Pogue IV

Justacommeman · May 24, 2016 10:57AM

Still shaking my head over the "bidding" action or non "action" on the 1804 dollar and 1822 $5.

Most bizarre auction and "bidding" I've ever seen in art, wine, sports cars or autos.

Ouch. The word embarrassing came up often post auction. The post auction buzz was tasty

Mark

Coinosaurus · May 24, 2016 11:06AM

Very odd. $10M for the 1804 $1, and $7M for the 1822 $5 seem like market competitive prices - but neither was enough. These are nice, but they are not Picassos. And now they are very slightly stigmatized for having not sold. (Who knows, maybe they sell for more privately - if so, more power to the consignor & auction house. It's generally not a good strategy tho.)

roadrunner · May 24, 2016 11:09AM

It's not like the auction house and Pogue don't have top notch market advisors. Almost seemed a Mecum classic car auction with the 1804 where it appeared sold and then wasn't....like they were trying to convince the consignor to "lift the reserve" and let 'er fly.

TopographicOceans · May 24, 2016 11:09AM

It could be the same reason I can't sell my $1,000 coins for $5,000

Justacommeman · May 24, 2016 11:15AM

Originally posted by: Coinosaurus

Very odd. $10M for the 1804 $1, and $7M for the 1822 $5 seem like market competitive prices - but neither was enough. These are nice, but they are not Picassos. And now they are very slightly stigmatized for having not sold. (Who knows, maybe they sell for more privately - if so, more power to the consignor & auction house. It's generally not a good strategy tho.)

It would have been nice to have seen paddles in the air on either of these coins rather then "book or phone bids".

mark

MsMorrisine · May 24, 2016 11:25AM

I am assuming the owner knows how long these will need to be kept.

Coin Finder · May 24, 2016 11:27AM

Pre auction collusion?

MsMorrisine · May 24, 2016 11:28AM

Originally posted by: Coinosaurus
Very odd. $10M for the 1804 $1, and $7M for the 1822 $5 seem like market competitive prices - but neither was enough. These are nice, but they are not Picassos. And now they are very slightly stigmatized for having not sold. (Who knows, maybe they sell for more privately - if so, more power to the consignor & auction house. It's generally not a good strategy tho.)

Hopefully, the coins will always be the coins.

The stigmatization will be on the short-term to maybe mid-term market for them. The word "pall" comes to mind.

Coinosaurus · May 24, 2016 11:34AM

Who knows, maybe there was even an agreement that someone would step in later at some level over the highest bid, as long as the highest bid did not exceed some agreed level. Perhaps someone wanted BOTH lots, but only together, and worked a package deal. All speculation, of course.

As Roadrunner points out, it's safe to assume the house and consignor have advisers who know what they are doing.

roadrunner · May 24, 2016 11:43AM

If a deal is arranged later this year, then this bizzarro auction will be quickly forgotten as the next owner puts the coin away for another 17 yrs.

The bid on the 1822 seemed plenty of money for that coin ($7.5 MILL all in). Not sure why that's wasn't let go. Having been owned by the Pogues for 34 years, it may have been difficult to let go.

It could be the same reason I can't sell my $1,000 coins for $5,000

Contursi bought the 1794 SP66 $ for $3 MILL or so and then advertised for years at nearly 3X that. That didn't deter him. Eventually, a buyer came along at $7 MILL.

coinlieutenant · May 24, 2016 11:47AM

Maybe RR. I know that if it were me and I could have held on to just one coin out of the whole collection, that 1822 would have been the one....

roadrunner · May 24, 2016 11:50AM

Originally posted by: coinlieutenant

Maybe RR. I know that if it were me and I could have held on to just one coin out of the whole collection, that 1822 would have been the one....

For me it would have been only the 1804. PF68 trumps AU50 for 19th century US rarities. Or from the old days, PF65/66 trumps XF45. There are 3 1822's known. Could even be another one out there. Another 1804 dollar showing up would have little to no change on the price structure.

The 1870-s half dime and 1873-cc NA dime are both unique and in 64/65 condition. Both of these sell for 1/3 or so of what the 1822 was "apparently" bid to. Can't quite wrap my head around those comparisons. The 1822 wins the "freshness" award having been off the market for 32 years. But, it just got a tad of tarnish on tonight's appearance.

superpsychmd · May 24, 2016 12:45PM

Maybe they'll end on eBay next week, ya think? At least it would be a lower commission that way.

Justacommeman · May 24, 2016 12:48PM

I learned a lot tonight. Light bulb kind of stuff

mark

AstroJoe · May 24, 2016 12:51PM

Originally posted by: TopographicOceans

It could be the same reason I can't sell my $1,000 coins for $5,000

Wouldn't be the first time this occurred.

roadrunner · May 24, 2016 2:40PM

Originally posted by: superpsychmd

Maybe they'll end on eBay next week, ya think? At least it would be a lower commission that way.

Great Collections would be a better choice.

wondercoin · May 24, 2016 3:02PM

RR: Ebay would only have a $250 max sellers fee - no? LOL

Wondercoin

TopographicOceans · May 24, 2016 3:24PM

PCGS lists the 1822 at $6.5m

and the 1804 for $8.5m

CaptHenway · May 24, 2016 11:24PM

Originally posted by: Justacommeman

I learned a lot tonight. Light bulb kind of stuff

mark

Incandescent, fluorescent or LED?

CaptHenway · May 24, 2016 11:25PM

Originally posted by: Coinosaurus

Very odd. $10M for the 1804 $1, and $7M for the 1822 $5 seem like market competitive prices - but neither was enough. These are nice, but they are not Picassos. And now they are very slightly stigmatized for having not sold. (Who knows, maybe they sell for more privately - if so, more power to the consignor & auction house. It's generally not a good strategy tho.)

There is an old saying "Pigs feed, but hogs get slaughtered."

MonsterCoinz · May 25, 2016 12:05AM

Better 1804 pic.

braddick · May 25, 2016 12:15AM

Originally posted by: TopographicOceans
It could be the same reason I can't sell my $1,000 coins for $5,000

Not quite analogous as that would be like comparing the 1804 dollar as having a market value of 50 million, and no one is declaring that.

TwoSides2aCoin · May 25, 2016 12:24AM

Originally posted by: CaptHenway

Originally posted by: Justacommeman
I learned a lot tonight. Light bulb kind of stuff

mark

Incandescent, fluorescent or LED?

LED, by the nose.,, on a beer budget here.

ranshdow · May 25, 2016 1:18AM

With reserves this high, it's more of an open sale than an auction. You could even call it price discovery if these items were fungible, which they are not.

291fifth · May 25, 2016 1:38AM

Passing on bids that high seems a mistake to me ... but then I never dwelt in the upper reaches of the numismatic market.

asheland · May 25, 2016 1:42AM

Originally posted by: mach1ne
Better 1804 pic.

Beautiful!

Justacommeman · May 25, 2016 1:48AM

Originally posted by: 291fifth

Passing on bids that high seems a mistake to me ... but then I never dwelt in the upper reaches of the numismatic market.

You guys are missing the boat on what happened.

mark

MacCrimmon · May 25, 2016 2:11AM

Maybe the presumed high bidder got stuck on an elevator.

Zoins · May 25, 2016 3:11AM

Originally posted by: Justacommeman

Originally posted by: 291fifth
Passing on bids that high seems a mistake to me ... but then I never dwelt in the upper reaches of the numismatic market.

You guys are missing the boat on what happened.

mark

No paddles and house said they would bid to raise price.

Tyrock · May 25, 2016 4:28AM

It was bizarre alright. It wasn't the auction I was hoping to see.

Justacommeman · May 25, 2016 5:24AM

Anyways there are two to several sides to every story. One boring generally boring and one from a spy novel. It could just of been as simple as a dude wanting to hold onto a couple of his prized possessions.

mark

CaptHenway · May 25, 2016 5:27AM

Originally posted by: Justacommeman

Originally posted by: 291fifth

Passing on bids that high seems a mistake to me ... but then I never dwelt in the upper reaches of the numismatic market.

You guys are missing the boat on what happened.

mark

Up the proverbial tributary without a paddle?

Justacommeman · May 25, 2016 5:35AM

Originally posted by: CaptHenway

Originally posted by: Justacommeman

Originally posted by: 291fifth

Passing on bids that high seems a mistake to me ... but then I never dwelt in the upper reaches of the numismatic market.

You guys are missing the boat on what happened.

mark

Up the proverbial tributary without a paddle?

Most appropriate coming from the Capt. of the USS Double Entendre

mark

EagleEye · May 25, 2016 7:50AM

If I were the highest real bid, I would have felt like I was used.

Gazes · May 25, 2016 7:56AM

I wonder if in anyway it will impact the proceeds and/or bids for Pogue V

WinLoseWin · May 25, 2016 8:01AM

Originally posted by: Justacommeman

Originally posted by: 291fifth

Passing on bids that high seems a mistake to me ... but then I never dwelt in the upper reaches of the numismatic market.

You guys are missing the boat on what happened.

mark

This Reuters article has Sotheby's implying the underbids were real, though not clearly and definitively saying so. I think it would be helpful to know they were real as opposed to it being a meaningless dance of dueling false bids well above what legitimate bids would be.

Sounds like some think that was the case with there being no legitimate under bids. I don't know what the situation was, but it seems extreme to go to the lengths of having fake split bids and all the pausing for time to ponder the next bid if they were not for real.

People want to know. I demand investigations by congress and the Jerry Springer Show! Or is there no difference?

http://www.reuters.com/article...S&feedName=topNews

sellitstore · May 25, 2016 8:15AM

"Two legendary U.S. coins, one of them more than 200 years old,..."

Reuters couldn't even get through the first sentence without an inaccuracy.

"The collection focused on non-machine manufactured currency made from 1793 to the 1830s, said David Tripp, Sotheby's worldwide senior numismatic consultant."

I presume that David Tripp knows that a screw type press is a machine but something got misunderstood somewhere.

"Tuesday's auction marked only the second time in over a century that collectors have a chance to compete for the rare amber-colored coin, which also features Lady Liberty, this time donning a cape with "LIBERTY" printed on its side."

Cape with LIBERTY? She's wearing a cape on her head?

Nic · May 25, 2016 8:21AM

Thanks for the report Mark.

Wabbit2313 · May 25, 2016 9:03AM

Originally posted by: EagleEye
If I were the highest real bid, I would have felt like I was used.

If the highest bidder actually would have won and then found out he was shilled all the way up there, the "used" feeling would have changed to the "got the shaft" feeling very quickly.

privaterarecoincollector · May 25, 2016 12:49PM

I doubt any of these were real bids.

tradedollarnut · May 25, 2016 1:08PM

I would have welcomed another member of the $10M club. There are certainly coins out there that would sell for that amount...well...unless they had a $25M reserve on them.

roadrunner · May 26, 2016 1:02AM

Originally posted by: EagleEye

If I were the highest real bid, I would have felt like I was used.

Especially if you were one of the few big shots who didn't know how high the reserve was set. Apparently or at least by conjecture, the Legend team and others got some word on at least the approximate size of the reserve such that they confidently predicted a NO SALE well before the auction.

The simpler explanation is that "someone" had to bid the coin up to the reserve to help establish current market value. Someone could have been compensated to be the chosen bidder to take it all the way up to reserve....knowing or not knowing whether they'd get the coin or not.

WillieBoyd2 · May 26, 2016 2:09AM

Maybe Pogue should have taken the coins to the "Pawn Stars" television program.

Gazes · May 26, 2016 2:49AM

Maybe this is all part of the game, but I do feel cheated. The Pogue auction centered around these two coins. Of course, the other coins are fantastic but the idea of these two rarities being sold together on the same night was much of the hype. I bought the catalogue. I bought a couple books regarding this historic sale from stacks---one entirely about the 1822. And now it appears that they really weren't for sale. I guess if anything , it has made me even more skeptical of auctions---and maybe that is a good thing.

Justacommeman · May 26, 2016 2:56AM

Originally posted by: Gazes

Maybe this is all part of the game, but I do feel cheated. The Pogue auction centered around these two coins. Of course, the other coins are fantastic but the idea of these two rarities being sold together on the same night was much of the hype. I bought the catalogue. I bought a couple books regarding this historic sale from stacks---one entirely about the 1822. And now it appears that they really weren't for sale. I guess if anything , it has made me even more skeptical of auctions---and maybe that is a good thing.

It is a good thing to be skeptical. It was exactly my takeaway from sitting through it.

mark

CoinRaritiesOnline · May 26, 2016 2:56AM

Originally posted by: Gazes

Maybe this is all part of the game, but I do feel cheated. The Pogue auction centered around these two coins. Of course, the other coins are fantastic but the idea of these two rarities being sold together on the same night was much of the hype. I bought the catalogue. I bought a couple books regarding this historic sale from stacks---one entirely about the 1822. And now it appears that they really weren't for sale. I guess if anything , it has made me even more skeptical of auctions---and maybe that is a good thing.

This is an interesting take.

You are describing this as though it was a football game or other form of entertainment for the public, and not merely a vehicle to match a coin seller with a coin buyer.

Gazes · May 26, 2016 4:19AM

Originally posted by: CoinRaritiesOnline

Originally posted by: Gazes

Maybe this is all part of the game, but I do feel cheated. The Pogue auction centered around these two coins. Of course, the other coins are fantastic but the idea of these two rarities being sold together on the same night was much of the hype. I bought the catalogue. I bought a couple books regarding this historic sale from stacks---one entirely about the 1822. And now it appears that they really weren't for sale. I guess if anything , it has made me even more skeptical of auctions---and maybe that is a good thing.

This is an interesting take.

You are describing this as though it was a football game or other form of entertainment for the public, and not merely a vehicle to match a coin seller with a coin buyer.

I see your point--but disagree from this prospective---although I wasn't bidding on those coins, I do have an interest beyond mere rooting interest. I would say 99% of the people following it were like me to some degree. There are a handful of people in the coin market that could plop down $5,000,000 or more on one coin. But even though I did not bid on these particular coins, I think it goes to the integrity of our marketplace that things will be done in an above board way. If I lose confidence in two coins that are the subject of the most scrutiny the coin world has to offer---how does that impact me when I am considering bidding on that key date missing from my set for $5000? If these coins had been outright sales for say 11 million and 7 million each---we would have heard that the coin market is healthy and this sale was a good omen for all coins. I think it is fair to say that given what some have described as a "bizzare" result, that it too may reflect on the overall health of the coin market.

Justacommeman · May 26, 2016 4:26AM

Well it was sort of like a football game. There were time outs, video reviews, punts, scoring errors and challenge flags or so it seemed.

mark

WinLoseWin · May 26, 2016 4:30AM

Originally posted by: CoinRaritiesOnline

Originally posted by: Gazes

Maybe this is all part of the game, but I do feel cheated. The Pogue auction centered around these two coins. Of course, the other coins are fantastic but the idea of these two rarities being sold together on the same night was much of the hype. I bought the catalogue. I bought a couple books regarding this historic sale from stacks---one entirely about the 1822. And now it appears that they really weren't for sale. I guess if anything , it has made me even more skeptical of auctions---and maybe that is a good thing.

This is an interesting take.

You are describing this as though it was a football game or other form of entertainment for the public, and not merely a vehicle to match a coin seller with a coin buyer.

The books on the collection and the 1822 were sold as a form of entertainment for the public, not just to the likely bidders. I wonder when SB knew the reserves made them unlikely to sell. Was it only recently or from the beginning when the collection was consigned?

Rittenhouse · May 26, 2016 4:47AM

As one attendee pointed out to me, the 1822 was the owner's favorite coin. As to the 1804, the Pogue specimen 1804 is the finest known regardless of whether one uses the old or new grade. And, when you have that much money, you can well afford to do whatever you wish.

sellitstore · May 26, 2016 4:48AM

No reason to make more of this than what it is.

Pouge currently loves and values these two coins more and can better afford to own them than anyone else. So they stay with him, for now.

No doubt that an auction with a 94% sell through rate in terms of number of lots is quite successful while a sell through rate of under 50% in terms of value is pretty bad. It was unusual, to be sure.

Pogue IV

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