Many "Blue" coins are market acceptable now. That is a serious accusation you just made that is better said to him in a PM if you believe it to be true.
It does not matter what all the experienced copper collectors think. You and I don't matter. The guys turning Proofs blue don't matter. THE COINS ARE "MARKET ACCEPTABLE" at this time. People want them and back it up with their $$$$$.
Mike, I'm being realistic. IMO, the majority of the folks who are buying these coins, professionally grading these coins, and auctioning these coins have a lot more money and success than I do. I should be the last person here to write that they are INEXPERIENCED. Tastes change over time. Someone could post a video showing how to turn coins blue in your own home and it would not affect the copper market much. It is too saturated. Too many hands in the pot and too much to lose.
Some folks actually believe that all the Mint Red copper is original too. Let's change the subject and write about that in another discussion.
I'm sorry, I must have been unclear. I'm not talking about people who are grading these coins or selling these coins or auctioning these coins. When I was referring to the inexperienced, I was talking about collectors who fall for the game.
And I could care less how much money or success anyone has. Neither of those mean a thing when it comes to numismatic knowledge.
I am only interested in the truth....or the lack thereof.
And you know when you've hit on the truth? When people call others names like a "flat earther" or "troll" instead of simply sharing whatever peer reviewed study thy are referring to. When they post a 2nd grade synopsis of the scientific method and don't even follow it themselves. When they can't convince their even friends and partners of things they argue are proven facts. When they take their ball and go home.
Know anyone like that? I do.
And if you truly suggest that threads like this don't have an effect, then simply look at the market prices for these coins over time. These blue toned coins don't sell at auction for the prices they used to fetch before all this came out years ago -- those prices are reserved for the same inexperienced collectors I was alluding to in my response.
And hopefully a few of them are reading this and wondering why a market maker in these coins is acting like an 8 year old.
And on that question, both you and I know the answer.
Collector of Large Cents, US Type, and modern pocket change.
I cannot argue with that. I work with a fella who gets backed into a corner with simple questions about a coin and his opinion of it. Ninety-five percent of the time, he cannot defend/explain/or teach me so he finally says "I don't want to talk about it anymore!" It gets very frustrating.
Here is one numismatic mystery to try with your friends at the coin club: Why is this coin a DMPL and this one that has the identical depth of mirrors not? Anyway, I never get a satisfactory answer. I've learned it has to do with the date, mint, value, rarity, and probably what he had for lunch, how close it is to 5 PM, and how much his hemorrhoids are hurting. LOL.
IHC PR coins that exhibit blue color are really quite rare. I sampled the population from CoinFacts for three representative years:
1871 BN RB RD CAM Total
42 234 76 3 355
Blue 7 1 - - 8
1885 BN RB RD CAM Total
281 385 40 1 707
Blue 30 5 - - 35
1900 BN RB RD CAM Total
45 271 99 5 420
Blue 8 4 - - 12
IHC proofs with blue toning comprise only 3.7% of the Pop vs. RD coins which are 14.5% of the Pop. RB coins are 60% of the Pop and very few of these have any blue toning. Much or the Proskey hoard of IHC PR coins were noted to have irridescent toning which may have been caused by the mint tissue of the coin envelopes in which they were stored for many years. After dispursment to collectors, many were oiled and even varnished for preservation purposes. And when they were later treated with acetone or MS70 to remove the oil or lacquer, the toning they obtained from Proskey's storage was restored. Blue IHC's are significantly rare to explain their toning source as storage conditions rather than coin doctors making them blue. Coin doctors are very good at ASE's, but their technique would look very noticeably odd on an IHC. If anything, the Pop of RD coins is certainly reflective of enhanced surfaces.
Blue IHC's made with MS70 sounds like a really BIG Nothing Burger to me.
@MikeInFL said:
I'm sorry, I must have been unclear. I'm not talking about people who are grading these coins or selling these coins or auctioning these coins. When I was referring to the inexperienced, I was talking about collectors who fall for the game.
And I could care less how much money or success anyone has. Neither of those mean a thing when it comes to numismatic knowledge.
I am only interested in the truth....or the lack thereof.
And you know when you've hit on the truth? When people call others names like a "flat earther" or "troll" instead of simply sharing whatever peer reviewed study thy are referring to. When they post a 2nd grade synopsis of the scientific method and don't even follow it themselves. When they can't convince their even friends and partners of things they argue are proven facts. When they take their ball and go home.
Know anyone like that? I do.
And if you truly suggest that threads like this don't have an effect, then simply look at the market prices for these coins over time. These blue toned coins don't sell at auction for the prices they used to fetch before all this came out years ago -- those prices are reserved for the same inexperienced collectors I was alluding to in my response.
And hopefully a few of them are reading this and wondering why a market maker in these coins is acting like an 8 year old.
And on that question, both you and I know the answer.
Mike in Fl - show us your evidence that 'all' (or most, or any you don't like) blue toned copper is human assisted with MS70. Images with explanation of your experiments would be great.
I'm on the road this week. Happy to share my results when I get home....but they are precisely the same as Stealer's.
But where did I suggest "all" or even "most" blue toned copper is human assisted?
I didn't.
But I have contended the monochromatic blue coins -- like the Lincoln posted in this thread -- can be recreated by the simple process of dipping it in a base. They can also be recreated by simply dropping a few in the laundry with some laundry detergent.
Do you disagree?
And it's also worth noting I'm not the one explaining away these coins as natural, suggesting the toning was there the whole time only to be revealed by a dip in a base, making or selling them, or calling those who disagree with me a flat earther.
So, who should have the burden of proof?
Collector of Large Cents, US Type, and modern pocket change.
Isnt that the monster 1913-S that came out of the Brown Luster Registry Set? Coin was consigned through Andy at Angel Dees. That is beautiful! Love it. Glad to see that little flaw on the TrueView was not really there. It did look like some foreign piece of material was laying on the surface of the coin in the photo. Must have blown in when the coin was being photographed raw. That is one stunning beastie. Nice nab if its yours. That's a pretty old cert number too. Probably from 10 years ago?
@WingedLiberty1957Thanks for your work! Unfortunately, the surface of the right side of your coin was different and not "set" as on the left side. Note that is was already an off-color tending to pink. That's why it turned a shade of pink. MS-70 rarely changes a naturally oxidized (brown) surface pink.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6027503/uploads/editor/d3/mqa0arhkkpid.jpg> Isnt that the monster 1913-S that came out of the Brown Luster Registry Set? Coin was consigned through Andy at Angel Dees. That is beautiful! Love it. Glad to see that little flaw on the TrueView was not really there. It did look like some foreign piece of material was laying on the surface of the coin in the photo. Must have blown in when the coin was being photographed raw. That is one stunning beastie. Nice nab if its yours. That's a pretty old cert number too. Probably from 10 years ago?
It's been in a PCGS holder for many years. The top picture is a bit more true to the coin. If you tilt it just right, you can see as much red that comes through on the second picture. Otherwise its an extremely lustrous true blue monster.
Recently upgraded to a Pop 1/0 MS66BN.
Some refer to overgraded slabs as Coffins. I like to think of them as Happy Coins.
@jtlee321 said:
With all the experts in here, can someone tell me if this coin is natural or caused by MS70? It's a business strike 1899 Indian Cent that when viewed under normal lighting conditions appears brown in color. When the coin is tilted and the light is reflected directly to the eye, an iridescent blue with magenta pops. My understanding is that the so called blue coins caused by MS70 retain the blue color no matter the angle you hold the coin to the light.
I have yet to send this coin to PCGS and I may not, but it's one that I bought on eBay back when I first started getting back into this hobby.
Normal lighting
Reflected lighting
The problem with this coin is that it's AU. Not that's it's been MS70'd, which is also a problem
Oh, yes copper does tarnish. Ask your Mom why she cleans the bottom of the Coppertop pots and pans.
I remember providing copper ore for the foyer of Bill Harrah's home at Lake Tahoe back in the 1960's. (think Harrah's Club and Casino). The prettiest ore was the low grade copper that was blueish green in color. But, there were streaks of pure copper (shiny like a penny) that ran through it and even before the job was finished the slabbed ore was turning dark and tarnishing. We thought that Mr. Harrah would object but he did not, much to our relief. The foyer is 5,000 sq ft and the ore took weeks to inlay and grout. I spent a better part of three months cutting my ore into 5/8" slabs and the money from that paid for my college education.
bob
Registry: CC lowballs (boblindstrom), bobinvegas1989@yahoo.com
I while back I purchased a proof set, possibly a late fifties or early sixties set and upon examining my purchase I noticed the Lincoln had beautiful suttle blue toning. The packaging didn't looked tampered with and the owner was selling a toned coin in the package. I believe it to be natural. There was no toning on the other coins.
@air4mdc said:
I while back I purchased a proof set, possibly a late fifties or early sixties set and upon examining my purchase I noticed the Lincoln had beautiful suttle blue toning. The packaging didn't looked tampered with and the owner was selling a toned coin in the package. I believe it to be natural. There was no toning on the other coins.
This is a good point. Too many use the blanket statement: blue copper = MS70. It is simply untrue. Copper will tone naturally in blue-red-purple tones. Many many examples here on this thread. If one uses MS70 on such a coin, you strip off the patina and reveal the underlying toning and boom it comes out. Or take a look at the IC 3 posts above. At one angle, looks like brown copper, another, the thin film colors of blue come out. When I have MS70ed coins and got some kind of blue, it did not matter the angle you view it, it was blue. And the blue from MS70 faded away with time, and only occurred on selected coppers, not all of them. This shows that this specific type of blue is a volatile coating that goes away with time - some type of reaction with something on the surface of some copper but not others, and not the copper itself.
Now many may not like the 'MS70 look', where to patina is stripped off and reveals whatever is underneath as copper or thin film toning, but that is another issue.
@air4mdc said:
I while back I purchased a proof set, possibly a late fifties or early sixties set and upon examining my purchase I noticed the Lincoln had beautiful suttle blue toning. The packaging didn't looked tampered with and the owner was selling a toned coin in the package. I believe it to be natural. There was no toning on the other coins.
This is a good point. Too many use the blanket statement: blue copper = MS70. It is simply untrue. Copper will tone naturally in blue-red-purple tones. Many many examples here on this thread. If one uses MS70 on such a coin, you strip off the patina and reveal the underlying toning and boom it comes out. Or take a look at the IC 3 posts above. At one angle, looks like brown copper, another, the thin film colors of blue come out. When I have MS70ed coins and got some kind of blue, it did not matter the angle you view it, it was blue. And the blue from MS70 faded away with time, and only occurred on selected coppers, not all of them. This shows that this specific type of blue is a volatile coating that goes away with time - some type of reaction with something on the surface of some copper but not others, and not the copper itself.
Now many may not like the 'MS70 look', where to patina is stripped off and reveals whatever is underneath as copper or thin film toning, but that is another issue.
Best, SH
I need to proofread more than three times my friends. I meant to type, " the owner was NOT selling a toned coin." If I could ever find the time and if I could ever figure how to post a picture here I would take one of the proof set.
The Rockford show I went to on Sunday a gentleman had some soft blue toned Lincolns on display. A very subdued blue/ purple in a few coins. He agreed about blue natural toning on Lincolns. On the other hand I have not came across anyone stating they are selling AT either.
I'm a fan of toning just not a fan of the price premium. And I don't particular care to see nice collectible coins AT'd. I think ASE's make a good canvas for AT.
Comments
Many "Blue" coins are market acceptable now. That is a serious accusation you just made that is better said to him in a PM if you believe it to be true.
Thank you for your concern.
Don't believe me? Ask any experienced copper collector about Rick and these coins.
You know, all those flat-earthers.
It does not matter what all the experienced copper collectors think. You and I don't matter. The guys turning Proofs blue don't matter. THE COINS ARE "MARKET ACCEPTABLE" at this time. People want them and back it up with their $$$$$.
To the inexperienced, perhaps.
Mike, I'm being realistic. IMO, the majority of the folks who are buying these coins, professionally grading these coins, and auctioning these coins have a lot more money and success than I do. I should be the last person here to write that they are INEXPERIENCED. Tastes change over time. Someone could post a video showing how to turn coins blue in your own home and it would not affect the copper market much. It is too saturated. Too many hands in the pot and too much to lose.
Some folks actually believe that all the Mint Red copper is original too. Let's change the subject and write about that in another discussion.
I'm sorry, I must have been unclear. I'm not talking about people who are grading these coins or selling these coins or auctioning these coins. When I was referring to the inexperienced, I was talking about collectors who fall for the game.
And I could care less how much money or success anyone has. Neither of those mean a thing when it comes to numismatic knowledge.
I am only interested in the truth....or the lack thereof.
And you know when you've hit on the truth? When people call others names like a "flat earther" or "troll" instead of simply sharing whatever peer reviewed study thy are referring to. When they post a 2nd grade synopsis of the scientific method and don't even follow it themselves. When they can't convince their even friends and partners of things they argue are proven facts. When they take their ball and go home.
Know anyone like that? I do.
And if you truly suggest that threads like this don't have an effect, then simply look at the market prices for these coins over time. These blue toned coins don't sell at auction for the prices they used to fetch before all this came out years ago -- those prices are reserved for the same inexperienced collectors I was alluding to in my response.
And hopefully a few of them are reading this and wondering why a market maker in these coins is acting like an 8 year old.
And on that question, both you and I know the answer.
I cannot argue with that. I work with a fella who gets backed into a corner with simple questions about a coin and his opinion of it. Ninety-five percent of the time, he cannot defend/explain/or teach me so he finally says "I don't want to talk about it anymore!" It gets very frustrating.
Here is one numismatic mystery to try with your friends at the coin club: Why is this coin a DMPL and this one that has the identical depth of mirrors not? Anyway, I never get a satisfactory answer. I've learned it has to do with the date, mint, value, rarity, and probably what he had for lunch, how close it is to 5 PM, and how much his hemorrhoids are hurting. LOL.
IHC PR coins that exhibit blue color are really quite rare. I sampled the population from CoinFacts for three representative years:
1871 BN RB RD CAM Total
42 234 76 3 355
Blue 7 1 - - 8
1885 BN RB RD CAM Total
281 385 40 1 707
Blue 30 5 - - 35
1900 BN RB RD CAM Total
45 271 99 5 420
Blue 8 4 - - 12
IHC proofs with blue toning comprise only 3.7% of the Pop vs. RD coins which are 14.5% of the Pop. RB coins are 60% of the Pop and very few of these have any blue toning. Much or the Proskey hoard of IHC PR coins were noted to have irridescent toning which may have been caused by the mint tissue of the coin envelopes in which they were stored for many years. After dispursment to collectors, many were oiled and even varnished for preservation purposes. And when they were later treated with acetone or MS70 to remove the oil or lacquer, the toning they obtained from Proskey's storage was restored. Blue IHC's are significantly rare to explain their toning source as storage conditions rather than coin doctors making them blue. Coin doctors are very good at ASE's, but their technique would look very noticeably odd on an IHC. If anything, the Pop of RD coins is certainly reflective of enhanced surfaces.
Blue IHC's made with MS70 sounds like a really BIG Nothing Burger to me.
OINK
Mike in Fl - show us your evidence that 'all' (or most, or any you don't like) blue toned copper is human assisted with MS70. Images with explanation of your experiments would be great.
Best, SH
Successful transactions with-Boosibri,lkeigwin,TomB,Broadstruck,coinsarefun,Type2,jom,ProfLiz, UltraHighRelief,Barndog,EXOJUNKIE,ldhair,fivecents,paesan,Crusty...
Good morning.
I'm on the road this week. Happy to share my results when I get home....but they are precisely the same as Stealer's.
But where did I suggest "all" or even "most" blue toned copper is human assisted?
I didn't.
But I have contended the monochromatic blue coins -- like the Lincoln posted in this thread -- can be recreated by the simple process of dipping it in a base. They can also be recreated by simply dropping a few in the laundry with some laundry detergent.
Do you disagree?
And it's also worth noting I'm not the one explaining away these coins as natural, suggesting the toning was there the whole time only to be revealed by a dip in a base, making or selling them, or calling those who disagree with me a flat earther.
So, who should have the burden of proof?
Hey guys, I think we may have "killed" the market for "blue" copper just a little. I hope it picks up again soon as the coins are pretty.
My Coin Blog
My Toned Lincoln Registry Set
It's great to experiment, thanks for sharing your results
Successful transactions with : MICHAELDIXON, Manorcourtman, Bochiman, bolivarshagnasty, AUandAG, onlyroosies, chumley, Weiss, jdimmick, BAJJERFAN, gene1978, TJM965, Smittys, GRANDAM, JTHawaii, mainejoe, softparade, derryb
Bad transactions with : nobody to date
Isnt that the monster 1913-S that came out of the Brown Luster Registry Set? Coin was consigned through Andy at Angel Dees. That is beautiful! Love it. Glad to see that little flaw on the TrueView was not really there. It did look like some foreign piece of material was laying on the surface of the coin in the photo. Must have blown in when the coin was being photographed raw. That is one stunning beastie. Nice nab if its yours. That's a pretty old cert number too. Probably from 10 years ago?
My Coin Blog
My Toned Lincoln Registry Set
@WingedLiberty1957 Thanks for your work! Unfortunately, the surface of the right side of your coin was different and not "set" as on the left side. Note that is was already an off-color tending to pink. That's why it turned a shade of pink. MS-70 rarely changes a naturally oxidized (brown) surface pink.
I think this is a good representation of what MS70 can do to a typical RB cent.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6027503/uploads/editor/d3/mqa0arhkkpid.jpg> >
It's been in a PCGS holder for many years. The top picture is a bit more true to the coin. If you tilt it just right, you can see as much red that comes through on the second picture. Otherwise its an extremely lustrous true blue monster.
Recently upgraded to a Pop 1/0 MS66BN.
This thread has grown legs.
Hey tiger, how are you with Chinese coin counterfeits?
The problem with this coin is that it's AU. Not that's it's been MS70'd, which is also a problem
Is that chimp hitting a rock with a stick????
Oh, yes copper does tarnish. Ask your Mom why she cleans the bottom of the Coppertop pots and pans.
I remember providing copper ore for the foyer of Bill Harrah's home at Lake Tahoe back in the 1960's. (think Harrah's Club and Casino). The prettiest ore was the low grade copper that was blueish green in color. But, there were streaks of pure copper (shiny like a penny) that ran through it and even before the job was finished the slabbed ore was turning dark and tarnishing. We thought that Mr. Harrah would object but he did not, much to our relief. The foyer is 5,000 sq ft and the ore took weeks to inlay and grout. I spent a better part of three months cutting my ore into 5/8" slabs and the money from that paid for my college education.
bob
I while back I purchased a proof set, possibly a late fifties or early sixties set and upon examining my purchase I noticed the Lincoln had beautiful suttle blue toning. The packaging didn't looked tampered with and the owner was selling a toned coin in the package. I believe it to be natural. There was no toning on the other coins.
This is a good point. Too many use the blanket statement: blue copper = MS70. It is simply untrue. Copper will tone naturally in blue-red-purple tones. Many many examples here on this thread. If one uses MS70 on such a coin, you strip off the patina and reveal the underlying toning and boom it comes out. Or take a look at the IC 3 posts above. At one angle, looks like brown copper, another, the thin film colors of blue come out. When I have MS70ed coins and got some kind of blue, it did not matter the angle you view it, it was blue. And the blue from MS70 faded away with time, and only occurred on selected coppers, not all of them. This shows that this specific type of blue is a volatile coating that goes away with time - some type of reaction with something on the surface of some copper but not others, and not the copper itself.
Now many may not like the 'MS70 look', where to patina is stripped off and reveals whatever is underneath as copper or thin film toning, but that is another issue.
Best, SH
Successful transactions with-Boosibri,lkeigwin,TomB,Broadstruck,coinsarefun,Type2,jom,ProfLiz, UltraHighRelief,Barndog,EXOJUNKIE,ldhair,fivecents,paesan,Crusty...
An expert.
@AUandAG, I love that story!
@Insider2 asked: "Hey tiger, how are you with Chinese coin counterfeits?"
@stealer replied: "An expert."
One of my numismatic teachers liked to say that the word "expert" has two roots: "Ex" (from or out of) and "Pert."
Please PM me if you can keep a secret.
I need to proofread more than three times my friends. I meant to type, " the owner was NOT selling a toned coin." If I could ever find the time and if I could ever figure how to post a picture here I would take one of the proof set.
The Rockford show I went to on Sunday a gentleman had some soft blue toned Lincolns on display. A very subdued blue/ purple in a few coins. He agreed about blue natural toning on Lincolns. On the other hand I have not came across anyone stating they are selling AT either.
I'm a fan of toning just not a fan of the price premium. And I don't particular care to see nice collectible coins AT'd. I think ASE's make a good canvas for AT.