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The Whittier Collection
Boosibri
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Sold by Heritage in 2006, I now have several coins from this collection. Out of curiosity, how is this provenance viewed today? There were some very nice coins in the collection and some duds for sure.
Any opinions?
Any opinions?
0
Comments
As for the provenance Im not sure if anyone really cares. Except for the few who may remember the sale.
I was 20 during that time and was not involved with coins of this caliber at the time.
I think Millennia and Lissner carry more fame/weight.
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
DO you have the catalog?
Nah, it's on the heritage archive
Latin American Collection
BidAsk: "I think Millennia and Lissner carry more fame/weight."
Yes, the Millennia Collection was absolutely incredible it is deservedly famous. Although the Lissner Collection is more famous than Whittier, as BidAsk says, I am not sure that it deserves to be more famous.
In the context of 19th century Latin American coins, the Whittier Collection is amazing. In terms of quality, completeness and depth in this category, Whittier is the best to have been sold at public auction in a long time. The Richard Stuart Collection is better, though it will not be sold at auction.
The Greatest World Coin Auction of All Time (Part 6 of 6): The Event of the Millennia
insightful10@gmail.com
BidAsk: "I think Millennia and Lissner carry more fame/weight."
Yes, the Millennia Collection was absolutely incredible it is deservedly famous. Although the Lissner Collection is more famous than Whittier, as BidAsk says, I am not sure that it deserves to be more famous.
In the context of 19th century Latin American coins, the Whittier Collection is amazing. In terms of quality, completeness and depth in this category, Whittier is the best to have been sold at public auction in a long time. The Richard Stuart Collection is better, though it will not be sold at auction.
The Greatest World Coin Auction of All Time (Part 6 of 6): The Event of the Millennia
insightful10@gmail.com
Excellent reference - will read up. I have a few coins from the sale.
Ex Millenia
Latin American Collection
JGenn:
The owner of the Millennia Collection is a real collector. I know his real name and his then location. I am aware of some of his other collecting pursuits, which I am sure would astonish the members of this forum if I could reveal them.
As Ira did a great deal of work to help the Millennia guy build that collection, without receiving any fees, an agreement that the Goldbergs would be able to auction that collection was fair, if there was such an agreement. I emphasize, though, that the Millennia collector has a long history of collecting coins, including many coins that were not in the Millennia Collection. I cannot say more at this time. I have, however, extensively researched great collections and auction events.
After more than twenty years of covering auctions, including the writing of hundreds of auction reviews, there are many readers who trust my judgment and have faith in my interpretations of events. Of course, I am accepting of contrary views in many cases. I assure all those interested that the Millennia Collector was very serious about the project. He and Ira did a great deal of work. Larry Goldberg was involved, too. There was not a "ploy."
As far assembling the Millennia Collection in a relatively short period of time, both hard work and much luck were involved. The Terner Collection of British coins and an absolutely amazing collection of Latin American coins, which was assembled by a foremost expert who wishes to remain anonymous, became available privately during that time span, as did other incredible items.
The Greatest World Coin Auction of All Time (Part 6 of 6): The Event of the Millennia
Rose-Ryals, 30 Shilling Gold Coins of King James I
insightful10@gmail.com
Enjoyed numismatic conversations with Eric P. Newman, Dave Akers, Jules Reiver, David Davis, Russ Logan, John McCloskey, Kirk Gorman, W. David Perkins...
Latin American Collection
Analyst: I enjoyed the write-ups and your excellent viewpoints along with reading commentary from others. These are some beautiful significant collections and I will need to pick up the catalogues in order to research the provenance if available.
Enjoyed numismatic conversations with Eric P. Newman, Dave Akers, Jules Reiver, David Davis, Russ Logan, John McCloskey, Kirk Gorman, W. David Perkins...
I left much of my library not associated with half eagles in storage in the US when I moved to Europe but as my interests have turned more to Latin Amerrcan I now need to restock and expand to identify provenances outside of what I currently have available. Ordered the Norweb and Pittman catalogs today, need a copy of the Caballero de las Yndias, and then a few others for use here.
Latin American Collection
Furthermore, if the dealer becomes wholly responsible for selecting, negotiating, marketing and selling the "collection", I find it hard to believe that the biases of a dealer (i.e. to turn a profit) would not influence the selection. I know that I routinely make purchase decisions where I acquire a coin that fits my collection but I'm also pretty sure I won't get my investment back, not that that is a marker of a great collection. Perhaps, "ploy" was a bit dramatic but I would still characterize Millennia as a well planned, executed and successful five-year investment scheme that happened to involve a great "selection" of coins that were very appealing to collectors' tastes circa 2008 -- but not a great "collection".
If the real story was that a close customer provided the Goldbergs with the means to realize their dream of assembling a world class collection in a way that financially benefited both parties, then I think that's a warm and wonderful gesture, but my opinion on the status of the collection's greatness would not change.
Please consider my rejoinder to JGenn's argument, in parts, one part here tonight. I do not wish for readers to suffer through unbearably long posts.
JGenn:
A collection can and should be analyzed without focusing upon the personality of the owner of the collection. The theme, contents, organization, quality, pedigrees of coins included and other aspects should be addressed, as I did in my articles. Unquestionably, the Millennia Collection is one of the all-time greatest collections of world coins.
JGenn:
JGenn may know far more about the Huntington Collection than I do. Tentatively, I am far more impressed by the Millennia Collection. Rather than having a meaningful theme and carefully selected coins, the Huntington Collection was a hoard of tens of thousands of items, many of which are barely worth more than bullion. Many might not even be worth melt value. Of course, there are attractive and interesting coins that are worth just melt value, including coins with historical aspects. We are not talking here about coins that are fun to collect; we are talking about the meaning of a great collection.
A while back, when Sotheby's offered the Huntington Collection as a unit, one expert told me that just a small number, less than 40?, of the coins in the Huntington Collection would be on par with the Millennia Collection in terms of rarity, quality and history.
JGenn:
A. The Millennia collector already had experience collecting some of the rarest and most historically important U.S. coins.
B. It is not fair to doubt the sincerity of collectors who are guided by dealers. We all rely upon professionals during the course of our lives. While the Millennia collector was guided by Ira with Larry's involvement, this collector did make decisions and was very much involved. He took possession of each coin as it was acquired.
Consider Dr. Duckor's past reliance upon David Akers:
The Dazzling Collecting Journey of Dr. Steven Duckor
C. Ira and the Millennia collector flew together to auctions in Europe. He viewed auction lots and was an active participant.
The Greatest World Coin Auction of All Time (Part 6 of 6): The Event of the Millennia
JGenn:
As I just said, the Millennia Collector was very much involved. Moreover, given my own experiences and the fact that I have analyzed auctions for more than 20 years, I strongly disagree with JGenn's point here. For every 25 collectors who think that they know how to grade unc. or Proof coins, maybe 2 or 3 really know and even some of them will often miss doctored or otherwise problematic coins. Coin collectors should hire experts to provide statements in writing; second and third interpretations of coins are beneficial to bidders in auctions. (Disclosure: I provide statements in writing.)
The Specter of Coin Doctoring and The Survival of Great Coins
A while back, when Sotheby's offered the Huntington Collection as a unit, one expert told me that just a small number, less than 40?, of the coins in the Huntington Collection would be on par with the Millennia Collection in terms of rarity, quality and history.
That is astonishingly wrong. The collection was extraordinarily extensive and expertly assembled. Yes, many common and inexpensive coins were included in the name of completeness, but there were thousands of first class rarities throughout the collection, many of which would have fit very nicely into the Millennia collection. (The ones that wouldn't fit would "fail" due to either the state of preservation and/or obscurity, and were destined more for specialists than for the Beverly Hills retail audience.)
And FWIW, I have seen about half of the Huntington coins in person, and would be surprised if the purchase price, rumored to be in the vicinity of $25 million, did not prove to be a bargain.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Comparing it to Huntington's is just silly.
8 Reales Madness Collection
Was "completeness" the only reason? My understanding is that there were more than 37,000 coins in that one Sotheby's lot, and I have been told that many of them would have wholesale values barely above bullion. Are these points true? I admitted above that I did not view the coins myself and that I am relying upon other sources, which could be wrong or misleading.
Mr. Eureka: "... but there were thousands of first class rarities throughout the collection, many of which would have fit very nicely into the Millennia collection" ...
I acknowledge that my sources could be wrong, but I have yet to be convinced.
I have written about many coins in the Millennia Collection, not just in the six part series that I authored in 2008, but also in subsequent articles. I have discussed the quality, value and historical importance of specific items. Also, Whitman published a book that featured chapters by different authors regarding the historical significance of some of the coins in the Millennia Collection. In sum, there is an abundance of published evidence that my interpretations of the Millennia Collection are fair enough. Of course, I am happy to address arguments to the contrary; a point here is that much evidence to support my positions on the Millennia Collection have already been laid out.
Arguments about the 'greatness' or commensurable merit of the Huntington Collection seem rather vague. The Huntington coins that I have seen so far have not been impressive, though I admit I have seen a microscopic percentage of the entity.
Please let us be told about the Huntington coins that would have 'fit' well into the Millennia Collection.
TwoKopeiki: "Millennia would be like taking all of the world coins CRO sold over the last year and packaging them up as a collection."
An amazing number of the greatest crowns and large gold coins from the 1700s, 1800s and 1900s were in the Millennia Collection. Although CRO has had some terrific coins in inventory, CRO has sold just a small number that would have qualified for the Millennia Collection. Some great coins would not have qualified because they would have been outside of the themes of the Millennia Collection.
I like many of the coins that CRO has sold. A remark such as that above, however, does not indicate an understanding of the Millennia Collecdtion. Please read my articles, and ask constructive questions.
TwoKopeiki: "Comparing it to Huntington's is just silly."
A. The Millennia Collector & Ira were able to cherry pick from the Terner Collection of British coins, which was phenomenal. In terms of quality, has a better collection of British gold coins been formed over the past sixty years? Consider all the MS-64 to MS-66 British gold coins from past centuries included, some of which were conservatively graded ATS. If TwoKopeiki had viewed them, he may have realized just how amazing this group was.
B. The Millennia Collector & Ira were able to cherry pick from one of the best collections of Latin American coins ever formed. It is not equal to the one that will soon be offered by a coin firm in the Southwest. It may, though, have have been the second best to be assembled in recent decades. If the Huntington Collection had better Latin American crowns overall and large gold coins from the 1800s than the Millennia Collection, I would be surprised. Please inform me.
C. One of the most amazing aspects of the Millennia Collection is that a large number of the rarities and Uncirculated type coins from past centuries were gradable by U.S. standards. Coins of the same issues that are sold in Europe are often not gradable or should not receive numerical grades because of serious problems. Furthermore, there were many true gems in the Millennia Collection, and very impressive 63 and 64 grade coins. I stand by my conclusions regarding its greatness.
The Millennia Collection is something that is truly amazing, almost beyond belief for a collection that was assembled in five years. While some sections are not earth-shattering, the whole is greater than the sum of the parts. I ask the members of this forum to review their Millennia Collections catalogues and start some new threads so that we may discuss coins included. Of course, some threads about Huntington coins would be worthwhile, too.
D. Were there true gems of major type coins or important rarities, from the 1400s to the 1900s, in the Huntington Collection? I have not heard of many.
E. Suppose that we started with a list of the Latin American coins in the Millennia Collection and then conceptually placed these side-by-side with the best Huntington coins of the same or equivalent issues, a showdown so-to-speak. How many matchups would Huntington coins win in terms of the tastes & preferences of the participants in this thread? If my sources are accurate (and I acknowledge that they might not be), Millennia coins would win by a large margin.
The Greatest World Coin Auction of All Time (Part 6 of 6): The Event of the Millennia
Millennia Collection coins are mentioned in articles about related topics.
insightful10@gmail.com
8 Reales Madness Collection
For starters, here are 80 of Huntington's 38,000 coins.
https://sixbid.com/browse.html?auction=730
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
And here are another 1004 of the 38,000 coins.
https://sixbid.com/browse.html?auction=429
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
According to this article, 26,500 of the 38,000 coins have been reacquired by the ANS. Probably not bullion crap, but likely heavy in less expensive and highly academic material. (Think ancient and medieval Spanish copper, etc.)
http://www.coinbooks.org/esylum_v16n05a20.html
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Probably another 1000 Huntington coins sold by Morton and Eden in this sale:
mortonandeden.com/pdfcats/61web.pdf
And I could go on and on, but it's time to call it a night.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Mr. Eureka: "For starters, here are 80 of Huntington's 38,000 coins.
https://sixbid.com/browse.html?auction=730 "
Yes, this is a start, and it is a little awkward, as Mr. Eureka knows that I am not an expert in Ancient Roman Coins. I do not think he is either. I thank Mr. Eureka, though, for drawing attention to this offering, which is noteworthy and pertinent to a discussion of important pedigrees.
Does the term "HSA" in the auction catalogue descriptions refer to the Huntington Collection? Is the number that follows each respective instance of "HSA" some kind of inventory, consignment or collection reference, like a social security number for a coin? Some kind of explanation would be helpful.
An explanation of the significance of these 80 coins and how they fit into the Huntington Collection would be pertinent, too. In my series of articles in 2008, I explained the thematic nature of the Millennia Collection and the criteria employed for selecting coins to be admitted to that collection. I was referring mostly to coins minted after 1000, although the Millennia Collection did contain some terrific ancient coins.
Besides, I had connected, partly due to my sources (which could have been incorrect), the Huntington Collection primarily with coins of the Iberian peninsula and Latin America, with the idea that it also contained some coins from the Middle East and maybe regions of Europe physically close to Spain. Did the Huntington Collection span the world?
At a glance, I note two coins among these 80 that sold for more than US$200,000; neither of which reached US$300k. Among Roman coins in the Millennia Collection, a Brutus gold coin brought $661,250; a coin catalogued as "Rome. Galba, April 68 - January 69 AD. Gold Aureus (7.28 g), Rome mint, struck late 68 AD" went for $448,500; and the "Rome. Severus Alexander, 222-235 AD Gold Aureus (6.31 g), Rome mint, struck 223 AD. Laureate and draped bust of Severus right. Reverse: View of the coliseum (the Flavian Amphitheater)" brought $920,000.
In terms of quality, artistry, and historical meaning, some of the other Ancient Roman gold coins in the Millennia Collection were spectacular. Could the Huntington Collection have been superior in this area? I do not know, though I am far from convinced.
http://images.goldbergauctions.com/php/chap_auc.php?site=1&lang=1&sale=46&chapter=2&page=2
Coincidentally, Mr. Eureka is quoted in a current article:
Gold Coins of the Central American Republic: Costa Rica & Guatemala
Analyst, the prices you quote for CAR gold in your recent article are frankly unrealistic for anyone looking to buy a coin which has not been cleaned, graffitied, or otherwise messed with. I think it would be more helpful to provide prices which don't reflect the bottom end of the range but a reasonable approximation for a problem free coin. Granted 75% of what is on the market is not problem free but that doesn't mean that problem coins are the correct reference point.
Latin American Collection
BoosiBri:
I responded at length to BoosiBri's criticism of my article in a more suitable thread on this forum.
As the present thread relates to how we judge coins and collections, I am attempting now to further respond to BoosiBri in a way that is pertinent to this thread on which pedigrees are appealing or highly valued.
A. Most collectors of 19th century Latin American coins are not nearly as interested in quality as collectors of 19th century U.S. coins, due to pragmatistm (few relatively original coins survive), lack of grading skills among most dealers in Latin American coins (though not Mr. Eureka who is a sharp grader) and/or a difference in collecting philosophy.
B. If BoosiBri is implying that a relatively original PCGS graded EF-45 CAR gold coin would typically cost far more than a relatively unoriginal PCGS graded EF-45 CAR gold coin that was struck from the same pair of dies, he is wrong. Connoisseurs of 19th century Latin American coins are rarer than the coins themselves. Once in a while there will be a bidding war for a CAR coin because of its quality, but not usually. Collectors who seek original coins should hire agents or consultants to evaluate the coins for them. Hire experts who are familiar with U.S. standards AND are opposed to dipping, which is all too common in the U.S. While I may be tooting my own horn here, I strongly favor relatively original coins and believe that dipping is harmful.
Building Excellent Coin Collections, Part 2: Dipped Coins
Although no expert would say that every coin in the Millennia Collection was original, I was impressed by the relative originality of many of the coins, including finest known examples of rarities and top examples of whole design types.
The Greatest World Coin Auction of All Time (Part 4): The structure of the Millennia collection
Analyst
I suspect connoisseurs of US 19th century coins are also connoisseurs of 19th century world coins including latin america.
I know I am. The transition from US to world coins relative to grading.is not that difficult.
Do I still rely on experts ....sure.
But you make it sound as though if you were dealing in latin america coins and had 2 pcgs XF 45 CAR gold coins for sale, one original and the other not original, that you would price them the same.....
Would you?
If not, why do you think other dealers who deal in 19th century latin america would do any different?
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
_A. Most collectors of 19th century Latin American coins are not nearly as interested in quality as collectors of 19th century U.S. coins, due to pragmatistm (few relatively original coins survive), lack of grading skills among most dealers in Latin American coins (though not Mr. Eureka who is a sharp grader) and/or a difference in collecting philosophy.
B. If BoosiBri is implying that a relatively original PCGS graded EF-45 CAR gold coin would typically cost far more than a relatively unoriginal PCGS graded EF-45 CAR gold coin that was struck from the same pair of dies, he is wrong. Connoisseurs of 19th century Latin American coins are rarer than the coins themselves. Once in a while there will be a bidding war for a CAR coin because of its quality, but not usually. Collectors who seek original coins should hire agents or consultants to evaluate the coins for them. Hire experts who are familiar with U.S. standards AND are opposed to dipping, which is all too common in the U.S. While I may be tooting my own horn here, I strongly favor relatively original coins and believe that dipping is harmful.
_
Your opinions are either overly generalized or just plain wrong
A. There are several sophisticated Latin American collectors. They may not be as visible in the US but just because you are not aware of them does not mean that they do not exist.
B. Analyst, find an original AU 4 Escudos or 8 escudos (if you can) and compare it to one of the many problem coins in problem free holders. If you want to use a 1/2E in EF45 Im sure you can prove yourself correct but that is not a fair generalization to higher graded coins in tougher denominations. An 8E in original EF45 is a different matter and would absolutely be a stronger result than a typical coin with problems and as BidAsk says any reasonable person would price these coins differently if held in inventory.
You state: Once in a while there will be a bidding war for a CAR coin because of its quality, but not usually.
The reason for this is likely that most of the coins are messed with, not that the collecting base does not exist to appreciate these examples. Causation vs. Correlation.
Your articles are helpful and informative but as you know I struggle with continuing to reference problem coins as accurate reflections of the values and prices for any given series. Reinforcement of marginal coins being reflective of the values within a series only serves to depress the expectations of collectors and prices for outstanding examples.
Latin American Collection
While it is true that sophisticated collectors of US coins tend to be more quality conscious than sophisticated collectors of Latin American coins, and that the coins trade accordingly, there are many quality conscious collectors of Latin American coins, and far more than "a few" will pay up for the right coins. In a world of more than 7 billion people, this should not be surprising.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
As BidAsk posted before BoosiBri in response to my post yesterday, I will respond first to BidAsk, and later to BoosiBri. I thank the readers of this thread for considering my viewpoints.
BidAsk:
There are an extremely small number of connoisseurs of 19th century U.S. coins who also collect 19th century Latin American coins. The vast majority of collectors of U.S. coins know very little about world coins and/or are not particularly interested. Also, it would not be practical for a large percentage of connoisseurs of 19th century U.S. coins to seek Latin American coins of equivalent quality, as so few exist.
There were a substantial number of sophisticated and affluent collectors active in the U.S. during the 19th century. There were not then many in Central America. For that and additional reasons, few relatively original 19th century Latin American coins survive. As examples, consider that there are many choice, relatively original U.S. Capped Bust and Liberty Seated half dollars. Finding ONE very much original Liberty Head quarter eagle or half eagle from the 1840s for a type set is not difficult.
Liberty Head Quarter Eagles from the 1840s
No Motto’ Liberty Head ($5 Gold) Half Eagles
BidAsk:
No, I did not say that I would "price them the same." I said, in most cases, they would tend to bring around the same amounts at auction, if all other factors were equal. I thought that I made it clear that I would personally value the coin that is relatively original coin higher than the one that is not as original. I am not thrilled about the fact that so many collectors pay large amounts of money for blatantly-dipped-white Morgans, but I recognize that this is a reality, despite my objections. It is important to tell the truth.
BidAsk:
It is certain that, ON AVERAGE AND IN MOST CASES, collectors of U.S. coins pay far more for increments in quality than collectors in Europe, the Middle East and South America. There is no doubt about it. I believe that Mr. Eureka would agree. Please consider the way in which I quoted Achim Schramm (one of the most famous and accomplished collectors in Europe) in my article on German Talers that were auctioned in January 2015. Schramm makes clear that 'only in the U.S.' do collectors pay so much for MS-66 coins vs. MS-64 coins. Granted, this is different from paying a premium for a relatively original EF-45 circulated coin. Nevertheless, I am certain that collectors in Europe and in Latin America are usually (not always) more interested in physical rarity and historical importance of coins than in originality. I am not saying that I agree with their perspectives. My opinions are beside the point here; It should not be controversial to cite this aspect of reality as a parameter.
The Rockaway Collection of Silver German Coins, mostly Talers
insightful10@gmail.com
Analyst, if that is the case as you outlined above then I continue to believe there is a huge opportunity to buy high original quality foreign coins at bargain prices.
Said another way I believe the discrepancy between fewer connoisseurs of foreign coins relative to US connoisseur collectors will narrow over time imo.
And if not I am a happy buyer !
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
Bidask: +1
Enjoyed numismatic conversations with Eric P. Newman, Dave Akers, Jules Reiver, David Davis, Russ Logan, John McCloskey, Kirk Gorman, W. David Perkins...
BidAsk:
Yes, from a logical perspective, these are great values. Whether many more people will demand relatively original world coins in the future, I do not know. There is a good chance that they will, especially if we help them with their education about coins. In regard to 19th century Latin American coins, both relatively original and less original coins are good values at the moment. Of course, it is a good idea to acquire relatively original coins, though it is not always practical to do so. Also, beginners may wish to start by buying some coins in 'genuine' or 'details' holders as part of a learning process.
BoosiBri:
I am aware of some collectors of 19th century, Latin American coins. Do any of them have advanced grading skills in terms of distinguishing a very much orginal, certifed EF-45 grade coin from another certified EF-45 grade coin (from the same dies) that has naturally retoned after being harmed in the past with chemicals?
There are NOT a large number of people collecting 19th century Latin American coins in total. As extremely rare Latin American coins that are needed for basic sets sell for small amounts in many cases, it is obvious enough that there are not a lot of people seriously collecting them.
BoosiBri:
May we please return to the hypothetical though realistic example of two PCGS graded EF-45 coins that were struck from the same pair of dies, one being very original and the other much less original. While I believe that the very original coin SHOULD be worth substantially more, it would be wrong to tell people that it is "absolutely" worth more. In some instances, the less original coin will bring a higher price. Not all auction participants ask me or Mr. Eureka for advice.
Certainly regarding world coins and U.S. coins, I have witnessed blatantly-dipped, heavily hairlined (from deliberate cleaning) and/or doctored coins bring more than relatively original coins at auction, sometimes much more. One of the reasons why I am writing articles is because I strongly believe that collectors should learn about differences among coins, especially about differences among coins with the same certified grades from the same grading service.
There is a good chance that relatively original coins will be worth substantial premiums in the future, but this is not certain, as there is a need to educate people. BoosiBri, Mr. Eureka, BidAsk, 1BustCollector and I, can all contribute more to the education of collectors. It is important to teach people about originality. If educational efforts fail, more and more rare coins will be deliberately modified.
How will Coin Collectors Interpret Certified Coin Grades in the Future?
The Specter of Coin Doctoring and The Survival of Great Coins
I was (am) older, but still not really "involved" with coins of this caliber. I do remember the sale, though. The name rolls off the tongue, easy [for me] to remember. My 2¢
Amat Colligendo Focum
Top 10 • FOR SALE
Just saw a a Millennia "Collection" 3 Scudi for sale on Ebay for $5000. It realized over $6000 in the Millennia auction. What does that say about the Millennia "provenance"? Yes, it's a cherry picked instance, but an analyst could track the outcome of these pieces that have been resold and provide an interesting post auction review.
The prices realized in Millenia were in some cases very very strong. Not surprising that some of the hype is gone from the prices. My 8R posted about was purchased for 30% less than the Millenia price realized.
Latin American Collection
The 1821 NG 8R? Nice catch! I have to say that is one of the nicest portraits of Fernando that I've ever seen. The strike detail on his sideburn is amazing.
I realize this thread is about the Whittier Collection, but I'll just chime in about Millennia since it's been discussed.
Millennia was a very hyped up sale, so naturally prices were crazy. I believe the Goldbergs advertised it for a year in advance and the coins were brought to all the major shows for viewing ahead of the sale. I first saw the lots I ultimately bought at the ANA Convention in 2007 and again at NYINC in 2008. (The Millennia sale took place at the end of May 2008.)
A good bunch of the Millennia Latin American coins traded hands again the first 2-3 years after the sale. Most of them traded about 20% below the Millennia price (and the two I bought several years later back this up.) I tend to think some "shenanigans" took place at Millennia resulting in those high prices.
JGenn:
A current asking price from a dealer does not indicate anything about the monetary value of the Millennia pedigree.
Market prices were higher in May 2008 than they are now for most (not all) world coins.
BoosiBri:
Pruebas:
"Hype" is not the right word, IMO. When an epic collection is offered, there is usually (though not always) a special aura and a charged environment. This is normal, not an anomaly. The auction firm did NOT engage in wrongdoing, as Pruebas suggests.
Prices at the Millennia sale generally, though not always, exceeded the market levels that were then current. Analogously, in the U.S. realm, prices for most (not all) Eliasberg coins in the Eliasberg sale of April 1997 exceeded the market levels of April 1997.
Pruebas:
This is normal, too. Heritage promoted the Gene Gardner sales and brought many Gardner coins to the ANA Convention in 2014 and to other shows. Stack's-Bowers has displayed Pogue Collection coins at many coin conventions.
In November 2013, auction prices for many (though not all) Newman coins exceeded the market levels at the time. At some (not all) sales of epic collections, bidding becomes crazed and some prices are much higher than current market levels. If an auction becomes electrified, then the results separate themselves from the overall market.
The Fabulous Eric Newman Collection, part 6: Auction Results for silver U.S. Coins
"The Fabulous Eric Newman Collection, Part 7: Gem Quality Early U.S. Silver Dollars
Insightful10@gmail.com
Yes, HSA stands for "Hispanic Society of America", i.e., Huntington. Yes, there was a written inventory, which was stored in perhaps twenty volumes of photo archives sold along with the collection. (There may be another copy of these archives at the ANS.) Additionally, every coin in the collection had a little tag with a typed inventory number.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.