This may be apochryphal, but the story I've heard is that many of these were found in the Northeast in cigarette vending machines. A pack in 1955 cost $0.23, so the machines were set to take $0.25 payment and your two cents change was tucked into the cellophane wrapper on the individual packs. It is believed that the exposure to the plastic wrappers is what imparted this type of toning.
Sean Reynolds
Hey Sean.
I am in the Northeast and remember an old timer telling me he got 2 of the 55 DDO's in cigarette packs. I was a little kid at the time and remember looking at every Lincoln hoping to find one, but never getting lucky. This variety got me interested in coins as a kid and I have been hooked since. I have had a couple but really love my current example also.
Best aspect is the obverse, the money side, is gem plus. The reverse scuffs are what hold her to her grade.
Originally posted by: lasvegasteddy the mythical 1964 sms...estimated mintage of a mere 40-60 out-shadow's many lincolns in that respect but prices don't reflect it the only thing known about them is their discovery facts any information beyond that is speculation or opinion based
to me these will always be in a top 10 lincoln category
How can one tell the difference between this coin and the regular mint issue of this coin ?
the mythical 1964 sms...estimated mintage of a mere 40-60
out-shadow's many lincolns in that respect but prices don't reflect it
the only thing known about them is their discovery facts
any information beyond that is speculation or opinion based
to me
these will always be in a top 10 lincoln category
How can one tell the difference between this coin and the regular mint issue of this coin ?
This is exactly my point ATC.
Show the 55 DDO and the 64 SMS to one hundred non-collectors, heck show the two coins to one hundred 5 year olds and see what they would zero in on, what grabs their attention, what they want to know more about.
Which coin might make them want to find one or own one themselves ?
Which coin might spark that interest?
There is a HUGE difference between rarity and greatness.
1955 DDO would definitely be in my top 10 along with 1909 S V.D.B. from die #3.Also in my top 10 is 1922 D cent,sharply struck on both obverse and reverse with bold date and mint-mark. 1. 1956 D/D RPM 1.(2) 1909 S V.D.B. (die3) (3) 1922 D (4) 1955 DDO
The measure of intelligence is the ability to change.
Albert Einstein (14 March 1879--18 April 1955)
The ultra-rare 1943 silver pennies,P,D,S,no matter,are not in my list of 10 greatest Lincolns.Add 1914 D,a great key date,to my list. Off-metal piece for my list, I will go with one of the 1943 coppers,1943 D well-struck.
1. 1956 D/D RPM 1.(2) 1909 S V.D.B. (die3) (3) 1922 D (4) 1955 DDO (5) 1914 D (6)1943-D copper.
The measure of intelligence is the ability to change.
Albert Einstein (14 March 1879--18 April 1955)
Originally posted by: mr1874 1955 DDO would definitely be in my top 10 along with 1909 S V.D.B. from die #3.Also in my top 10 is 1922 D cent,sharply struck on both obverse and reverse with bold date and mint-mark. 1. 1956 D/D RPM 1.(2) 1909 S V.D.B. (die3) (3) 1922 D (4) 1955 DDO
Originally posted by: Tibor I had no idea about the 1958 double die. I have subscribed to Coin World and Numismatic News for 35+ years and I do not remember any article or announcement. Surely would have been front page news. Whats the history behind it and known population?
You haven't been subscribed for long enough These were announced nearly 50 years ago in Coin World (Jan 1966). The known pop is 2, discovered at the same time in the same mint sewn bag, PCGS MS65RD and PCGS MS64RD. These are owned by Stewart Blay and Pete Miller respectively. Del Romines claims to have seen 3 coins, but the third is unverified.
There are 3 specimens of the 1958 DDO, all from the same person Kevin
Originally posted by: joebb21 story on the 58 ddo?
It is talked about in the CPG: Some believe only 2 examples exist and that the source was either directly or indirectly from a US Mint Employee in Philly. The variety was first reported during ERRORAMA in Cherry Hill, NJ in 1983 or 1984.
I have the complete story in my book, The Authoritative Reference on Lincoln Cents, Second Edition, also included photographs after I met the owner in 1995, he was a retired cop, did some work at the Mint back in the 40s, he found all 3 in 1960 in a mint sewn bag. I believe he knew someone inside. He also had some incredible errors that he showed me.
I made the mistake of asking Frank Gasparro the same question when I interviewed him, he went ballistic, said he had been asked that question 10,0000 times. He flew to Denver in jan 1959, checked every coining press, every die, made sure all old dies were destroyed. I remember JP Martin stating that he studied this coin for a while, put could not prove it to be a counterfeit.
Originally posted by: Coinstudy My therory on the 1964 sms penny is that they moved the final set of proof dies from Philadelphia to Sanfrancisco and stuck a few proof sets an these where given to special peeps to comemorate the moveing the strikeing of proof coins from one mint to another.The sms sets produced to cover the transition.The "p" or plain or no mm in 64,65,66,67 conceals this transition.The 1964 proof sets in clear cello and the 1965 sms sets in clear cello.This is why I'm so big on the 1965 sms sets in cello.In cello means uncirculated,untouched where as the 66&67 have to be removed from a box.The 1965 sms sets only 2.3 mil minted .Kinda adds up to low mintage and unique in the big picture.How many are left?
The 1964 SMS came from the estate of former Mint Director Eva Adams.
Originally posted by: runningman I have heard that there exists a 1910 P and S VDB where the VDB was partially grinded off but visible, anyone ever seen one of these ?
No, there is not, it falls under the category that if you study something long enough, you see what you want to see.
Originally posted by: coinbuf My vote goes to the 1974 aluminum cent at the Smithsonian.
I agree, when I went there to examine and photograph the 74D alum in 1995, former curator Dr. Richard Doty dropped the coin in my hand, almost had a heart attack right there. It had the greatest strike and sharpest rims I have seen on a Linc cent. I remember coin dealer Jay Parino, who was the king of the underground coins told me how to absolutely authenticate the 74-D Alum, all are doubled die reverses. Jay could tell some stories.
Originally posted by: EagleEye I was offered one of the 1958 DDOs back in 1996. It was a sealed bid three way auction. This was before registry sets so it was virtually unknown to most collectors. I bid $25,000. The winning bid was $25,025, or so I was told. I think it was a plot to determine the value.
Rick, you would probably remember this, was it Sam Lukes who had one of these for sale for years? I may be confusing this with the gem 1969-S DDO, but I seem to recall that he had an example prominently featured in his Numismatic News ads for years at a $75K list price. Sean Reynolds
It was Sam, I had called Sam when the owner was looking to sell, Sam put it up for auction.
Biggest mistake, shoulda coulda bought this when I examined it.
Originally posted by: EagleEye I was offered one of the 1958 DDOs back in 1996. It was a sealed bid three way auction. This was before registry sets so it was virtually unknown to most collectors. I bid $25,000. The winning bid was $25,025, or so I was told. I think it was a plot to determine the value.
Rick, you would probably remember this, was it Sam Lukes who had one of these for sale for years? I may be confusing this with the gem 1969-S DDO, but I seem to recall that he had an example prominently featured in his Numismatic News ads for years at a $75K list price. Sean Reynolds
Yes, Sam had it when I offered on it. It sold later for $35K - $40K and it came back to him again at a later date. This was when it was for sale at $75K.
The original owner was not happy when Sam got it back and sold it for much more, he thought Sam kept it all along and make more of a profit
TwoSides2aCoin: this [1969/1969-S] may fetch honorable mention.
I disagree. While I would not say that the doubling on the 1969/1969-S is subtle, it is not blatant. It takes a moment to notice the doubling. The 1955/1955 doubles are much more apparent and have much more of an emotional impact. Although I acknowledge that this might be very rare, it really seems to be a minor variety. There are many 20th century U.S. Mint Errors that are far rarer and are far more noticeable, several of which are discussed in my articles. At current price levels, $17,000 to $50,000, 1969/1969-S Lincolns really do not seem to be good values and do not seem to be among the 15 or 20 Greatest Lincoln Cents in Existence, IMO. The already mentioned 'Small Date over Large Date; cents are far cooler.
I respectfully disagree, the 1969-S is a true rarity and variety, and is one of the greatest stories on this series, which adds to the lure, collector interest, and overall demand. Mort Goodman created the 1969 extreme DDO, was tried, during the trial, they tried to introduce 1969-S doubled dies, five were eventually confiscated, Mort got prison time, the 5 specimens eventually melted several years later, and many bags of 1969-S cents were brought back to the Mint from the North West and melted, adding to its rarity.
This variety will bring six figures in a heartbeat in mintstate grade.
Originally posted by: JRocco What a great thread. My thoughts - while there can be 10 coins that can be pointed to as "The Greatest", due to rarity, value etc, I see one coin as standing out. It has to be the 55 DDO. While a coin such as the 58 DDO is out of the ballpark more rare, it is not as in your face, or as available to the common collector as the 55 DDO. There are enough 55 DDO's in the marketplace to enable many collectors to obtain and personally admire one. This Lincoln, perhaps more than any other has drawn so many people into becoming coin collectors.
1955 DDO The king of the Lincoln series
Many of these were found in cigarette machines in upper NJ and NYC, a good time to smoke, LOL
Top 10, in order 1. 1943-D Copper cent, only MS copper cent, only unique copper cent from a single mint, struck twice, purposefully by a Mint employee as souvenir, held for years, I believe it sold last for 1.5 million 2. 1974-D Alum, Smithsonian 3. 1944-S Steel cent, MS66, sold Heritage $373K 4. 1958 DDO 5. 1969-S DDO 6. 1909 VDB Matte Proof a PR67RD would sell easily for $300K 7. 1943-S Copper AU58, Heritage $211K 8. 1922 No D 9. 1926-S - tough year for strike and high grade 10. 1909-S VDB (one collector saved several hundred new specimens, sold them a few years later)
The 43 coppers and 44 steels is probably the greatest story of this series and captured the nation for about 10 - 15 years to find them, even though Chief Engraver Sinnock had a 43 copper and 44 steel that he gave to his mistress, who sold them in 1960
Of course the above is just an opinion, I am sure everyone has their own list
Oh forgot, honorable mention, I remember Charmy had I believe it was a 1944 Copper, that had the greatest, most aesthetic toning I had ever seen on a copper coin.
Originally posted by: mr1874 drwstr123 that 22-D you posted image of....were you saying its a 64? I wouldn't hesitate for a minute to call your '22-D a 65.....nah.......66...
drwstr123 that 22-D you posted image of....were you saying its a 64? I wouldn't hesitate for a minute to call your '22-D a 65.....nah.......66...
That is one sweet original piece....
Just a fully struck 63.
I bought a gorgeous 1922-D from Stacks in New York in the mid 1990s, thay had just purchaased three complete stes of Indian and Wheat cents over the counter in Meghrig books. They let me have my choice of the three for 64 bid, I later submitted it to PCGS where it went 65RD. I wish I know where that coin was now, it's still the best struck coin for the date I've ever seen.
Sean Reynolds
Incomplete planchets wanted, especially Lincoln Cents & type coins.
"Keep in mind that most of what passes as numismatic information is no more than tested opinion at best, and marketing blather at worst. However, I try to choose my words carefully, since I know that you guys are always watching." - Joe O'Connor
Originally posted by: WingedLiberty1957 In an open auction on ebay, i might bid upwards of $1500 to $1999 for that (call me crazy tho!)
Although I bet the owner would not sell it for 5 times that amount. I doubt it's for sale at any price right now.
==##== I've been thinking all day at work about your reply Winged. I don't want to hijack talking about toning premiums in general but I have thoughts in regards to that green 45.
I agree with you, that it's a coin worth stepping up to, but I could only take it to say 1000-1200. There it would approach the price of an OZ of gold, and I'd be standing ther thinking I'm crazy for wanting to spend more than an OZ of gold for a common date Lincoln with color.
The money color mind you, I get it, but rolls of this date exist and although green probably takes more than a Taco Bell napkin to create, you can bet there is someone who knows how. Wouldn't take a huge investment to work with these dates, so I'm apprehensive to get real deep in one.
Plus, there are examples of coins in this color and date range in the unknown universe as well.
Anyway, I would put off metal 1943 and 44s errors as great as well as the 09vdb proof we are talking about.
Comments
Love the look of the '55 DDO in the post above.
This may be apochryphal, but the story I've heard is that many of these were found in the Northeast in cigarette vending machines. A pack in 1955 cost $0.23, so the machines were set to take $0.25 payment and your two cents change was tucked into the cellophane wrapper on the individual packs. It is believed that the exposure to the plastic wrappers is what imparted this type of toning.
Sean Reynolds
Hey Sean.
I am in the Northeast and remember an old timer telling me he got 2 of the 55 DDO's in cigarette packs. I was a little kid at the time and remember looking at every Lincoln hoping to find one, but never getting lucky. This variety got me interested in coins as a kid and I have been hooked since. I have had a couple but really love my current example also.
Best aspect is the obverse, the money side, is gem plus. The reverse scuffs are what hold her to her grade.
the mythical 1964 sms...estimated mintage of a mere 40-60
out-shadow's many lincolns in that respect but prices don't reflect it
the only thing known about them is their discovery facts
any information beyond that is speculation or opinion based
to me
these will always be in a top 10 lincoln category
How can one tell the difference between this coin and the regular mint issue of this coin ?
the mythical 1964 sms...estimated mintage of a mere 40-60
out-shadow's many lincolns in that respect but prices don't reflect it
the only thing known about them is their discovery facts
any information beyond that is speculation or opinion based
to me
these will always be in a top 10 lincoln category
How can one tell the difference between this coin and the regular mint issue of this coin ?
This is exactly my point ATC.
Show the 55 DDO and the 64 SMS to one hundred non-collectors, heck show the two coins to one hundred 5 year olds and see what they would zero in on, what grabs their attention, what they want to know more about.
Which coin might make them want to find one or own one themselves ?
Which coin might spark that interest?
There is a HUGE difference between rarity and greatness.
Some Lincolns are rare, a few are great.
1. 1956 D/D RPM 1.(2) 1909 S V.D.B. (die3) (3) 1922 D (4) 1955 DDO
The measure of intelligence is the ability to change.
Albert Einstein (14 March 1879--18 April 1955)
1. 1956 D/D RPM 1.(2) 1909 S V.D.B. (die3) (3) 1922 D (4) 1955 DDO (5) 1914 D (6)1943-D copper.
The measure of intelligence is the ability to change.
Albert Einstein (14 March 1879--18 April 1955)
1955 DDO would definitely be in my top 10 along with 1909 S V.D.B. from die #3.Also in my top 10 is 1922 D cent,sharply struck on both obverse and reverse with bold date and mint-mark.
1. 1956 D/D RPM 1.(2) 1909 S V.D.B. (die3) (3) 1922 D (4) 1955 DDO
I had no idea about the 1958 double die. I have subscribed to Coin World and Numismatic News for 35+ years and I do not remember any article or announcement. Surely would have been front page news. Whats the history behind it and known population?
You haven't been subscribed for long enough
These were announced nearly 50 years ago in Coin World (Jan 1966). The known pop is 2, discovered at the same time in the same mint sewn bag, PCGS MS65RD and PCGS MS64RD. These are owned by Stewart Blay and Pete Miller respectively. Del Romines claims to have seen 3 coins, but the third is unverified.
There are 3 specimens of the 1958 DDO, all from the same person
Kevin
story on the 58 ddo?
It is talked about in the CPG:
Some believe only 2 examples exist and that the source was either directly
or indirectly from a US Mint Employee in Philly. The variety was first reported
during ERRORAMA in Cherry Hill, NJ in 1983 or 1984.
I have the complete story in my book, The Authoritative Reference on Lincoln Cents, Second Edition, also included photographs after I met the owner in 1995, he was a retired cop, did some work at the Mint back in the 40s, he found all 3 in 1960 in a mint sewn bag.
I believe he knew someone inside. He also had some incredible errors that he showed me.
Kevin
How about the 1959 LWC Mule? ...or has it been debunked???
The Mystery Of The 1959-d Mule Lincoln Cent
I made the mistake of asking Frank Gasparro the same question when I interviewed him, he went ballistic, said he had been asked that question 10,0000 times.
He flew to Denver in jan 1959, checked every coining press, every die, made sure all old dies were destroyed.
I remember JP Martin stating that he studied this coin for a while, put could not prove it to be a counterfeit.
Kevin
My therory on the 1964 sms penny is that they moved the final set of proof dies from Philadelphia to Sanfrancisco and stuck a few proof sets an these where given to special peeps to comemorate the moveing the strikeing of proof coins from one mint to another.The sms sets produced to cover the transition.The "p" or plain or no mm in 64,65,66,67 conceals this transition.The 1964 proof sets in clear cello and the 1965 sms sets in clear cello.This is why I'm so big on the 1965 sms sets in cello.In cello means uncirculated,untouched where as the 66&67 have to be removed from a box.The 1965 sms sets only 2.3 mil minted .Kinda adds up to low mintage and unique in the big picture.How many are left?
The 1964 SMS came from the estate of former Mint Director Eva Adams.
I have heard that there exists a 1910 P and S VDB where the VDB was partially grinded off but visible, anyone ever seen one of these ?
No, there is not,
it falls under the category that if you study something long enough, you see what you want to see.
My vote goes to the 1974 aluminum cent at the Smithsonian.
I agree, when I went there to examine and photograph the 74D alum in 1995, former curator Dr. Richard Doty dropped the coin in my hand, almost had a heart attack right there.
It had the greatest strike and sharpest rims I have seen on a Linc cent. I remember coin dealer Jay Parino, who was the king of the underground coins told me how to absolutely authenticate the 74-D Alum, all are doubled die reverses. Jay could tell some stories.
Kevin
I was offered one of the 1958 DDOs back in 1996. It was a sealed bid three way auction. This was before registry sets so it was virtually unknown to most collectors. I bid $25,000. The winning bid was $25,025, or so I was told. I think it was a plot to determine the value.
Rick, you would probably remember this, was it Sam Lukes who had one of these for sale for years? I may be confusing this with the gem 1969-S DDO, but I seem to recall that he had an example prominently featured in his Numismatic News ads for years at a $75K list price.
Sean Reynolds
It was Sam, I had called Sam when the owner was looking to sell, Sam put it up for auction.
Biggest mistake, shoulda coulda bought this when I examined it.
Kevin
I was offered one of the 1958 DDOs back in 1996. It was a sealed bid three way auction. This was before registry sets so it was virtually unknown to most collectors. I bid $25,000. The winning bid was $25,025, or so I was told. I think it was a plot to determine the value.
Rick, you would probably remember this, was it Sam Lukes who had one of these for sale for years? I may be confusing this with the gem 1969-S DDO, but I seem to recall that he had an example prominently featured in his Numismatic News ads for years at a $75K list price.
Sean Reynolds
Yes, Sam had it when I offered on it. It sold later for $35K - $40K and it came back to him again at a later date. This was when it was for sale at $75K.
The original owner was not happy when Sam got it back and sold it for much more, he thought Sam kept it all along and make more of a profit
TwoSides2aCoin:
I disagree. While I would not say that the doubling on the 1969/1969-S is subtle, it is not blatant. It takes a moment to notice the doubling. The 1955/1955 doubles are much more apparent and have much more of an emotional impact. Although I acknowledge that this might be very rare, it really seems to be a minor variety. There are many 20th century U.S. Mint Errors that are far rarer and are far more noticeable, several of which are discussed in my articles. At current price levels, $17,000 to $50,000, 1969/1969-S Lincolns really do not seem to be good values and do not seem to be among the 15 or 20 IMO. The already mentioned 'Small Date over Large Date; cents are far cooler.
Why Are 1943 Copper and 1944 Steel Lincoln Cent Errors So Valuable?
Geyer Collection of WWII Era U.S. Mint Errors, many of which are PCGS certified
I respectfully disagree, the 1969-S is a true rarity and variety, and is one of the greatest stories on this series, which adds to the lure, collector interest, and overall demand.
Mort Goodman created the 1969 extreme DDO, was tried, during the trial, they tried to introduce 1969-S doubled dies, five were eventually confiscated, Mort got prison time, the 5 specimens eventually melted several years later, and many bags of 1969-S cents were brought back to the Mint from the North West and melted, adding to its rarity.
This variety will bring six figures in a heartbeat in mintstate grade.
Kevin
What a great thread.
My thoughts - while there can be 10 coins that can be pointed to as "The Greatest", due to rarity, value etc, I see one coin as standing out.
It has to be the 55 DDO.
While a coin such as the 58 DDO is out of the ballpark more rare, it is not as in your face, or as available to the common collector as the 55 DDO. There are enough 55 DDO's in the marketplace to enable many collectors to obtain and personally admire one. This Lincoln, perhaps more than any other has drawn so many people into becoming coin collectors.
1955 DDO
The king of the Lincoln series
Many of these were found in cigarette machines in upper NJ and NYC, a good time to smoke, LOL
1. 1943-D Copper cent, only MS copper cent, only unique copper cent from a single mint, struck twice, purposefully by a Mint employee as souvenir, held for years, I believe it sold last for 1.5 million
2. 1974-D Alum, Smithsonian
3. 1944-S Steel cent, MS66, sold Heritage $373K
4. 1958 DDO
5. 1969-S DDO
6. 1909 VDB Matte Proof a PR67RD would sell easily for $300K
7. 1943-S Copper AU58, Heritage $211K
8. 1922 No D
9. 1926-S - tough year for strike and high grade
10. 1909-S VDB (one collector saved several hundred new specimens, sold them a few years later)
The 43 coppers and 44 steels is probably the greatest story of this series and captured the nation for about 10 - 15 years to find them, even though Chief Engraver Sinnock had a 43 copper and 44 steel that he gave to his mistress, who sold them in 1960
Of course the above is just an opinion, I am sure everyone has their own list
Oh forgot, honorable mention, I remember Charmy had I believe it was a 1944 Copper, that had the greatest, most aesthetic toning I had ever seen on a copper coin.
Kevin
That is one sweet original piece....
The measure of intelligence is the ability to change.
Albert Einstein (14 March 1879--18 April 1955)
drwstr123 that 22-D you posted image of....were you saying its a 64? I wouldn't hesitate for a minute to call your '22-D a 65.....nah.......66...
That is one sweet original piece....
Just a fully struck 63.
My Coin Blog
My Toned Lincoln Registry Set
I think this is the greatest Mint State Lincoln in terms of pure eye appeal ...
This monster is owned by Forum Member CopperColor,, one of the premier collectors of toned Mint State Lincolns in the known Universe.
My Coin Blog
My Toned Lincoln Registry Set
For those of us that love PCGS blessed color ...
I think this is the greatest Mint State Lincoln in terms of pure eye appeal ...
This monster is owned by Forum Member CopperColor,, one of the premier collectors of toned Mint State Lincolns in the known Universe.
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Coin facts shows this coin as valued at 20 bucks in 66. Full green is always cool. Think the color would pull more than a couple hundie?
Although I bet the owner would not sell it for 5 times that amount.
I doubt it's for sale at any price right now.
My Coin Blog
My Toned Lincoln Registry Set
drwstr123 that 22-D you posted image of....were you saying its a 64? I wouldn't hesitate for a minute to call your '22-D a 65.....nah.......66...
That is one sweet original piece....
Just a fully struck 63.
I bought a gorgeous 1922-D from Stacks in New York in the mid 1990s, thay had just purchaased three complete stes of Indian and Wheat cents over the counter in Meghrig books. They let me have my choice of the three for 64 bid, I later submitted it to PCGS where it went 65RD. I wish I know where that coin was now, it's still the best struck coin for the date I've ever seen.
Sean Reynolds
"Keep in mind that most of what passes as numismatic information is no more than tested opinion at best, and marketing blather at worst. However, I try to choose my words carefully, since I know that you guys are always watching." - Joe O'Connor
In an open auction on ebay, i might bid upwards of $1500 to $1999 for that (call me crazy tho!)
Although I bet the owner would not sell it for 5 times that amount.
I doubt it's for sale at any price right now.
==##==
I've been thinking all day at work about your reply Winged. I don't want to hijack talking about toning premiums in general but I have thoughts in regards to that green 45.
I agree with you, that it's a coin worth stepping up to, but I could only take it to say 1000-1200. There it would approach the price of an OZ of gold, and I'd be standing ther thinking I'm crazy for wanting to spend more than an OZ of gold for a common date Lincoln with color.
The money color mind you, I get it, but rolls of this date exist and although green probably takes more than a Taco Bell napkin to create, you can bet there is someone who knows how. Wouldn't take a huge investment to work with these dates, so I'm apprehensive to get real deep in one.
Plus, there are examples of coins in this color and date range in the unknown universe as well.
Anyway, I would put off metal 1943 and 44s errors as great as well as the 09vdb proof we are talking about.