Are you VAM experts sure this is one of the original micro-"o" counterfeits, and it is not a modern counterfeit? LOL at the thought of counterfeiting a valuable counterfeit. It just seems too good to be true, as these micro-"o" counterfeits are almost always found in well-circulated condition.
Are you VAM experts sure this is one of the original micro-"o" counterfeits, and it is not a modern counterfeit? LOL at the thought of counterfeiting a valuable counterfeit. It just seems too good to be true, as these micro-"o" counterfeits are almost always found in well-circulated condition.
The thought had crossed my mind, but I see nothing in the excellent photographs that make me question it being an "original counterfeit."
TD
Numismatist. 54 year member ANA. Former ANA Senior Authenticator. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and ANA Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Also won the PNG's Robert Friedberg Award for "The Enigmatic Lincoln Cents of 1922," Available now from Whitman or Amazon.
I collect these and I have given talks about the "privately made" VAMs at my local coin clubs.
I believe my example to be the ONLY privately-made micro-o, of any date (1896-o, 1900-o, 1902-o) that is in uncirculated condition.
In fact, there is only one other coin known in the ENTIRE privately-made VAM family (28 different die pairs) that is considered uncirculated. It is a 1901-O (normal O) VAM-60.
Great pickup dcarr. Not being a Morgan $ collector, I was not even aware that these privately stamped coins existed. Is there an article or single place listing and describing all of these "privately made" coins? Thanks for sharing. Jim
Here is a link to the presentation that I've given at local coin clubs. There are 36 "slides", but a lot of it is pictures and it goes pretty fast (just click on the "NEXT >" button at the top each time): Vintage Counterfeit Morgan Silver Dollars
Originally posted by: ebaybuyer congrats on a very nice piece, goes to show, there are some goodies out there for those that take the time to look.
I just can't see someone paying 3 figures for such an item. I do however commend your research ability.
...that's because that someone would have to pay 4 figures for such an item...but in this case, being that one of the Top Collectors of this series found the coin in the wild...I would guess, if that "someone" wanted this exact coin...they would have to pry it from the cold dead hands of the OP themselves to get it
DCARR, that presentation is quite good! I didn't realize you were such an expert on these babies!
Thanks,
As a private minter myself, I have an interest in historical privately-minted items My suspicion is that these were made by former New Orleans Mint employees after that mint shut down in 1909, which makes them especially interesting.
I'm credited with discovering three of the 28 known VAMs in the "privately-made family":
excellent read, being a collector of contemporary counterfeit coins myself, ive made a mental note to own one of these, probably would put more effort into it if I collected morgans
regardless of how many posts I have, I don't consider myself an "expert" at anything
dcarr, Thanks for sharing your photos and presentation on these interesting counterfeits. You are probably aware there is an account of meeting a person who claimed to have forged similar silver 8 reales coins in the 1920s, in SwamperBob's book "Counterfeit Portrait Eight-Reales: The Un-real Reales". In the book Robert Gurney discusses the possible relationship with the micro-o Morgan counterfeits. I have a copy of the book at home, and don't recall the exact details at present. http://www.coinbooks.org/esylum_v17n37a08.html
Originally posted by: yosclimber dcarr, Thanks for sharing your photos and presentation on these interesting counterfeits. You are probably aware there is an account of meeting a person who claimed to have forged similar silver 8 reales coins in the 1920s, in SwamperBob's book "Counterfeit Portrait Eight-Reales: The Un-real Reales". In the book Robert Gurney discusses the possible relationship with the micro-o Morgan counterfeits. I have a copy of the book at home, and don't recall the exact details at present. http://www.coinbooks.org/esylum_v17n37a08.html
Thanks, that is really interesting. Do you know how to contact the author, Robert Richard Gurney ? I'm wondering about the results of what was discussed in the last paragraph of that E-Sylum article: "A recent test run at RTI International has returned a preliminary signature match with an example of the 1896-O micro O Morgan dollar. I am resubmitting both coins to RTI next week for XRF re-testing with a brand new state of the art XRF testing machine which will do far finer analysis of the trace contamination (down to 1 ppm for 72 elements) in the hopes of proving that the source of both coins is identical."
I'd also like to ask the author if the "self-confessed counterfeiter" he met was from the south (New Orleans area, perhaps).
Daniel, There's a link on this page which should allow you to send an email to Robert Gurney: http://www.coincommunity.com/f...sp?mode=display&id=119 He discusses his conversation with the counterfeiter, and his attempts to verify the stories on pages 118-127 of his book, which can be obtained for $45 from amazon. Here are some highlights: - the counterfeit striking operation was in Massachusetts, from at least 1893-1930. - the silver blanks were rolled in a separate facility - he met the counterfeiter some time in the 1960-65 period - the counterfeiter said the dies were created off site with a lathing operation - the counterfeiter warned Gurney not to buy the micro-o Morgans because they were counterfeit (they had just recently been discovered, and Gurney was considering investing in them)
Originally posted by: yosclimber Daniel, There's a link on this page which should allow you to send an email to Robert Gurney: http://www.coincommunity.com/f...sp?mode=display&id=119 He discusses his conversation with the counterfeiter, and his attempts to verify the stories on pages 118-127 of his book, which can be obtained for $45 from amazon. Here are some highlights: - the counterfeit striking operation was in Massachusetts, from at least 1893-1930. - the silver blanks were rolled in a separate facility - he met the counterfeiter some time in the 1960-65 period - the counterfeiter said the dies were created off site with a lathing operation - the counterfeiter warned Gurney not to buy the micro-o Morgans because they were counterfeit (they had just recently been discovered, and Gurney was considering investing in them)
"the counterfeiter warned Gurney not to buy the micro-o Morgans because they were counterfeit"
Ok, now that you mention it, I have heard something about that before.
I don't doubt that the "counterfeiter" told Gurney something like that. But something just doesn't seem right here. The supposed elder "counterfeiter" seems to be boasting (and perhaps making things up) to impress a younger person. If this discussion took place in the early 1960s, and the coins were made prior to 1930, I doubt that the real counterfeiter would have the numismatic knowledge required to realize that 1896/1900/1901/1902 micro-o coins could not be US Mint products.
the counterfeiter warned Gurney not to buy the micro-o Morgans because they were counterfeit
Ok, now that you mention it, I have heard something about that before.
I don't doubt that the "counterfeiter" told Gurney something like that. But something just doesn't seem right here. The supposed elder "counterfeiter" seems to be boasting (and perhaps making things up) to impress a younger person. If this discussion took place in the early 1960s, and the coins were made prior to 1930, I doubt that the real counterfeiter would have the numismatic knowledge required to realize that 1896/1900/1901/1902 micro-o coins could not be US Mint products.
I agree it's unlikely that the counterfeiter knew the dies they used were micro-o.
But my brief summary may have distorted what was written in the book, because other recently (1960s) discovered VAM varieties were involved in the conversation as well. Here's the exact text from p.119:
This same old man was also the first person ever to warn Gurney not to buy the micro-O New Orleans dollar coins, or any other of the new varieties of Morgan dollars that might come to light. Why? Because "... they were counterfeit." This comment came after the micro-O had made news and was in response to Gurney's comment that he thought the micro-O and other Morgan varieties might be a good investment.
So it might mean that the counterfeiter knew they had made Morgans, but not which particular ones.
Comments
I'd just like to say: YOU SUCK!
Wanted to see your pics first but I do AGREE that YOU SUCK!
A few general notes to answer some of the questions raised.
TD
Are you VAM experts sure this is one of the original micro-"o" counterfeits, and it is not a modern counterfeit? LOL at the thought of counterfeiting a valuable counterfeit. It just seems too good to be true, as these micro-"o" counterfeits are almost always found in well-circulated condition.
The thought had crossed my mind, but I see nothing in the excellent photographs that make me question it being an "original counterfeit."
TD
sick!
you suck!
.
I collect these and I have given talks about the "privately made" VAMs at my local coin clubs.
I believe my example to be the ONLY privately-made micro-o, of any date (1896-o, 1900-o, 1902-o) that is in uncirculated condition.
In fact, there is only one other coin known in the ENTIRE privately-made VAM family (28 different die pairs) that is considered uncirculated. It is a 1901-O (normal O) VAM-60.
Great pickup dcarr. Not being a Morgan $ collector, I was not even aware that these privately stamped coins existed.
Is there an article or single place listing and describing all of these "privately made" coins?
Thanks for sharing.
Jim
Here is a link to the presentation that I've given at local coin clubs. There are 36 "slides", but a lot of it is pictures and it goes pretty fast (just click on the "NEXT >" button at the top each time):
Vintage Counterfeit Morgan Silver Dollars
congrats on a very nice piece, goes to show, there are some goodies out there for those that take the time to look.
I just can't see someone paying 3 figures for such an item. I do however commend your research ability.
...that's because that someone would have to pay 4 figures for such an item...but in this case, being that one of the Top Collectors of this series found the coin in the wild...I would guess, if that "someone" wanted this exact coin...they would have to pry it from the cold dead hands of the OP themselves to get it
DCARR, that presentation is quite good! I didn't realize you were such an expert on these babies!
DCARR, that presentation is quite good! I didn't realize you were such an expert on these babies!
Thanks,
As a private minter myself, I have an interest in historical privately-minted items
My suspicion is that these were made by former New Orleans Mint employees after that mint shut down in 1909, which makes them especially interesting.
I'm credited with discovering three of the 28 known VAMs in the "privately-made family":
1893-O VAM-7
1893-O VAM-8
1902-O VAM-92
why didnt you add 01-o to this page?
.
.
why didnt you add 01-o to this page?
.
A couple of reasons:
1) 1901-o micro-o was not known to exist at the time of the 2005 PCGS announcement.
2) I could not find any decent pictures of the mint mark of the only known example of the 1901-o micro-o.
Note that I do show the 1901-o micro-o on page 31 of my presentation.
Listed Privately Made VAMs
Thanks for sharing your photos and presentation on these interesting counterfeits.
You are probably aware there is an account of meeting a person who claimed to have forged similar silver 8 reales coins in the 1920s,
in SwamperBob's book "Counterfeit Portrait Eight-Reales: The Un-real Reales".
In the book Robert Gurney discusses the possible relationship with the micro-o Morgan counterfeits.
I have a copy of the book at home, and don't recall the exact details at present.
http://www.coinbooks.org/esylum_v17n37a08.html
dcarr,
Thanks for sharing your photos and presentation on these interesting counterfeits.
You are probably aware there is an account of meeting a person who claimed to have forged similar silver 8 reales coins in the 1920s,
in SwamperBob's book "Counterfeit Portrait Eight-Reales: The Un-real Reales".
In the book Robert Gurney discusses the possible relationship with the micro-o Morgan counterfeits.
I have a copy of the book at home, and don't recall the exact details at present.
http://www.coinbooks.org/esylum_v17n37a08.html
Thanks, that is really interesting.
Do you know how to contact the author, Robert Richard Gurney ?
I'm wondering about the results of what was discussed in the last paragraph of that E-Sylum article:
"A recent test run at RTI International has returned a preliminary signature match with an example of the 1896-O micro O Morgan dollar. I am resubmitting both coins to RTI next week for XRF re-testing with a brand new state of the art XRF testing machine which will do far finer analysis of the trace contamination (down to 1 ppm for 72 elements) in the hopes of proving that the source of both coins is identical."
I'd also like to ask the author if the "self-confessed counterfeiter" he met was from the south (New Orleans area, perhaps).
There's a link on this page which should allow you to send an email to Robert Gurney:
http://www.coincommunity.com/f...sp?mode=display&id=119
He discusses his conversation with the counterfeiter, and his attempts to verify the stories on pages 118-127 of his book, which can be obtained for $45 from amazon.
Here are some highlights:
- the counterfeit striking operation was in Massachusetts, from at least 1893-1930.
- the silver blanks were rolled in a separate facility
- he met the counterfeiter some time in the 1960-65 period
- the counterfeiter said the dies were created off site with a lathing operation
- the counterfeiter warned Gurney not to buy the micro-o Morgans because they were counterfeit (they had just recently been discovered, and Gurney was considering investing in them)
Daniel,
There's a link on this page which should allow you to send an email to Robert Gurney:
http://www.coincommunity.com/f...sp?mode=display&id=119
He discusses his conversation with the counterfeiter, and his attempts to verify the stories on pages 118-127 of his book, which can be obtained for $45 from amazon.
Here are some highlights:
- the counterfeit striking operation was in Massachusetts, from at least 1893-1930.
- the silver blanks were rolled in a separate facility
- he met the counterfeiter some time in the 1960-65 period
- the counterfeiter said the dies were created off site with a lathing operation
- the counterfeiter warned Gurney not to buy the micro-o Morgans because they were counterfeit (they had just recently been discovered, and Gurney was considering investing in them)
"the counterfeiter warned Gurney not to buy the micro-o Morgans because they were counterfeit"
Ok, now that you mention it, I have heard something about that before.
I don't doubt that the "counterfeiter" told Gurney something like that.
But something just doesn't seem right here. The supposed elder "counterfeiter" seems to be boasting (and perhaps making things up) to impress a younger person. If this discussion took place in the early 1960s, and the coins were made prior to 1930, I doubt that the real counterfeiter would have the numismatic knowledge required to realize that 1896/1900/1901/1902 micro-o coins could not be US Mint products.
I don't doubt that the "counterfeiter" told Gurney something like that.
But something just doesn't seem right here. The supposed elder "counterfeiter" seems to be boasting (and perhaps making things up) to impress a younger person. If this discussion took place in the early 1960s, and the coins were made prior to 1930, I doubt that the real counterfeiter would have the numismatic knowledge required to realize that 1896/1900/1901/1902 micro-o coins could not be US Mint products.
I agree it's unlikely that the counterfeiter knew the dies they used were micro-o.
But my brief summary may have distorted what was written in the book, because other recently (1960s) discovered VAM varieties were involved in the conversation as well.
Here's the exact text from p.119:
So it might mean that the counterfeiter knew they had made Morgans, but not which particular ones.
This thread just keeps getting cooler and cooler.
+1. Absolutely.