Truly a rare coin

TopographicOceans · November 3, 2015 12:12PM

For your viewing pleasure. Not my coin.

Proof Draped Bust Silver Dollars are among the rarest, most intriguing coins in all of U.S. numismatics, and they are also among the most challenging to understand. Although some numismatic scholars have referred to the proof 1801, 1802, 1803 and 1804 Dollars as restrikes, they are in fact novodels. This terms is reserved for a coin struck in a later date than that depicted on the die but for which no originals were ever produced.

Of course, the most famous issue in the proof Draped Bust Silver Dollar series is the 1804. The Class I examples were created in 1834/1835 for use in special proof sets for presentation to foreign governments. The 1801, 1802 and 1803 novodels, however, appear to have been struck much later, and almost certainly for private purposes by Mint officials. In fact, these coins could have been produced as late as the 1870s during Henry R. Linderman's second term as director of the Mint. It is revealing that these coins all display beaded borders due to having been struck in a close collar - a device that was not in use in the United States Mint during the 1801-1804 era.

lasvegasteddy · November 3, 2015 12:14PM

you make it tough to look at my coins with examples like this

absolutely stunning

jdimmick · November 3, 2015 12:18PM

wow!

TopographicOceans · November 3, 2015 12:20PM

It's on my Power Ball list.
As soon as I win the $270,000,000 jackpot I'll spend $1.4m on this.

MidLifeCrisis · November 3, 2015 12:22PM

The OP's coin is very nice...but I have mixed feelings about these "novodels". I prefer coins that were meant for circulation, but I see the appeal of early proofs in general, and these especially.

If given the choice between one of these "novodels" and a circulation coin of equal value, I'd choose _____________.

Zoins · November 3, 2015 2:44PM

Here is this coin on HA.

I think this would be more exciting if the US Mint started striking novodels again

tradedollarnut · November 3, 2015 2:56PM

Never have had any interest in owning those. Same with a Class III 1804

Tibor · November 3, 2015 3:52PM

Has anyone ever owned a set of all 4 dates. Of the first 3 dates (1801,1802,1803) how many of each are known?
Is each date from the same die or were they struck at different times?
I meant were they struck from different dies at different times since I believe these
were made to order?

Zoins · November 3, 2015 4:43PM

Originally posted by: Tibor
Has anyone ever owned a set of all 4 dates.

Haseltine had a set of all 4 (1801, 1802, 1803, and Class III 1804) in 1876. He also handled 4 different 1802 proof dollars.

FredF · November 3, 2015 11:01PM

Wonder when people realized the 1802 wasn't actually made in 1802. I had originally assumed that there had to be some contemporaries "in the know" about the origination of the coins, but looking at the wikipedia entry for the 1804 dollar, that may not be the case. Specifically:

The fact that no 1804 dollars were struck in 1804 was not widely accepted by numismatists until the early twentieth century.[59] Before such time, the actual year in which they were struck remained contentious among numismatists. Early on, collectors assumed that the 1804 dollars were struck in 1804, and their rarity was explained by various theories. The bulk of the mintage was variously rumored to have been paid to Barbary pirates as ransom, lost at sea en route to China, and melted before leaving the Philadelphia Mint.[60] In 1867, numismatist W. Elliot Woodward acknowledged that 1804 dollars were struck as diplomatic gifts in 1834, but he also believed that others were struck in 1804.[61] Numismatists Lyman H. Low and William T. R. Marvin, writing for the American Journal of Numismatics in 1899, stated that "the journal confidently asserts that there is no dollar dated 1804 which was struck in that year by the U.S. Mint."[62] In 1891, numismatist John A. Nexsen wrote that the Class I 1804 dollars were "without doubt coined in 1804".[63] In 1905, he recanted his earlier assertions, stating that "no one now believes that they were coined in 1804."

1891 people believed that they were legit 1804 dollars, 1899 at least one prominent journal saying it was not, and then 1905 it being pretty universally accepted that they weren't minted in 1804.

Fascinating. I wouldn't collect these, personally, even if I had the funds, just because there are actual coins issued for circulation (or proofs minted in the year minted on the coin) that I would want and I could easily spend millions and millions on those and keep myself very busy. But I still love looking at the photos and reading about the stories behind them.

But I wonder - if I were made mint director today, what sorts of stunts would I try to pull "on the sly?" Not for self-enrichment, just for entertainment value. A good novodel might draw interest to coin collecting, especially if there is a mystery that takes a decent amount of time to solve.

Christos · November 3, 2015 11:17PM

I always find it interesting when coins of this value are auctioned on ebay. What would be the reason to use ebay for a coin like this over a reputable auction house that would market the coin properly?

tradedollarnut · November 4, 2015 12:40AM

Originally posted by: Christos
I always find it interesting when coins of this value are auctioned on ebay. What would be the reason to use ebay for a coin like this over a reputable auction house that would market the coin properly?

Check the auction price realized the last time it appeared. And check the number of times it's been on eBay. It's not being auctioned - it's being advertised.

abcde12345 · November 4, 2015 12:51AM

What happened to the thirteenth star?

Pass.

cameonut2011 · November 4, 2015 12:57AM

I am not sure that I am impressed with novodels.

brg5658 · November 4, 2015 1:30AM

I know people like to use the term "novodel" to try to make these more relevant than they are, but they are fantasy coins struck at an "official" place. Nothing more.

Unknown · November 4, 2015 1:39AM

This content has been removed.

tradedollarnut · November 4, 2015 1:47AM

Originally posted by: Realone

Originally posted by: brg5658
I know people like to use the term "novodel" to try to make these more relevant than they are, but they are fantasy coins struck at an "official" place. Nothing more.

So what makes the 1804 so fabulous then.....why the difference in treatment?

The fact that they were struck for a legitimate government purpose rather than to line the pockets of Mint insiders

brg5658 · November 4, 2015 2:25AM

Originally posted by: tradedollarnut

Originally posted by: Realone

Originally posted by: brg5658

I know people like to use the term "novodel" to try to make these more relevant than they are, but they are fantasy coins struck at an "official" place. Nothing more.

So what makes the 1804 so fabulous then.....why the difference in treatment?

The fact that they were struck for a legitimate government purpose rather than to line the pockets of Mint insiders

I consider the 1804 pieces just as illegitimate as the other-dated "novodels"....they are also fantasy pieces that have been advertised and hyped to death. None were struck in 1804, and the ones that were struck for supposed "legitimate government purposes" (TDN's words, not mine) are still fantasy pieces....nothing more.

I don't see much difference here from the Daniel Carr fantasy pieces -- coins that were never produced by the US Mint for distribution in the actual dated year. The only difference is that they were struck at an "official" place -- as I stated in my first reply.

tradedollarnut · November 4, 2015 2:37AM

supposed? You are welcome to your opinion, although most would disagree with you. There was nothing supposed about it.

SeattleSlammer · November 4, 2015 3:17AM

Incredible coin. But am I the only one that thinks the CAM designation is a bit of a stretch? ...

brg5658 · November 4, 2015 3:40AM

Originally posted by: tradedollarnut

supposed? You are welcome to your opinion, although most would disagree with you. There was nothing supposed about it.

Yes, supposed. The Class I issues are the only of the group that have any claim to "legitimacy", and I don't personally consider diplomatic missions to be a legitimate reason to create fantasy numismatic "rarities"...

winky · November 4, 2015 5:44AM

Not really CAM to me but it is beautiful. If I could afford it I would buy it or one like it.

DollarAfterDollar · November 4, 2015 7:42AM

Boy, I just don't get the grading there. That coin looks nothing like any cameo coin I've ever seen and the scratches amongst the obverse stars are as obvious as all get out.

If the coin were mine it would be in a details holder. You can bet your a**.

If the scratches are on the slab then shame on the owner for trying to sell it without re-holdering and re-beaning the poor thing.

Beyond that.....................I like it!!!!

AMRC · November 4, 2015 8:20AM

Originally posted by: SeattleSlammer
Incredible coin. But am I the only one that thinks the CAM designation is a bit of a stretch? ...

You want it to be a true rarity and correctly graded? Some people are so hard to please.

cardinal · November 4, 2015 11:19AM

Originally posted by: SeattleSlammer
Incredible coin. But am I the only one that thinks the CAM designation is a bit of a stretch? ...

The coin has an Ex:Cardinal pedigree, and I can assure you, it fully deserves its Cameo designation, and is the finest of the known specimens.

TopographicOceans · November 4, 2015 12:07PM

Originally posted by: cardinal

Originally posted by: SeattleSlammer
Incredible coin. But am I the only one that thinks the CAM designation is a bit of a stretch? ...

The coin has an Ex:Cardinal pedigree, and I can assure you, it fully deserves its Cameo designation, and is the finest of the known specimens.

That even trumps the CAC sticker

DeepCoin · November 4, 2015 11:16PM

When did this coin first surface in the collecting community? I put it in the same category as the Class II & III 1804 dollars and 1913 Liberty nickels, out the back door of the Mint made by insiders. Never authorized for striking.

garrynot · November 5, 2015 1:16AM

The E in LIBERTY looks like it is completely different font than the rest of the letters.

Truly a rare coin

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