How to Tell Clients They Can't Cherry Pick Dealer Stock at Greysheet Prices
Coinosaurus
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You see it every show. People walk up to a table with a Greysheet and expect to buy the most PQ examples at that price. The usual dealer responses:
"I'll buy all you have to sell me at that price." "The auction prices are substantially higher." "I paid 2x Greysheet for this one." Etc.
Are there any better responses to educate consumers as to the reality of the market?
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Readily visible sales prices?
A heavy, wooden and knotted stick to whack em where the good Lord split em.
The real reality is that cash is king at coin shows.
I always found the "I'll buy all you have at ..." to be an annoying response. There was one time when I actually did have similar coins with me and immediately offered them to the dealer. He quickly found reasons why they weren't good enough for him to pay the claimed price. No transaction took place.
Politely pass and attempt to inform them, politely, that you have more in the pieces than that. They are your "Clients" according to your query. How did you let them get this way? Perhaps you meant to say "potential customers" Either way you are in a rough business, best of luck. Sol
No response is adequate to folks who don't understand how the market works, they must find out for themselves.
Best, SH
What about raw coins. Let’s face it when you have a PCGS gradable MS62 Coin and it is not in a holder, don’t expect to get paid for a none existing holder. Plus your claiming to have MS but we all know it’s subjective. Clear marked prices would help tremendously. The problem is the price isen’t the price. Games are played at shows, consumers go home to find out they paid top dollar on a coin that has a declining price. Dealers use shows to unload excess inventory but want top dollar. If it’s in the display to move sell at a price that you would unload it for. Games turn off consumers.
Best place to buy !
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Perhaps even worse than that is when you have a box of 120- 1970s proof sets. They're 3 dollars each. Someone pulls up a chair and unboxes and looks at EVERY one of them before they buy one (Yes, it happened to me). Move along folks, nothing to see here.....
You could just refer them to the CPG, CW, or TPG PG.
At shows I have told them: “so what thats wholesale, go find one, maybe you should go open a coin shop, do you have one to sell me that, and with another dealer at a show telling me I wanted too much wanting to buy at sheet (to flip to the guy standing next to him) I yelled at him “like heck it is - get away from my table and don’t ever come back.” Everybody in the room heard. Many applauded. The coin was priced about 30pct above bid, a very fair price. Once their BS starts it’s time for them to leave.
If your going to be in the business you need to be tough and stick to your guns to make target ROI. Its not necessarily that those critters are stupid or ignorant they are simply there to rip you.
I remember the first show I set up at some guy came up, opened up a blue sheet, and like some sniveling little twerp tried to educate me like to buy a coin I had at that. I think I replied “do u have one sell at that.”
On eBay you can just say “unless it’s BIN/MO it’s already at our best price.”
Dealers don't price coins because the price goes up 50 to 200% when anyone asks what it costs.
If the prices aren't on the coins the best bet is just ask what they have near greysheet and cherry pick those. Then you can try the coins around double greysheet or triple.
It's always hard to do business with someone who isn't willing to commit to an approximate price. I don't mind if they won't come down but I sure mind watching the price go up as he sizes me up.
...And how come dealers never have dreck at half of greysheet?
Now there's some cherry pickin' fun.
I would visibly price the "cherries" and leave the rest. Then when the greysheet comes out simply say it is PQ for the grade and thus the price..
CAC does help sometimes..
Two people usually won't agree on the price of a coin and the dealer usually has the advantage of better knowing the market and always has the advantage of knowing what he paid.
Buyers are just looking for needed coin he values higher than the dealer. Dealers are buying coins that are underpriced relative to his clientele and wholesale buyers.
Sometimes it works, sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.
First, it is poor education by the Grey Sheet people. It is a wholesale rag. The people who subscribe to it need to know that.
Simply laugh and say, Grey Sheet? That's wholesale, can you sell me coins for that? I am a buyer at that price, what do you have?
that's just a guide and this is better or much better than the avg.
At FUN I sold a bunch of nicer non-CAC coins and most were sold at 10-15% back of bid. No eBay and PayPal fees or even worse, Heritage fees, and I insisting on getting paid in cash. Fair deal in this market. No trouble at all selling CAC coins at bid but they go for so much more at auction.
Whoa whoa hold on now lets not get crazy .
This business has changed so much in the last 10 years, I think grey sheet worked in the 60's and 70's even the 80's but now there are many ways to get "prices" and following the market trends is a lot easier.
I think what grey sheet does do is allow a conversation to take place about a coin or group of coins. it is a third party in the transaction..It can act as an authority and keep the conversation civil. With some however is makes things worse....
Maybe walking around looking at tables full of coins with no prices confuses them. Maybe dealers need to declare one way or the other how they feel about GS prices on a sign at their table? For the sake of consistency If you don't want buyers making offers based on GS then you shouldn't be allowed to club sellers over the head with those same prices if they are trying to sell.
Imagine how stupid trying to use the BST forum would be if there were no asking prices for posted items?
A simple "that's too cheap" could work.
I think a knowledgeable buyer may be able to respect that. I might add "read the directions" to the guy looking to cherry pick.
I’m not a dealer but many years ago a collector wanted to buy one of my colonials. It was a duplicate and I didn’t mind parting with it. I quoted him a price and he started talking my coin down after which he came back with the “can you do better” line. I told him sure, it is now $500 more, which is better for me!! That ended that foolishness!!
If a potential client is too far away in their expectation of price then I merely let them know what I need and that I believe we may be too far away to complete a satisfactory transaction. Something like "I'm sorry, but I need $X for this and I don't know that you are comfortable at that level" works for me. I'm also happy to discuss how $X came about and why it makes sense. Regardless, I see no need whatsoever for snarky comments, a patronizing attitude or insults. It should all be fun and, hopefully, educational.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
Mustard squirts.
Was this at the Boeing show in Seattle? This exact scenario played out there a few weeks ago. Some jerk was completely rude about the levels he would pay and the dealer (justifiably) let him have it. If that was you, good for you. If it wasn't, this apparently happens more than you'd think.
It happens a lot. And I'm with TomB that most of the time it's unnecessary.
If you say you need triple greysheet then the guy should just walk away. I'd save the snarky comments for when the wouldbe buyer offers a fraction of my price. It's hardly unusual for buyers and sellers to be far apart. This is why one owns the coin and the other doesn't.
Don't want to put up with offers ? Price your stock . If 90% of the amateurs , vest pocket guys and dealers on the BST can manage it whats the problem?
examples of posted prices.... houses , cars , gallons of milk , shoes , pants shirts dresses, couches , bottles of wine , packs of smokes , baseball cards , newspapers . Also , I got a property tax bill the other day they didn't write "make an offer" on it , just a number and a due date , they were were pretty firm about both numbers .
Examples of no prices .... coin shows , old time auto parts stores where it takes 45 minutes to buy an oil filter because they have to look in 3 different books then get out a calculator first , and I'm drawing a blank after that
In those old timey parts stores it was all a smokescreen for either , how much can I soak this fool ( is he jobber -10% because hes in every day or retail +40% because he will never come back )or I'm too lazy to mark prices on all these things , I'll just do it on the one item I'm about to sell.
Other things in common between coin shows and old timey auto parts stores . You are the only customer and they completely ignore you for 10 minutes even though they are not doing anything. Also , some idiot friend will stand there and babble with the person behind the counter while you are waiting to buy something and waste your time for no reason.
Before I was in numismatics, I worked in the concert business. When I first started, the guy I worked for said something that I've never forgotten: "No is the strongest word in any negotiation."
What is now proved was once only imagined. - William Blake
Several people have mentioned posted prices. That helps, of course, but it isn't a cure all. People assume prices are negotiable - and they often are. I receive emailed offers all the time on Buy It Now lots on eBay that have NO BEST OFFER option. Sometimes they are legitimate and I oblige. Other times it is someone trying to buy sub-wholesale and hoping I'm dumb enough to accept.
I get emailed offers all the time offering to buy my no problem XF Morgan Dollars for $15 or $16 which is ridiculously back of the bulk price even in the current environment for widgets. They are just trying, knowing they can flip them wholesale for $20-ish with a phone call. Those people aren't worth my time.
Just today, I got a request for a better price on a Pilgrim commem I had listed at $165 (no Best Offer). He asked if I could do better as some unnamed other dealer had one at $140. I told him I paid $138 (true) but would take $158 for it with shipping. He accepted. Deal done, everyone happy. For the record, it's an NGC slab. Greysheet is $165
My pet peeve is when someone asks for my BEST price and then counter offers. I usually explain that BEST is BEST not a place to begin negotiations. If they still don’t get the idea I usually tell them they may be able to do better on another coin, most likely at another table.
A: The year they spend more on their library than their coin collection.
A numismatist is judged more on the content of their library than the content of their cabinet.
... "the dealer always has the advantage of knowing what he paid."
Without being snarky, SO WHAT? If a dealer is buried in a coin, paid too much, market has plummeted, that means ABSOLUTELY NOTHING as the only salient point is what is the value of the coin NOW. If the dealer was able to purchase a box of $20 Gold coins, at $50 each, and the dealer's normal mark up is 100%, do you really think they would be sitting out for sale for $100 each? So no break on the great purchase deals, but smack down hard bargain on the stuff the dealer is in too deep and will hold forever. Maybe it is time to lose money on some stuff and say good bye to the losers.
... "Offer a fraction of the price... " Are there any other kinds? Think for a moment. If the asking price is $250,000 and I offer $249,000, that is still a fraction. Large fraction, but still a fraction. Just like saying we are selling for pennies (cents) on the dollar. 99 pennies (cents) price of something WAY overpriced to begin with is still "Pennies on the dollar".
I will never understand the logic of coins where a price cannot be marked. Oh No MR. Wizard, the price might go up. Sooo, it was OK that you were asking $50 and could not sell it, but now, based on a discolored piece of paper, someone says it is now worth $60, so now you ask $60 and cannot sell it, while the day before, you would be happy at $50. ?? Logic Fail.
Either keep up and change your prices, or be happy that you finally unloaded that coin as the marked price, even though the "price" may have gone up and maybe mark bulk silver / gold / platinum as x% of spot,
Do you think that when the price at the gas pump changes, somebody scuba dives into the storage tanks and marks the molecules by "what the dealer has in it" and only pumps cheaper molecules?
When I set up at a show, everything I bring is either marked with a price or marked in a box (Anything in this box is $5 or whatever). If someone snakes me for something that sky rocketed in price that I missed, good for them, as they will spend more time looking at my stuff for more, and I have cash in my pocket and made the $$ I set out to make.
Most dealer inventory changes hands relatively quickly and the price paid (at least on expensive stuff) tends to be correlated to its value.
Otherwise the dealer will tend to not be able to stay in business.
I am the guy who'll snag a few $7 items from your $5 box but mostly I'll be looking for things that will be worth $200 in a few years from the same box.
There are two sides to every coin. On one side, we see some people trying to buy monster, high-end material for wholesale Bid, causing frustration for the sellers. On the other side, we see certain sellers charging monster, high-end prices for coins that are neither monsters nor high-end, resulting in frustration for the prospective buyers. Either way, keep your cool and move on to the next coin.
As a collector I care deeply about a dealer buried in a coin. Especially when hes telling me the slabbed MS 65 morgan I'm trying to sell him is really an AU .
Of course not making a 100% profit on something isn't actually the definition of "buried" that most of us would use. I think thats what they actually mean though when I'm looking at the exhibits in their traveling coin museums .
No dealer has ever used the "I'll take all you have at that price" to me (so I must be a sucker and not dicker low enough
) but if one did, I would laugh in his/her face and tell them how stupid that is to say. I truly believe that is just a really stupid thing to say.
If you don't like the price someone is offering, just tell them straight out "sorry, it is mine to sell and THIS is the price I am asking". To me, that is honest and simple. Trying to play word games or anything else just makes that person reek.
I feel the same way about customers as well...if they are trying the "this is wrong, this is wrong, and it has these problems...give me a lower price" game.
If you are going to nitpick a coin, then just make the offer based on how you see the value. Skip the stories. I've had 1 or 2 dealers do that to me (NGC MS66 Ikes called AU53/55 by one dealer). I withdrew my offer to sell and have never offered them anything (other than 90% melt bullion) since.
The internet has been a big equalizer for buying and selling and very few coins are "unique" to most of us at the levels we deal in.
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
Haven't found a dealer yet willing to buy at greysheet bid thus I don't pay over greysheet bid. It's a buyers market out there, easy to find coins at bid. Money talks. If they don't like your offer move on to the next one.
The whole worlds off its rocker, buy Gold™.
BOOMIN!™
Wooooha! Did someone just say it's officially "TACO™" Tuesday????
Not all dealers at all "shows" are there to sell coins.
A lot of perspectives to think about here
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Bad transactions with : nobody to date
Depends on what it is. Widgets? Definitely not. You can't even sell widgets at greysheet bid. Premium coins? Absolutely. As you can probably get over ask on them.
All the collectors here really should try dealing for a year, they might think differently. Margins on coins are pretty slim, so much so that people scoff. If I buy a 65 Morgan for $40 and sell it for $50, that is HUGE...and also not terribly profitable once time and expenses are taken into account. And most of the time, I'm going to end up at $45 on the coin if I want to move it quickly. And buying bulk wheat cents at 2.5 to 3 cents each so I can wait until I have a 35 pound bag and sell at 3.5 cents each is back-breaking and thankless, especially if I have to pop them all out of the album first. Hard to make 10% on 90%. And for most dealers (who aren't Legends), those widgets are the bulk of your business. People don't walk in with a set of Proof Morgans more than once in 10 years.
When you see coins going across the tables in both directions, you've probably located the dealer to trade with.
“tire kickers “
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
Let's see, if I'm a dealer and I buy at Greysheet bid, and sell at Greysheet bid, then how do I pay my expenses and stay in business?
Secondly, it is easy to find coins at bid. It is much more difficult to find high quality coins at bid.
An authorized PCGS dealer, and a contributor to the Red Book.
Rhedden nailed it! This has been true for the past 30 years and will likely continue. "There are two sides to every coin. On one side, we see some people trying to buy monster, high-end material for wholesale Bid, causing frustration for the sellers. On the other side, we see certain sellers charging monster, high-end prices for coins that are neither monsters nor high-end, resulting in frustration for the prospective buyers. Either way, keep your cool and move on to the next coin."
TomB gave some great advice. " I see no need whatsoever for snarky comments, a patronizing attitude or insults. It should all be fun and, hopefully, educational."
You are a coin "dealer" so you should now this.
You are the dealer, he is the collector. It is a good bet that your goals are different.
PS Imagine what a picture post card dealer goes through. Fifty + folks each show thumbing everything in his stock, mixing it all up, and spending a few bucks! LOL.
Perhaps even worse than that is when you have a box of 120- 1970s proof sets. They're 3 dollars each. Someone pulls up a chair and unboxes and looks at EVERY one of them before they buy one (Yes, it happened to me). Move along folks, nothing to see here.....
The collector should make every purchase a careful one. Whether the coin is $3,$30,$300,$3,000 should not matter. I probably would have taken twice as long as the "someone" since I look at ALL
coins i'm considering to buy under magnification.
At the ANA show in Denver (1996) I was told by a dealer to "move along" because he spotted my Bausch & Lomb that I was wearing around my neck.
Whoever is careless with the truth in small matters cannot be trusted with important matters.
You are all technically correct about the $3 proof sets. However, that is also the reason that when you go to shows now you don't find boxes of $3 proof sets. A lot of stores don't stock $3 proof sets either. It's not worth it for a dealer to spend a lot of time entertaining a customer who will spend hours for $3.
Again, I'm not saying that you as the customer don't have the right to carefully vet every purchase. What I'm saying is that such activity eliminates dealer incentive to stock such items. One of the local coin stores - now closed - was owned by a man worth about $40 million. He didn't care about profit. I would stop in every Wednesday night and there were 5 or 6 people looking through 90% buckets, wheat cents, foreign coin bins, etc. They would stay for an hour or more and had access to all the cases blocked and would end up spending $20 or less each on most occasions. While entertaining such customers, the staff is not doing appraisals, sorting and pricing coins themselves, listing on the internet, etc.
Sports cards have VCP online, which will tell you auction prices paid for cards in a given grade. Seems like the coin community would be better off if it had a VCP type website (or maybe it does, but I'm not aware of it).
Good thread
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When I first started collecting, there was a coin dealer in Sacramento who ran his shop behind his LAUNDRY.
No, it wasn't Gus Fring.
But... he was a Chinese guy and displayed all his coins upside down which , I believe, is a customary Asian practice as that's where the denomination shows.
ANYHOW.... I suspected that since he had been in bizz for centuries, he would have great stuff.
But he wouldn't show any of that sort to me. "Newbie" you understand.
Sooo....one day on the way to his shop, I told the wife I was gonna buy SOMETHING even though all he displayed was mostly foreign bulk coins.
And I did.
HOOO--wweeeee..... did things change. He went in the laundry and came back with a GEM Pan-Pac half dollar and he priced it at about HALF of grey sheet.
SNAG !!
Then he commenced to ask me if I would like ....more.
Oh you bet I would!
So the next week we went back to glean through the treasure chest.....and.... he was CLOSED!
Oh no, another trip up from Stockton the next week.
Dammit, still closed.
So I went to one of my other "regular" shops and mentioned that he was closed.
"Well sure" was the response. He had DIED !!!
And here was me all set to glom up some of the coolest gems in the whole dern town.