
His low ball offer is proof that he expected to make a killing.
He couldn't profit so he wants his money back.
I say no chance.
BHNC #203
_"_A few months later in mid-December, I had decided that I was ready to part with the Morgan. I never did explore getting it graded."
What a coincidence, that's about how long it takes to get a coin back from being graded.
Wisdom has been chasing you but, you've always been faster
Yes, I was paid with counterfeit $50 notes to purchase an ounce of gold. Fortunately I caught it before giving up the gold. I called the police. The secret service got involved. The perpetrator was put in jail and died that night while in custody. I didn’t lose out on that deal but was told the next time I should keep at least one note as evidence.
Oddly, I told law enforcement it would be theft on my part to keep something that wasn’t mine to begin with.
I paid spot plus 4% for the gold, in case others think dealers ripped some old widow for it.
In reality like Russ Stringham (RIP) once told me about us dealers and power-screwers: “”It’s a stigma”. And most dealers can’t shake that , thanks to a few scumbags.
Dupe
Look at it from the other side.
Say he buys the coin from you at $2000.
The dealer sends it in and it grades and he sells it for $10,000.
Now do you really think he's going to call you back and say 'I underestimated the value of this coin, I feel I have to split the $8000 profit with you'.
Fat chance that's going to happen>
"“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)
"I only golf on days that end in 'Y'" (DE59)
Since the OP just showed up here the story has to be taken with a large grain of salt.
Don’t go back to that dealer. If he offered 2,200 expecting it to be real he already has ripped you off on all your coins. That being said he certainly has planted a seed of greed in his favor. Run and don’t look back.
Best place to buy !
Bronze Associate member
Exactly! Typically, in these types of situations a non-collector sees the inflated asking prices posted online and immediately assumes that their coin is worth many multiples of what it is actually worth.
If the OP saw the values online of similar looking coins, why would they accept an offer that is thousands less when they could easily have it graded and see if its worth much more than the dealer's offer?
To any dealers on here, how often do you have a person happy to give up the possibility of making thousands more on their inherited collection of coins? Especially after they are educated on grading and the possible value after grading as it sounds like happened here. In my 20+ years of buying/selling coins, it does not happen!
But, in the end, it is the dealer's final call on making an offer. The dealer could have easily declined to buy the coin, but instead decided to gamble...
Strange situation...
I believe the difference is selling something with the intention to mislead.
You being a "dealer/professional" are held to a higher standard and are therefor assumed to be misleading a collector when selling such a coin. The OP who clearly states his inexperience is not held to the same standard and would not be required to return anything.
I can understand the skepticism towards my side, and I appreciate the spectrum of opinions here. Without being able to prove it I suppose I can only reiterate that I am not a coin collector by any means; I inherited a small collection, had no interest in maintaining a collection, needed cash, and (after basic research) took a few coins to the closest dealer to see what I could get for them. I went back to him with the Morgan because I trusted his expertise and had intended on eventually filtering more of the collection through him at some point. In retrospect, I should have sent the coin in myself for grading to avoid all this, but that was not a priority at that time. From my perspective, this dealer is a nice guy and the last thing I want is someone thinking I was trying to rip them off. I have reached out to him explaining my concerns and my apprehension with simply paying him back. I guess PCGS determined the mint mark was soldered on. He admits that this was his error, and it's something he should have noticed during the 2 opportunities he took to look at it before buying it. No doubt a learning experience for him, but still the general consensus here that this is "his loss" does not sit well with me. Hopefully we can come to an ethical compromise.
Truer words were never posted.
Not all lawyers, doctors and Indian chiefs are of equal competence despite what their diplomas/degrees say. If they were, there would never be a need for a second opinion. Not all coin dealers are expert graders or knowledgeable about every type of coin. If they were, they wouldn't need the TPGs AND they'd never get cherry-picked. However, in small claims court this dealer would be held to the higher standard.
From the limited info posted here, it would seem that the majority feel that you have no obligation to provide the dealer with any financial relief. Since we don't have pics and you don't know that the coin he submitted was even the one you sold to him, it's hard to surmise anything beyond that. In the end, it's you that has to live with your conscience so you should do what makes you feel the most at ease.
This is an incredibly complicated situation. I think that ultimately you have no legal obligation to give the money back but I am not a lawyer so my opinion holds little water. My reasoning is a bit different than any of the others listed. Almost invariably I would have customers submit the coin for grading (through us or whomever). Why? It eliminates the need to charge the customer a "risk premium" on the transaction. If the coin is slabbed, as a reseller you don't have to worry that the coin will be graded unfavorably or even as counterfeit. In this case $2200 is reasonable money for a VF Details coin with a problem. Remember the line between VF35 and XF40 is quite thin and a VF35 cleaned becomes a VF Details cleaned. Clearly without seeing the coin I can't judge but an argument could be made that unslabbed VF/EF $2200 is not as out of line for the coin raw. Would they have been better served suggesting getting the coin slabbed first, yes. Is it something the collector should have looked into when they found out they had a valuable coin, probably. All that being said, the collector was charged a risk premium and therefore the risk of problems was moved from the collector to the dealer. Its like the 1% we pay PCGS on crosses and super expensive coins. We pay them the percentage and they take the responsibility for the coin under their guarantee.
Tuition gets paid on both sides of the counter.