Sorry for not posting the seller's information. Some warned that if I do, that it could come back to haunt me, but at this point, I don't care. I will post the eBay ID now.
As for the money, I truly do not care about the $48. I have been scammed before for more and often it is less expensive to just take the hit and move on, considering the value of time. Every store has shrinkage, and we have been fortunate overall.
The reason that I am going to fight this aggressively is that this same scam could be applied to much more expensive coins. What if this punk is just testing the waters with inexpensive coins?
Originally posted by: segoja How is there a return privilege on bullion? I thought that category was exempt
A seller can choose to not offer a return privilege on bullion without it affecting his seller FVF discount. In this way it is "exempt" from returns. Even if there is no return privilege, a buyer can always return items that are Significantly Not As Described (SNAD), in this case the buyer claimed "counterfeit." SNAD claims get full support from ebay, even if they are not valid.
Government is the great fiction through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else. - Bastiat
I've sent this message to eBay this evening, and I encourage anyone else here to do likewise. Feel free to copy and paste the content of my message.
This message is in regard to item # 121864663083.
The seller of the above item is a reputable person in the field. Their predicament is fully outlined in the following link:https://forums.collec............re!
Your company, namely eBay, has allowed the pendulum of credibility to swing so far in the wrong direction, that you have permanently damaged your brand among those of us who were once active and satisfied sellers. You are perpetuating FRAUD of the worst kind, namely RAMPANT PETTY THEFT. I, AND MANY THOUSANDS OF OTHERS WILL NOT PARTICIPATE IN THE EBAY COMMUNITY AS A SELLER UNTIL YOU RESOLVE THIS ACT OF WILLFUL IGNORANCE OF THE RAMPANT LEVEL OF PETTY THEFT FROM REPUTABLE SELLERS. YOUR CORPORATE GREED HAS NO SHAME.
this is a direct result of "no negative feedback for buyers" D-bags like this can steal literally thousands of dollars before ebay will even consider taking action. local law enforcement does NOTHING if there isnt anything in it for them. ebay and paypal are knowingly assisting and encouraging internet fraud
regardless of how many posts I have, I don't consider myself an "expert" at anything
There is an option I would suggest, go sue the guy. While it may be an inconvenience, I would go get him. To defray the costs we could fund the matter as a group, I would offer $200 toward costs. It's possible there may even be a suit (lawyer) in the same area on the forum. I'm in Michigan, and if he's here, I would come out of retirement and do it pro bono.
Originally posted by: kiyote How do the Big Boys like Apmex deal with this issue?
feepay indemnifies the bigboy bullion sellers.
Just want to add that there is a process that you can go through to have feepay make a courtesy refund to you. If you're a power seller, navigate your way to the Power Seller Business forum and ask for the details of the process to be made whole after a "buyer" returns a counterfeit item. It requires filing reports with different agencies. DO NOT call feepay and escalate / whine / cry, or anything similar. THAT is a mark against YOU!
Just follow the process that was designed by an aggrieved seller if you want your money back.
feepay does not care about your account. They have already lost ten of thousands of great sellers including half of their top 1000 US seller base, and I don't see them gnashing their teeth over it.
Buyer fraud is rampant on feepay. It is probably the second most discussed issue on their forums after their asinine defect policies.
Sorry for not posting the seller's information. Some warned that if I do, that it could come back to haunt me, but at this point, I don't care. I will post the eBay ID now.
As for the money, I truly do not care about the $48. I have been scammed before for more and often it is less expensive to just take the hit and move on, considering the value of time. Every store has shrinkage, and we have been fortunate overall.
The reason that I am going to fight this aggressively is that this same scam could be applied to much more expensive coins. What if this punk is just testing the waters with inexpensive coins?
Or you (or one of us) waits for him to sell something on Ebay then pull the same scam back on him.
They do not sell very often, they did get a neg 3 yars ago and say they own a small resale boutique. -> Negative feedback rating Bought 1 wk ago; told me today item "recently sold in the store." What store? Buyer: r***j ( 686Purple star icon for feedback score in between 500 to 999) More than a year ago
?Reply by pookster0904 (Feb-08-13 06:11): I do apologize. I own a small resale boutique. These things happen & I am sorry.
And, I forgot to add, send your coins in sealed flips, and indicate that there will be no returns if the coins are removed from the original holders, or the holders are tampered with.
This is what I have done on the few raw coins that I have sold in the past.
oih82w8 = Oh I Hate To Wait _defectus patientia_aka...Dr. Defecto - Curator of RMO's
I don't run many auctions so this idea is easy for me but I like selling with a high BIN and accepting offers. This way I can see who is making the offer as well as amount. I review the potential buyers feedback to get an idea who I am dealing with.
There is an option I would suggest, go sue the guy. While it may be an inconvenience, I would go get him. To defray the costs we could fund the matter as a group, I would offer $200 toward costs. It's possible there may even be a suit (lawyer) in the same area on the forum. I'm in Michigan, and if he's here, I would come out of retirement and do it pro bono.
This takes "Mad as hell and wont take it anymore" to a whole new level.
"Inspiration exists, but it has to find you working" Pablo Picasso
Originally posted by: JCLIGHTBRIGADE There is an option I would suggest, go sue the guy. While it may be an inconvenience, I would go get him. To defray the costs we could fund the matter as a group, I would offer $200 toward costs. It's possible there may even be a suit (lawyer) in the same area on the forum. I'm in Michigan, and if he's here, I would come out of retirement and do it pro bono.
This takes "Mad as hell and wont take it anymore" to a whole new level.
Unless new information is offered, simply based on what's been expressed within this thread, the OP would lose his case.
The only way to prevent this type of fraud is for ebay to set up mail receiving offices across America where they verify the contents and to have the recipients come pick those packages. But on the same note, if the item is common enough, 8 million, why couldn't the buyer have just bought locally?
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
Originally posted by: RichieURich And, I forgot to add, send your coins in sealed flips, and indicate that there will be no returns if the coins are removed from the original holders, or the holders are tampered with.
This is what I have done on the few raw coins that I have sold in the past.
Sealing the item, original packaging, etc., makes no difference whatsoever in a SNAD claim.
I had a tire kicker crack the coin from a PCGS slab and was forced by feepay to accept the return.
Regarding refusing a return of a SNAD: In doing so, you are generally forfeiting the right to recover the item when feepay, PayPal, or the credit card issuer, rules against you. And, that's very highly probable.
Originally posted by: leothelyon The only way to prevent this type of fraud is for ebay to set up mail receiving offices across America where they verify the contents and to have the recipients come pick those packages. But on the same note, if the item is common enough, 8 million, why couldn't the buyer have just bought locally?
Leo
feepay set up a system open to fraud because it's your money and not theirs. They simply don't care about your problems as a seller. They've chosen this path ostensibly to build their business on your wallet. This type of fraud is not much of an issue with professional merchants' independent web sites and their credit card processors.
I would definitely fight him. File dispute with ebay, possibly threaten reporting him to LE or USPS. He would back off or be reported to USPS for mail fraud which this is.
Originally posted by: JCLIGHTBRIGADE There is an option I would suggest, go sue the guy. While it may be an inconvenience, I would go get him. To defray the costs we could fund the matter as a group, I would offer $200 toward costs. It's possible there may even be a suit (lawyer) in the same area on the forum. I'm in Michigan, and if he's here, I would come out of retirement and do it pro bono.
This takes "Mad as hell and wont take it anymore" to a whole new level.
Unless new information is offered, simply based on what's been expressed within this thread, the OP would lose his case.
Expensive without a favorable return.
Really, then maybe you've never tried a case and or don't know a good lawyer. I'd rip this clown up in court. He'd likely wet himself.
Originally posted by: JCLIGHTBRIGADE There is an option I would suggest, go sue the guy. While it may be an inconvenience, I would go get him. To defray the costs we could fund the matter as a group, I would offer $200 toward costs. It's possible there may even be a suit (lawyer) in the same area on the forum. I'm in Michigan, and if he's here, I would come out of retirement and do it pro bono.
This takes "Mad as hell and wont take it anymore" to a whole new level.
Unless new information is offered, simply based on what's been expressed within this thread, the OP would lose his case.
Expensive without a favorable return.
Really, then maybe you've never tried a case and or don't know a good lawyer. I'd rip this clown up in court. He'd likely wet himself.
Remember in Jan 2015 ,someone over in BST paid $390 for a roll of Silver eagles .. then never got the Eagles .... that should have been a tried case
Originally posted by: numisma You are going to love this one: So I call eBay to explain the situation. They told me that since I accepted the return (I offer 14 day returns and I pay the return shipping), I agreed with them that the coins I sold were fake. Can you believe it? I tried to explain to the eBay rep that counterfeit Pandas are sold on eBay daily, and that it is too easy for a crook to buy some counterfeits, then buy some genuine coins, and then return the fakes to the legitimate seller. The response was that I should work it out with the buyer.
I asked eBay to check the buyer's history and to tell me how many times he has asked to return similar items, but they would not tell me. I am sure he has done this to others, and looking at his feedback, he only buys from coin dealers.
Now if I try to raise a stink with the buyer, he will leave a negative. At this point I really do not care. I will take it. This is a small deal in terms of dollars, but I am taking it personally since it is such an egregious scam.
CALL THE POLICE. Seriously. This is fraud.
^This. File a police report and a report with your local Postal Inspector. Then contact the police in this buyers area. Then send the police report to eBay and they should give you a "one time refund". It will be quite a pain in the a** but hopefully it will get the point across.
Originally posted by: sparky64 Boy-o-boy numisma. Between this and the ridicules PayPal BS, I don't know how you keep your sanity.
I understand that the Panda situation is not a big money deal but returning fakes right to your doorstep feels aggressive. That would infuriate me as well.
Another thing would be to file a civil case against the buyer after you have filed the police report. Ask for damages, track you lost time and go after legal fees. Use his address and have him/her served with lawsuit. You could do it in small claims court for a nominal fee.
Originally posted by: GoBust Another thing would be to file a civil case against the buyer after you have filed the police report. Ask for damages, track you lost time and go after legal fees. Use his address and have him/her served with lawsuit. You could do it in small claims court for a nominal fee.
I like this idea, but it still leaves some hurdles. (1). The OP would likely need to travel to the location of the buyer to file in small claims court and be there for the court date. (2). Although I trust the OP's word, the whole case rests on seller's word vs. buyer's word. There's no evidence to submit to court that either side can prove their position.
Also, I believe in small claims court you can only file for the actual loss and you can't file to cover the cost of filing.
The caveat to the small claims court idea is that if the buyer doesn't show, the OP seller wins by default. At least then there would be a legal means to recover the loss.
numisma, one of the first steps I would take would be to go through the list of sellers that pookster0904 has supposedly purchased from (taken from their FB summary) and contact every one of them to inquire if any others have had a similar experience. I would even go to the extent of making contact by telephone with prior sellers, as well as within the eBay messaging system to establish a record of your investigation of pookster0904. If it so happens that someone else has been scammed, it would be to your advantage to collaborate with them and report as a collective group.
If similar incidents have occurred and they are proactively reported collectively, at least there may be some chance of prosecution or banishment from eBay. You could certainly advise them of your experience with pookster0904, and encourage them to place him on their blocked list if they want to avoid a similar experience.
I'd sort of think like DaveW. Hijacked account or maybe Pookster is fronting for a 3rd party that is the crook. Some of those guys solicit little used Ebay account holders to run their auctions through. The seller has no clue as to what's going on other than they get a percentage. Still, for 6 yrs and only 125 transactions, and this one at $48, there's not a lot of upside to Pookie's business model. Lucky to get +$1,000 per year for all their troubles. Now if Pookie is a 16 year old who has been doing this from his mom's basement since he was 10, that's good change for a youngster.
Credit cards are hardly fool proof to scams like this. If your card company doesn't agree with you, you are still out the money. Many people here have reported such losses. Without Ebay supporting sellers too, the model is broken.
^This. File a police report and a report with your local Postal Inspector. Then contact the police in this buyers area. Then send the police report to eBay and they should give you a "one time refund". It will be quite a pain in the a** but hopefully it will get the point across.
For $48? No one is going to care. I followed this exact same course of action plus additional steps of contacting both police jurisdictions involved, USPS internet crimes, local USPS postmaster, state Attorney General and consumer protection, Ebay, etc. My case was open and shut over $2,100. The proof was indisputable. The seller agreed. I knew where they lived and even called the seller on the phone. In the end it didn't matter one bit because no one cared or took further action. I wasn't about to travel 1,000 miles to Atlanta and hope for a small claims verdict that the seller would probably never pay anyways. The only effect of this entire incident was that I negged them....lol. They didn't even bother to neg me back which they could have at that time. All the jurisdictions above will talk to you or read your report the first time around. But at some point, they will just ignore you. The days of the USPS, Ebay, local police or whomever being your friend are long gone. The police where the crime was committed don't care about Joe Schmoe 1,000 miles away. They care more about their "citizen"/taxpayer than you.
Numisma--Sorry to hear about this. I agree with poster immediately above. For $40, it is hardly worth the effort.
Still, it is an important issue and you might find some legal/coin collector sympathy for this cause. Were this in my area, I might be inclined to take it on. If a case were to be filed, it is not a slam dunk. In other words, who is to say that an unscrupulous seller would not do the same thing....post real coins and send counterfeits while then claiming he sent the real ones. Not a bad scam. Your reputation on the boards gives you credence here that you would not have in court. However, you have your seller pics and the actions of the buyer in purchasing counterfeits is pretty damning. All the best to you. Where is the buyer from?
This is the kind of thing that does more damage to your state of mind than the wallet. When something like this happens to me, it runs around in my head and even costs me sleep. I'll wake up in the middle of the night thinking about it and can't get back to sleep. It also makes me sad and I begin to lose faith in humanity. I am wary of eBay now just because stuff like this has happened and it makes me nuts.
What I'm saying is; there is a lot of damage being done beyond the $48. People who engage in scams like this have no empathy or conscience. They don't think about how they are messing with you, they only think about how "clever" they are.
This slob has to be made to suffer somehow. That is my take on it anyway. Maybe we can figure out a "campaign" where we do something relentless until this worm relents and makes good on his theft. Teach him that there is a victim and damage caused by his actions.
One thing you might do is try to go up the ladder at eBay. I've had a couple of similar experiences and it really depends on who you talk to when you complain. Some of the customer dis-service people there are worthless and really have no idea of what you are telling them. They don't understand your frustration and just want to end an uncomfortable call. On the other hand I've had a couple of people at eBay actually help me and take steps to make the right thing happen. Be persistent and keep calling until you get someone who can REALLY help you.
Good luck with this and if you need me to do anything to help just PM me. If someone really wants to follow through on a campaign, I'm in. Again, PM and let me know what you're thinking.
Since I read some more of this I decided to post some more. Short story cause I am a bad typer. Decided to sue a neighbor above my property, looked at the cost involved and decided to go small claims court for 10k. I have spent over 700 just trying to get the guy served, he jumps around like a rabbit and while he owns the property above me he does not live there, everytime we locate him and get new papers from the court and hire a process server he is gone. I corrected the issue out of my pocket and moved on.
I have been thru the court system a few times on both sides. The only winners are the lawyers.
No one ( official) is going to put any time in over 50 bucks
There are lousy people out there and you found one
If my business only got clipped for 50 a moth I would be thrilled, I have quit filing judgements on my evictions. In 15 years I have never been able to collect ONE of them. No reason to spend anymore money.
I would rather spend free time enjoying myself than being frustrated that some loser beat me out of 500 bucks. In the end he is going to have to spend a lot more than the 500 he beat me out of.
Mark NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!! working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
First Sellers scamming buyers...now buyers scamming sellers. Ebay draws in worst in humanity. I would never buy a coin on Ebay, and stopped selling once I rid myself of my junk silver.
I'd rather buy Pamp Suisse gold bricks from camel dealer on the silk road than spend a dime on Ebay.
"Just because you were born on 3rd base doesn't mean you hit a triple"
Originally posted by: coindeuce numisma, one of the first steps I would take would be to go through the list of sellers that pookster0904 has supposedly purchased from (taken from their FB summary) and contact every one of them to inquire if any others have had a similar experience.
Ebay now purposely scrambles their ID in feedback just for this reason - contact by a third party.
Government is the great fiction through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else. - Bastiat
numisma, one of the first steps I would take would be to go through the list of sellers that pookster0904 has supposedly purchased from (taken from their FB summary) and contact every one of them to inquire if any others have had a similar experience.
Ebay now purposely scrambles their ID in feedback just for this reason - contact by a third party.
Let me walk you through it derryb, so you know that I don't make unsubstantiated statements here.
1) Left click the eBay "advanced search" link at the top right of the eBay Home page.
2) Select "Find a member" search function. Enter the eBay member's ID or email address in the search box. Enter the posted Captcha code in the box below. Click the big blue search buttonbelow that.
3) From the list of close or exact match member ID's, click on the FB rating of the member sought.
4) On the selected member's FB rating, look at the plainly visible seller's ID's. I'm looking at the openly displayed ID's of every member who has sold to pookster0904 since they became a member in 2009.
I could do a screen shot for you, but I know you're capable of following my instructions.
numisma, one of the first steps I would take would be to go through the list of sellers that pookster0904 has supposedly purchased from (taken from their FB summary) and contact every one of them to inquire if any others have had a similar experience.
Ebay now purposely scrambles their ID in feedback just for this reason - contact by a third party.
Let me walk you through it derryb, so you know that I don't make unsubstantiated statements here.
1) Left click the eBay "advanced search" link at the top right of the eBay Home page.
2) Select "Find a member" search function. Enter the eBay member's ID or email address in the search box. Enter the posted Captcha code in the box below. Click the big blue search buttonbelow that.
3) From the list of close or exact match member ID's, click on the FB rating of the member sought.
4) On the selected member's FB rating, look at the plainly visible seller's ID's. I'm looking at the openly displayed ID's of every member who has sold to pookster0904 since they became a member in 2009.
I could do a screen shot for you, but I know you're capable of following my instructions.
That is very good info!
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Originally posted by: coindeuce numisma, one of the first steps I would take would be to go through the list of sellers that pookster0904 has supposedly purchased from (taken from their FB summary) and contact every one of them to inquire if any others have had a similar experience.
Ebay now purposely scrambles their ID in feedback just for this reason - contact by a third party.
Let me walk you through it derryb, so you know that I don't make unsubstantiated statements here. 1) Left click the eBay "advanced search" link at the top right of the eBay Home page. 2) Select "Find a member" search function. Enter the eBay member's ID or email address in the search box. Enter the posted Captcha code in the box below. Click the big blue search buttonbelow that. 3) From the list of close or exact match member ID's, click on the FB rating of the member sought. 4) On the selected member's FB rating, look at the plainly visible seller's ID's. I'm looking at the openly displayed ID's of every member who has sold to pookster0904 since they became a member in 2009. I could do a screen shot for you, but I know you're capable of following my instructions.
Good workaround to sidestep the normally scrambled IDs when one views feedback by simply clicking on a members feedback number. Good trick, thanks.
Government is the great fiction through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else. - Bastiat
Originally posted by: UMCane First Sellers scamming buyers...now buyers scamming sellers. Ebay draws in worst in humanity. I would never buy a coin on Ebay, and stopped selling once I rid myself of my junk silver.
I'd rather buy Pamp Suisse gold bricks from camel dealer on the silk road than spend a dime on Ebay.
It is also back to sellers screwing eBay as long as eBay allows massive presales. A solid for awhile seller makes a big surge in sales/presales and then drops off the face of the earth. After 2-3 weeks the negs start coming in and eBay starts 'buyer guaranteeing' money back. Allowing pre-sales only compoumds and delays the issue - "This is a pre-sale and shipping will not begin until release date on 4/15"... 100 available.
Comments
Sorry for not posting the seller's information. Some warned that if I do, that it could come back to haunt me, but at this point, I don't care. I will post the eBay ID now.
As for the money, I truly do not care about the $48. I have been scammed before for more and often it is less expensive to just take the hit and move on, considering the value of time. Every store has shrinkage, and we have been fortunate overall.
The reason that I am going to fight this aggressively is that this same scam could be applied to much more expensive coins. What if this punk is just testing the waters with inexpensive coins?
Anyway, here it is:
The buyer
Or you (or one of us) waits for him to sell something on Ebay then pull the same scam back on him.
How is there a return privilege on bullion? I thought that category was exempt
A seller can choose to not offer a return privilege on bullion without it affecting his seller FVF discount. In this way it is "exempt" from returns. Even if there is no return privilege, a buyer can always return items that are Significantly Not As Described (SNAD), in this case the buyer claimed "counterfeit." SNAD claims get full support from ebay, even if they are not valid.
Government is the great fiction through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else. - Bastiat
This message is in regard to item # 121864663083.
The seller of the above item is a reputable person in the field. Their predicament is fully outlined in the following link: https://forums.collec............re!
Your company, namely eBay, has allowed the pendulum of credibility to swing so far in the wrong direction, that you have permanently damaged your brand among those of us who were once active and satisfied sellers. You are perpetuating FRAUD of the worst kind, namely RAMPANT PETTY THEFT. I, AND MANY THOUSANDS OF OTHERS WILL NOT PARTICIPATE IN THE EBAY COMMUNITY AS A SELLER UNTIL YOU RESOLVE THIS ACT OF WILLFUL IGNORANCE OF THE RAMPANT LEVEL OF PETTY THEFT FROM REPUTABLE SELLERS. YOUR CORPORATE GREED HAS NO SHAME.
You can send a copy of this message to: http://contact.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll
"Everything is on its way to somewhere. Everything." - George Malley, Phenomenon
http://www.american-legacy-coins.com
I hate thieves
+1
Steve
How do the Big Boys like Apmex deal with this issue?
feepay indemnifies the bigboy bullion sellers.
Just want to add that there is a process that you can go through to have feepay make a courtesy refund to you. If you're a power seller, navigate your way to the Power Seller Business forum and ask for the details of the process to be made whole after a "buyer" returns a counterfeit item. It requires filing reports with different agencies. DO NOT call feepay and escalate / whine / cry, or anything similar. THAT is a mark against YOU!
Just follow the process that was designed by an aggrieved seller if you want your money back.
feepay does not care about your account. They have already lost ten of thousands of great sellers including half of their top 1000 US seller base, and I don't see them gnashing their teeth over it.
Buyer fraud is rampant on feepay. It is probably the second most discussed issue on their forums after their asinine defect policies.
Sorry for not posting the seller's information. Some warned that if I do, that it could come back to haunt me, but at this point, I don't care. I will post the eBay ID now.
As for the money, I truly do not care about the $48. I have been scammed before for more and often it is less expensive to just take the hit and move on, considering the value of time. Every store has shrinkage, and we have been fortunate overall.
The reason that I am going to fight this aggressively is that this same scam could be applied to much more expensive coins. What if this punk is just testing the waters with inexpensive coins?
Anyway, here it is:
The buyer
Or you (or one of us) waits for him to sell something on Ebay then pull the same scam back on him.
They do not sell very often, they did get a neg 3 yars ago and say they own a small resale boutique. ->
Negative feedback rating Bought 1 wk ago; told me today item "recently sold in the store." What store? Buyer: r***j ( 686Purple star icon for feedback score in between 500 to 999) More than a year ago
?Reply by pookster0904 (Feb-08-13 06:11):
I do apologize. I own a small resale boutique. These things happen & I am sorry.
And, I forgot to add, send your coins in sealed flips, and indicate that there will be no returns if the coins are removed from the original holders, or the holders are tampered with.
This is what I have done on the few raw coins that I have sold in the past.
BST transactions: dbldie55, jayPem, 78saen, UltraHighRelief, nibanny, liefgold, FallGuy, lkeigwin, mbogoman, Sandman70gt, keets, joeykoins, ianrussell (@GC), EagleEye, ThePennyLady, GRANDAM, Ilikecolor, Gluggo, okiedude, Voyageur, LJenkins11, fastfreddie, ms70, pursuitofliberty, ZoidMeister,Coin Finder, GotTheBug, edwardjulio, Coinnmore, Nickpatton, Namvet69,...
There is an option I would suggest, go sue the guy. While it may be an inconvenience, I would go get him. To defray the costs we could fund the matter as a group, I would offer $200 toward costs. It's possible there may even be a suit (lawyer) in the same area on the forum. I'm in Michigan, and if he's here, I would come out of retirement and do it pro bono.
This takes "Mad as hell and wont take it anymore" to a whole new level.
"Inspiration exists, but it has to find you working" Pablo Picasso
There is an option I would suggest, go sue the guy. While it may be an inconvenience, I would go get him. To defray the costs we could fund the matter as a group, I would offer $200 toward costs. It's possible there may even be a suit (lawyer) in the same area on the forum. I'm in Michigan, and if he's here, I would come out of retirement and do it pro bono.
This takes "Mad as hell and wont take it anymore" to a whole new level.
Unless new information is offered, simply based on what's been expressed within this thread, the OP would lose his case.
Expensive without a favorable return.
But on the same note, if the item is common enough, 8 million, why couldn't the buyer have just bought locally?
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
And, I forgot to add, send your coins in sealed flips, and indicate that there will be no returns if the coins are removed from the original holders, or the holders are tampered with.
This is what I have done on the few raw coins that I have sold in the past.
Sealing the item, original packaging, etc., makes no difference whatsoever in a SNAD claim.
I had a tire kicker crack the coin from a PCGS slab and was forced by feepay to accept the return.
Regarding refusing a return of a SNAD: In doing so, you are generally forfeiting the right to recover the item when feepay, PayPal, or the credit card issuer, rules against you. And, that's very highly probable.
The only way to prevent this type of fraud is for ebay to set up mail receiving offices across America where they verify the contents and to have the recipients come pick those packages.
But on the same note, if the item is common enough, 8 million, why couldn't the buyer have just bought locally?
Leo
feepay set up a system open to fraud because it's your money and not theirs. They simply don't care about your problems as a seller. They've chosen this path ostensibly to build their business on your wallet. This type of fraud is not much of an issue with professional merchants' independent web sites and their credit card processors.
Sounds like the bad guys rule on ebay.
Accurately and simply put.
There is an option I would suggest, go sue the guy. While it may be an inconvenience, I would go get him. To defray the costs we could fund the matter as a group, I would offer $200 toward costs. It's possible there may even be a suit (lawyer) in the same area on the forum. I'm in Michigan, and if he's here, I would come out of retirement and do it pro bono.
This takes "Mad as hell and wont take it anymore" to a whole new level.
Unless new information is offered, simply based on what's been expressed within this thread, the OP would lose his case.
Expensive without a favorable return.
Really, then maybe you've never tried a case and or don't know a good lawyer. I'd rip this clown up in court. He'd likely wet himself.
There is an option I would suggest, go sue the guy. While it may be an inconvenience, I would go get him. To defray the costs we could fund the matter as a group, I would offer $200 toward costs. It's possible there may even be a suit (lawyer) in the same area on the forum. I'm in Michigan, and if he's here, I would come out of retirement and do it pro bono.
This takes "Mad as hell and wont take it anymore" to a whole new level.
Unless new information is offered, simply based on what's been expressed within this thread, the OP would lose his case.
Expensive without a favorable return.
Really, then maybe you've never tried a case and or don't know a good lawyer. I'd rip this clown up in court. He'd likely wet himself.
Remember in Jan 2015 ,someone over in BST paid $390 for a roll of Silver eagles .. then never got the Eagles .... that should have been a tried case
You are going to love this one: So I call eBay to explain the situation. They told me that since I accepted the return (I offer 14 day returns and I pay the return shipping), I agreed with them that the coins I sold were fake. Can you believe it? I tried to explain to the eBay rep that counterfeit Pandas are sold on eBay daily, and that it is too easy for a crook to buy some counterfeits, then buy some genuine coins, and then return the fakes to the legitimate seller. The response was that I should work it out with the buyer.
I asked eBay to check the buyer's history and to tell me how many times he has asked to return similar items, but they would not tell me. I am sure he has done this to others, and looking at his feedback, he only buys from coin dealers.
Now if I try to raise a stink with the buyer, he will leave a negative. At this point I really do not care. I will take it. This is a small deal in terms of dollars, but I am taking it personally since it is such an egregious scam.
CALL THE POLICE. Seriously. This is fraud.
^This. File a police report and a report with your local Postal Inspector. Then contact the police in this buyers area. Then send the police report to eBay and they should give you a "one time refund". It will be quite a pain in the a** but hopefully it will get the point across.
Boy-o-boy numisma.
Between this and the ridicules PayPal BS, I don't know how you keep your sanity.
I understand that the Panda situation is not a big money deal but returning fakes right to your doorstep feels aggressive.
That would infuriate me as well.
Keep your chin up. We're behind you.
My YouTube Channel
https://acoinshop.com/ —-> https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
THAT!
My YouTube Channel
I hate thieves
Boy so do I, with a passion!!
Another thing would be to file a civil case against the buyer after you have filed the police report. Ask for damages, track you lost time and go after legal fees. Use his address and have him/her served with lawsuit. You could do it in small claims court for a nominal fee.
I like this idea, but it still leaves some hurdles. (1). The OP would likely need to travel to the location of the buyer to file in small claims court and be there for the court date. (2). Although I trust the OP's word, the whole case rests on seller's word vs. buyer's word. There's no evidence to submit to court that either side can prove their position.
Also, I believe in small claims court you can only file for the actual loss and you can't file to cover the cost of filing.
The caveat to the small claims court idea is that if the buyer doesn't show, the OP seller wins by default. At least then there would be a legal means to recover the loss.
Also, I believe in small claims court you can only file for the actual loss and you can't file to cover the cost of filing.
In Texas, the small claims filing covers actual loss and filing costs.
No "lost time", travel, legal fees (no lawyers at the small claims level), etc.
So just the Pandas and filing fee.
Someone might be willing who is local to the "bad guy" to represent the OP in court, along with the screen shot of the "bad guy's" purchases of fakes.
But I also agree with the "He said, He said" issue, that it is going to be hard to prove what was shipped where.
The best recourse is that the bad guy either ponys up the real silver and sends it back, does not show in court, etc.
However, even if you win a judgment, it is not a slam dunk to get any $$. I would sell some of the judgments I won REALLY cheap.
If similar incidents have occurred and they are proactively reported collectively, at least there may be some chance of prosecution or banishment from eBay. You could certainly advise them of your experience with pookster0904, and encourage them to place him on their blocked list if they want to avoid a similar experience.
"Everything is on its way to somewhere. Everything." - George Malley, Phenomenon
http://www.american-legacy-coins.com
Credit cards are hardly fool proof to scams like this. If your card company doesn't agree with you, you are still out the money. Many people here have reported such losses. Without Ebay supporting sellers too, the model is broken.
^This. File a police report and a report with your local Postal Inspector. Then contact the police in this buyers area. Then send the police report to eBay and they should give you a "one time refund". It will be quite a pain in the a** but hopefully it will get the point across.
For $48? No one is going to care. I followed this exact same course of action plus additional steps of contacting both police jurisdictions involved, USPS internet crimes, local USPS postmaster, state Attorney General and consumer protection, Ebay, etc. My case was open and shut over $2,100. The proof was indisputable. The seller agreed. I knew where they lived and even called the seller on the phone. In the end it didn't matter one bit because no one cared or took further action. I wasn't about to travel 1,000 miles to Atlanta and hope for a small claims verdict that the seller would probably never pay anyways. The only effect of this entire incident was that I negged them....lol. They didn't even bother to neg me back which they could have at that time. All the jurisdictions above will talk to you or read your report the first time around. But at some point, they will just ignore you. The days of the USPS, Ebay, local police or whomever being your friend are long gone. The police where the crime was committed don't care about Joe Schmoe 1,000 miles away. They care more about their "citizen"/taxpayer than you.
Numisma--Sorry to hear about this. I agree with poster immediately above. For $40, it is hardly worth the effort.
Still, it is an important issue and you might find some legal/coin collector sympathy for this cause. Were this in my area, I might be inclined to take it on. If a case were to be filed, it is not a slam dunk. In other words, who is to say that an unscrupulous seller would not do the same thing....post real coins and send counterfeits while then claiming he sent the real ones. Not a bad scam. Your reputation on the boards gives you credence here that you would not have in court. However, you have your seller pics and the actions of the buyer in purchasing counterfeits is pretty damning. All the best to you. Where is the buyer from?
Tom
What I'm saying is; there is a lot of damage being done beyond the $48. People who engage in scams like this have no empathy or conscience. They don't think about how they are messing with you, they only think about how "clever" they are.
This slob has to be made to suffer somehow. That is my take on it anyway. Maybe we can figure out a "campaign" where we do something relentless until this worm relents and makes good on his theft. Teach him that there is a victim and damage caused by his actions.
One thing you might do is try to go up the ladder at eBay. I've had a couple of similar experiences and it really depends on who you talk to when you complain. Some of the customer dis-service people there are worthless and really have no idea of what you are telling them. They don't understand your frustration and just want to end an uncomfortable call. On the other hand I've had a couple of people at eBay actually help me and take steps to make the right thing happen. Be persistent and keep calling until you get someone who can REALLY help you.
Good luck with this and if you need me to do anything to help just PM me. If someone really wants to follow through on a campaign, I'm in. Again, PM and let me know what you're thinking.
I have been thru the court system a few times on both sides. The only winners are the lawyers.
No one ( official) is going to put any time in over 50 bucks
There are lousy people out there and you found one
If my business only got clipped for 50 a moth I would be thrilled, I have quit filing judgements on my evictions. In 15 years I have never been able to collect ONE of them. No reason to spend anymore money.
I would rather spend free time enjoying myself than being frustrated that some loser beat me out of 500 bucks. In the end he is going to have to spend a lot more than the 500 he beat me out of.
NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!!
working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
RIP "BEAR"
My Early Large Cents
I'd rather buy Pamp Suisse gold bricks from camel dealer on the silk road than spend a dime on Ebay.
"Just because you were born on 3rd base doesn't mean you hit a triple"
numisma, one of the first steps I would take would be to go through the list of sellers that pookster0904 has supposedly purchased from (taken from their FB summary) and contact every one of them to inquire if any others have had a similar experience.
Ebay now purposely scrambles their ID in feedback just for this reason - contact by a third party.
Government is the great fiction through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else. - Bastiat
numisma, one of the first steps I would take would be to go through the list of sellers that pookster0904 has supposedly purchased from (taken from their FB summary) and contact every one of them to inquire if any others have had a similar experience.
Ebay now purposely scrambles their ID in feedback just for this reason - contact by a third party.
Let me walk you through it derryb, so you know that I don't make unsubstantiated statements here.
1) Left click the eBay "advanced search" link at the top right of the eBay Home page.
2) Select "Find a member" search function. Enter the eBay member's ID or email address in the search box. Enter the posted Captcha code in the box below. Click the big blue search button below that.
3) From the list of close or exact match member ID's, click on the FB rating of the member sought.
4) On the selected member's FB rating, look at the plainly visible seller's ID's. I'm looking at the openly displayed ID's of every member who has sold to pookster0904 since they became a member in 2009.
I could do a screen shot for you, but I know you're capable of following my instructions.
"Everything is on its way to somewhere. Everything." - George Malley, Phenomenon
http://www.american-legacy-coins.com
numisma, one of the first steps I would take would be to go through the list of sellers that pookster0904 has supposedly purchased from (taken from their FB summary) and contact every one of them to inquire if any others have had a similar experience.
Ebay now purposely scrambles their ID in feedback just for this reason - contact by a third party.
Let me walk you through it derryb, so you know that I don't make unsubstantiated statements here.
1) Left click the eBay "advanced search" link at the top right of the eBay Home page.
2) Select "Find a member" search function. Enter the eBay member's ID or email address in the search box. Enter the posted Captcha code in the box below. Click the big blue search button below that.
3) From the list of close or exact match member ID's, click on the FB rating of the member sought.
4) On the selected member's FB rating, look at the plainly visible seller's ID's. I'm looking at the openly displayed ID's of every member who has sold to pookster0904 since they became a member in 2009.
I could do a screen shot for you, but I know you're capable of following my instructions.
That is very good info!
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Tom
numisma, one of the first steps I would take would be to go through the list of sellers that pookster0904 has supposedly purchased from (taken from their FB summary) and contact every one of them to inquire if any others have had a similar experience.
Ebay now purposely scrambles their ID in feedback just for this reason - contact by a third party.
Let me walk you through it derryb, so you know that I don't make unsubstantiated statements here.
1) Left click the eBay "advanced search" link at the top right of the eBay Home page.
2) Select "Find a member" search function. Enter the eBay member's ID or email address in the search box. Enter the posted Captcha code in the box below. Click the big blue search button below that.
3) From the list of close or exact match member ID's, click on the FB rating of the member sought.
4) On the selected member's FB rating, look at the plainly visible seller's ID's. I'm looking at the openly displayed ID's of every member who has sold to pookster0904 since they became a member in 2009.
I could do a screen shot for you, but I know you're capable of following my instructions.
Good workaround to sidestep the normally scrambled IDs when one views feedback by simply clicking on a members feedback number. Good trick, thanks.
Government is the great fiction through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else. - Bastiat
First Sellers scamming buyers...now buyers scamming sellers. Ebay draws in worst in humanity. I would never buy a coin on Ebay, and stopped selling once I rid myself of my junk silver.
I'd rather buy Pamp Suisse gold bricks from camel dealer on the silk road than spend a dime on Ebay.
It is also back to sellers screwing eBay as long as eBay allows massive presales. A solid for awhile seller makes a big surge in sales/presales and then drops off the face of the earth. After 2-3 weeks the negs start coming in and eBay starts 'buyer guaranteeing' money back. Allowing pre-sales only compoumds and delays the issue - "This is a pre-sale and shipping will not begin until release date on 4/15"... 100 available.