What's my roll of 1902 uncirculated Indian cents worth?
darktone
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I have had these for ten years or so. Actually I believe there are only 49 of them. All come from 3-4 different dies. Some are perfect some have some carbon spotting but all are BU red. 
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I like them
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I don't need them but I would guess 20 - 25 dollars ea.
I may be corrected here by those that know more than I do.
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If this is not a joke it is totally foolish.
I think it was intended as a joke but also with some underlying truth too.
"“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)
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Was hoping those with real knowledge would chime in too. Kind of expected strange answers. Lol.
Also wanted to add those that would just slab them would not be the highest estimates since they are just looking for profit- the one that wants one of the last remaining BU rolls for their collection would surely be the one that would pay the most. I think Rick Snow said BU rolls were in the 30K range a few years ago.
Am I missing something? I am seeing UNCs go for much less than $50 on Ebay, most under $30 each.
I kind of expected strange answers because nobody that I know has seen a roll of these actually sell for many years. Do I think it's worth $30K - no but surely they are worth more than $25 a coin. I know I would pay you the 20% all day long for as many as you could find of true original rolls.
I have not seen an original roll in years. I remember having a 1899 roll in 1973.
$25 per coin? Bizzarro world. Even the most rudimentary analysis would apply the Price Guide numbers in RED MS63/64/65 ($135/$250/$550) to the 49 coins. That bracket would be $6,600-$27,000. Median condition price of $12K-$14K. None of this factors is any collector premium for the uniqueness of a 49 coin red original roll. I suspect a typical auction price would be $12K-$20K imo....and I'm no expert. The market doesn't need or require these to be slabbed, which then somewhat ruins the idea of an "original" roll, even if sequentially numbered at PCGS. A matched original roll is something worthy. It's like finding a living, breathing dinosaur today. Figure out the average grade of that group, apply a typical RD price, and whatever premium should exist....that's what they're worth. I'd figure the average grade is in the MS64 range? By applying the full PCGS price guide, that in essence is assigning a 20-30% premium....a number not unlike the premiums that an original/matched gem 1902 proof set might bring. If these showed up at my local B&M for $10K, they'd be mine. Though I'd likely pay significantly more. I would think that previous original RED rolls had some 65 and 66 and even 67 coins in them...as luster and color is critical in those grades.
Last time I heard someone discussing original red rolls was dealer/ex-grader Charlie Browne who explained to me that he couldn't get the coins graded. TPG wouldn't grade them as they "weren't sure" they were original red coins. One of the sharpest guys in coins buys them under intense auction competition beating out the other best minds in the game, and he doesn't know what he's doing? Yeah right. I don't know what the final outcome of that story was though.
This is what started the 1912-D Liberty Nickel upheaval a little ways back.
You mentioned a couple of different dies, are any the FS-401 S-4 Die Gouge?
http://www.pcgscoinfacts.com/Coin/Detail/412774
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Depends on the grade.
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I have to agree about the spotted coins being a tough sell. I would think you would do well if you got $175 ea.
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Having the one coin missing would hurt the value from someone wanting to save an "original roll" as is.
Outside of that and looking at the pics, I would guess $6,000-10,000 depending on quality, obviously more if it was a mega gem roll. Just my uneducated opinion.
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And this coming from the guy that says they aren't worth $6,000....for $122/coin. Which estimate is "more ridiculous?" Please ship me your next roll at $8,000 and I won't even quibble.
Why would one coin missing spoil a "roll?" Where these ever originally rolled by the US Mint in original rolled wrappers of only 50 coins? I would suspect Heritage, Stacks/Bowers, and those other biggies have handled far more Indian Cent rolls than Rick Snow. This is not genius question. We're talking MS63-MS65ish RED Indian cents. A very easy coin to grade. All you have to do then is add up 49 numbers. It comes down to what premium over that amount (if any) a collector would be ready to pay. A matched-original roll not screwed up by the grading gurus? Personally, I think they're worth more than what 49 scattered and various dated MS64 Reds would bring ($9K wholesale imo).
https://coins.ha.com/itm/indian-cents/1902-1c-ms64-red-pcgs-pcgs-population-305-224-ngc-census-151-238-cdn-175-whsle-bid-for-problem-free-ngc-pcgs-ms/a/131702-23055.s?hdnJumpToLot=1x=0&y=0
That dullish red MS64 just sold for $176 at auction. No real pizzaz to it.
realistically these coins in MS62 to MS64 red raw are 60-80 buck coins. The spotted ones are less.
Slab em 100-140 is it worth it will they get skunked for scary red color who the heck knows.
Its fun to quote a price point but getting it is another thing altogether. I tend to think 5k would be difficult to get as a retail number today.
These may be worthy of running an ebay listing with best offer with this 30k number to start and see how many offers you get ,we may all be surprised or not.
These are fun to see each time they are posted not a lot of red rolls around that's for sure.
Hhhmm...., I'lll go with the no expert.
I got to ask, does anyone know what they are talking about on this board?
J/W
Do they come with original wrapper? Are they counterfeit out of Europe?
It's is not limited to $3000 a year, it's unlimited in proportion to your gains, its limited only if there are zero gains...
Yes I would if I were still dealing coins day to day like I was in 2011. So I can stay on your case. If I had the cash flow in coins that I was doing then, most certainly would take a shot at $8K. You're trying to apply your own feelings and profit motives to the other 99.999% of the US coin market. All we need is a couple of collectors/investors/dealers out there are in love with the notion of a blazing red rolls of Indian Cents....and you're $6K "high" price gets multiplied. These things aren't typically beat up like the larger coins that were rolled. I would think a choice original roll would have numerous MS65's in it and some 66's...assuming not picked over and others substituted back in. From the photo above, it looks entirely fresh with 64+ surfaces on the ones I see. A carbon spot doesn't bother me. Darktone probably knows that the break down of grades would be. They should say so.
I've seen many original rolls bought without looking at more than a few random coins. Morgan dollar rolls and bags often bought as such. When Charlie Browne bought that Indian roll above at auction, I recall it was at a price of 65RD or higher per coin. My "estimate" is based on those coins probably being nicer than most here would think. Not everyone is has to spend an hour looking at that roll to grade all 49 coins to come up with a "value." I understand if that walked into most shops, the offer would be BU 61/62 money to "leave room"....lol. I'm glad Darktone's roll will be going to someone who will cherish it. Elmiracoin doesn't even have such a roll to offer, can't go out and get one, but knows it's not worth more than $6,000. I get it.
What the heck? Has this thread become a tax advisory service for Elmiracoin to offer their services? Who asked for that input on a thread about what a roll of BU Indians was worth?
I think those that are looking at these at a per coin slabbed value would never be in the running if they went to auction. That approach might work on Lincoln cent rolls from the 30's but I think not here though.
I slabbed a roll of red 1909 Indians and a roll of red 09-VDBs in 2014 that I had bought from Bowers and Ruddy many years ago.
My experience was that when you throw that many coins at a grader all at once, he doesn't see many gems, just a lot of 63 s and 64 s and even the few coins that had toned were returned ungraded as they didn't match the rest of the roll. To be fair, over the years of being handled they had acquired spots similar to the OPs coins.
This is what I call reverse profiling....too many nice coins submitted together rather than the usual dealer trick of sending in several coins with one better than the rest to get an upgrade.
I don't think there is any premium in having so many coins in one place...after slabbing they are worth whatever the market is for each coin.
Commems and Early Type
Of course they wouldn't. Many of the so-called smart local dealers around here are looking for simple rips without risk. Wouldn't we all? They don't want to have to think or risk a single cent in any transaction. Not all dealers and collectors think like that. The top 2-3 bidders out of the entire country at major auction determine what this roll would be worth.....not the other 99.999% of market participants. All I know is $6,000 sounds like "stupid" money to me. And paying $2,000 above "stupid" money sounds very reasonable imo. Seems like all most know today is dip 'em, slab 'em, CAC 'em, and dump 'em. These same people want to pay $100-175 for an "A" level MS64 Morgan toner....the same ones that bring $500-$2500 on GC or at major auction to those that know that market.
Maybe it's just me but that one missing coin would take me from a significant premium to a slight discount. Just sayin...
The term "original" roll simply can't be proven. If they are in fact uncirculated and problem free, 5K would seem like a reasonable price sight unseen. The one missing coin might be the only 65 in the whole roll!
So are you saying that these came from the mint wrapped in rolls of 50? Because if they did, that would be very important to me. But, if they came only in bags of larger quantities (like 500 to 5000), and the banks or collectors rolled them years or decades later, that makes no difference to me. It's like 1902 Morgan dollar "rolls." Did they really ever come that way? 49, 50 or 51, wouldn't matter to me.
Original "roll" to me means that all the coins are obviously or unequivocally of the same character, look, and provenance. If they don't strongly suggest that....then figure them as 49 individuals w/o a connection. I don't see a need to prove a connection back to 1902 with written documentation.
See what I mean? It makes no sense.
"Seems like all most know today is dip 'em, slab 'em, CAC 'em, and dump 'em. These same people want to pay $100-175 for an "A" level MS64 Morgan toner....the same ones that bring $500-$2500 on GC or at major auction to those that know that market. "
Wot?
$8,000 is about $160 per coin. That seems appropriate especially if they grade 64RD and 65RD. There are a few spotted ones and they would hurt the value. $5,000 is the wholesale number as is.
That is a big question. Really as far as I am concerned it has never really been proven if they came in paper rolls or not. The guy I got them from said they were in a paper roll that fell apart just handling them. Who it was rolled by will never be known. But I can say they are all the same color on all three sides and 3-4 die varieties which would be hard to randomly put together.
Thanks Rick! I was hoping you saw this thread.
I would gladly buy more for $5,000 or $8,000 if I could though!
If I bought a 49 coin original roll I'd acquire a 50th coin to fill it out before I sold it,
I never planned on selling them. Just wanted to put a value on them for my wife or kids if something was to happen.
Exactly. No one here in this thread is going to be the buyer of this roll. So what we all think it's worth is conjecture. None of us but Darktone knows what the coins should or could grade....the critical missing component. I'd be very surprised if they brought less than $10K at auction. But that's just my guess. I understand the need for dealers and flippers to minimize their downside risk and get them on the cheap. My local shops probably wouldn't want to pay more than $1,000-$2,000 for the roll.
I agree none of my local dealers are good enough to make the call on pcgs slabbed coins let alone something like this. Lol
Not really sure if you are trying to troll me or what?? You are coming off as a know it all.
got to agree to the dealer trick of not sending nice coins enmasse happened nice coins together > @darktone said:
Wrong reason .. B&Ms looking for profits even with up tick in gold ...business still quiet... which is why they would go low on a buy price .. citing the spots on coins
Jeesh Elmira , you are really full of yourself. Lol.
I'm pretty sure most dealers would do the same . It's a safe bet it was a put together roll to begin with that shed the 50th coin somewhere along the line.
If you ever come to a price please let me know.
I'll trade a 64p Rosie unc roll and a sealed 64d Rosie roll for them =P
They will be with me until the end most likely. Lol
It would be a good idea to set up an exit strategy for whoever inherits the roll then. I cringe to think of what a coin shop would offer for it if someone other than you brought it in . My guess would be under $100 at a few places I can think of. Search around through your stash and "find" the 50th coin too , when you get the chance
I am trying to get a handle on it all so they know what things are worth and who to get a hold of if need be.
Certainly a nice looking roll and neat item to own.
Only guessing but I feel maximum value may be obtained by pulling out all the best and sell the balance as a partial roll.
It's already a partial roll and the novelty of being an original roll (even partial) with such great and original color as these will offset the discount that the spots would generate.
Get the money on the best and the best money for the rest.
Some just don't get it. Once they are parted out it's done- they can never be again. This might be fine to do with a roll of Jefferson nickels from the 50's but they won't be separated and slabbed on my watch- thats for sure. They will be preserved for a future numismatist and not to a part time flipper to make a few measly dollars....
Well I can see how one would want to keep a rare item as this together but I thought your question was what your roll of 1902 IHC was worth.
I have a beautiful 1879 proof set with matching purple toning on most of the silver pieces and all high grade ( Pr 65-Pr 67)and I don't ever plan on breaking it up either.
My heirs will deal with that so I've never bother to check out what they may be worth.
"$5,000 is the wholesale number as is."
At $102 per coin for choice RD uncs with a fresh look, doesn't seem to be even $1 of possible downside in that. How can you go wrong paying $100 per coin? Sign me up. If such a roll showed up at say FUN sitting in a prominent display case, the word would get around quick and you'd have a few dozen decent offers before the show was over. The buyers would find you....not the other way around. If such a group actually sold at the show, it might flip half a dozen times or more as each dealer got a cut.
If I really wanted to know what true market wholesale is (the highest paying dealer or collector/speculator) I'd have them placed in a FUN or summer ANA dealer bourse display and just get offers, including highest prices for cherry picks. Your dealer would love the attention and the contacts it would generate. I'd agree that some type of effort should be made for a detailed liquidation plan that goes along to the heirs. Just because you tell your heirs they are worth $XXXX, they may get the story they were all acid dipped by the next B&M shop...and worth $10 each. And chalk it up to you being senile or not knowing coins as well as you thought you did. It happens. I saw a $500K collection get sold by the widow for $50K where there were numerous RD rolls of gem 1911-s and 1910-s and other Lincolns. The rolls themselves were probably worth the $50K with many of the singles ending up on Teletrade from 1988-1990. The 19th century choice/gem proof type coins were worth the real money.
I smell a banning in elmiracoin's future. Seems to be asking for a trip to the woodshed.