seller on ebay has sold multiple counterfeit pcgs and ngc coins

joebb21 · October 1, 2015 10:45PM

Has another listed here

link

TigersFan2 · October 1, 2015 10:56PM

Why do you say that NGC coin is a counterfeit? What are your diagnostics to determine this? It looks the same to me as the picture on the cert verification on NGC's webpage.

davewesen · October 1, 2015 11:18PM

<< Why do you say that NGC coin is a counterfeit? What are your diagnostics to determine this? It looks the same to me as the picture on the cert verification on NGC's webpage. >>

tooled date, mushy letters, clean XF details
looks different than NGC look-up

http://www.ngccoin.com/certlookup/index.aspx?CertNumber=3241813-020

Alltheabove76 · October 1, 2015 11:19PM

<< Why do you say that NGC coin is a counterfeit? What are your diagnostics to determine this? It looks the same to me as the picture on the cert verification on NGC's webpage. >>

Actually it doesn't look like the same coin in NGC's gallery and if you cant tell that coin is fake, I recommend you not buy any gold coins.

SullivanNumismatics · October 1, 2015 11:28PM

It's 100% counterfeit. Date looks odd, surfaces are wavy, and details are weak. False die counterfeit.

TigersFan2 · October 1, 2015 11:51PM

<< tooled date, mushy letters, clean XF details
looks different than NGC look-up >>

Yes, I do see that the area around the date looks altered. The Ebay auction picture isn't all that clear and the lighting is bad.

Everyone should report it as counterfeit then.

coindeuce · October 2, 2015 12:21AM

The raw '79-CC Morgan he sold last month is one of the other bogus coins. Pity the fool who bought that.

Included a link to the URL for this discussion in the report to eBay, since they are clueless.

TigersFan2 · October 2, 2015 12:28AM

This in a way illustrates the absence of a desired feature on EBay. They allow sellers to have a blocked bidders list, but they don't allow bidders to have a blocked sellers list. I'd love to have a blocked sellers list and put these sellers of counterfeit coins on it such that I would be blocked from bidding on their auctions in the future. I don't ever want to buy from this seller, but in 6 months or a year, I'll likely forget about this counterfeit auction and I might bid on something this seller is selling.

LindeDad · October 2, 2015 12:48AM

It's pretty easy to make word doc that a list of what one considers bad sellers.

Cougar1978 · October 2, 2015 12:51AM

The 1902-S Ten Lib in the auc pic is not the same coin from the NGC cert verify page. The coin on the NGC verify page has nice luster and the detail one would expect for an UNC. The auc pic does not.

The auc pic coin is fake IMO - it looks like a circ, dull, numerous other prob. One of the tell tale signs of counterfeits is striking weakness - this should send a red flag. I find it unbelievable people are even bidding on this when I have listed nice modern commem silver dollars in PCGS or NGC 69 starting at 5c below CDN Bid and few get bids. I guess they would just rather get hosed on big ticket fakes. I wonder about the look on their face when they shop this material around the bourse and dealers point out problems / coin is fake. Its a wake up call to anyone setting up at shows to be extra careful in looking at coins brought to their table being offered.

The gall of these sellers blatantly listing fakes like this does infuriate me. Who is producing the fake slabs - the seller or someone he buys these from I wonder? That fake slab operation needs to be shut down.

messydesk · October 2, 2015 12:55AM

Still waiting to hear of the first seller of fake slabs to be sued by a grading service under the new and improved Hobby Protection Act.

TigersFan2 · October 2, 2015 1:05AM

<< It's pretty easy to make word doc that a list of what one considers bad sellers.

>>

But it's very time consuming and cumbersome to need to open it and check against it with every Ebay auction I consider bidding on. Not really that practical.

coinhack · October 2, 2015 1:06AM

Am I mistaken, or did he take that photograph with the coin sitting on a toilet seat?

asheland · October 2, 2015 1:13AM

I doubt they even used real gold for it.

LanceNewmanOCC · October 2, 2015 2:34AM

<< Still waiting to hear of the first seller of fake slabs to be sued by a grading service under the new and improved Hobby Protection Act. >>

fwiw, 99% of these things fly under the radar.

if you do search cases, know how that is, come up with precedents/verdicts, please dont leave me out in the cold.

ive researched a few and they inspired me.

---------------
that 02-s is one of the oddest "gold" fakes ive seen.

glad you linked them, especially slabbed ones with good images.
----------
LINK to sold items.
.

silverpop · October 2, 2015 2:39AM

segoja · October 2, 2015 2:41AM

I'm always amazed at how out of focus these scammers pics are.

you would think people would pick up on that.

dpoole · October 2, 2015 2:50AM

Disturbing that he has 100% positive feedback.

TigersFan2 · October 2, 2015 2:55AM

Given the number of questionable NGC coins he's selling and has sold, it seems like it would be relatively easy for NGC's lawyers to get a court order to get the seller's personal information and the personal information of each of the buyers (to get the evidence) in order to either (1) prosecute the seller criminally and/or (2) sue the seller civilly. At least investigate the seller to determine his source and whether he knew they were counterfeit.

PCGS and NGC need to take some legal steps to stop this sort of thing to make it harder to sell these counterfeit slabs. I don't know the legal end to know what complications and difficulties it presents.

USMoneylover · October 2, 2015 3:33AM

The seller uses (I'm assuming) his name as his Ebay handle...if you google that name and go to their Facebook page, it's interesting the groups they're involved in and also the friends they have.

19Lyds · October 2, 2015 3:35AM

<< I'm always amazed at how out of focus these scammers pics are.

you would think people would pick up on that. >>

Number 4 and number 6 are actually NOT that bad.

Alltheabove76 · October 2, 2015 3:40AM

He runs these as 1 day auctions so that they don't get yanked or at least have less of a chance of being pulled by ebay. Clearly a bad guy that knows they are fake and is committing several felonies here. Hope he's prepared to do the time, because I doubt it would be very hard to catch him.

TigersFan2 · October 2, 2015 3:44AM

<< The seller uses (I'm assuming) his name as his Ebay handle...if you google that name and go to their Facebook page, it's interesting the groups they're involved in and also the friends they have. >>

How are you determining which Mike Torres in Tennessee is him? I see none listed for Caryville.

USMoneylover · October 2, 2015 4:18AM

<< 

<< The seller uses (I'm assuming) his name as his Ebay handle...if you google that name and go to their Facebook page, it's interesting the groups they're involved in and also the friends they have. >>

How are you determining which Mike Torres in Tennessee is him? I see none listed for Caryville. >>

I googled Mike Torres Coins and the first facebook page on the list google gave me I clicked. He has coins and coin related stuff on his page, I really didn't dig any deeper than that.

TigersFan2 · October 2, 2015 4:33AM

<< 

<< 

<< The seller uses (I'm assuming) his name as his Ebay handle...if you google that name and go to their Facebook page, it's interesting the groups they're involved in and also the friends they have. >>

How are you determining which Mike Torres in Tennessee is him? I see none listed for Caryville. >>

I googled Mike Torres Coins and the first facebook page on the list google gave me I clicked. He has coins and coin related stuff on his page, I really didn't dig any deeper than that. >>

I don't think that's the same Mike Torres. That FB page is of a Mike Torres who lives and is from Los Angeles. The auction Mike Torres is in Caryville, Tennessee.

Alltheabove76 · October 2, 2015 4:35AM

Its a very common name

commoncents05 · October 2, 2015 1:00PM

Just FYI, I won the $10 on eBay earlier today. The seller messaged me and said he doesn't want me to pay for it because someone messaged him and told him the coin is counterfeit.

-Paul

TigersFan2 · October 2, 2015 2:00PM

<< Just FYI, I won the $10 on eBay earlier today. The seller messaged me and said he doesn't want me to pay for it because someone messaged him and told him the coin is counterfeit.

-Paul >>

It sounds like the seller is honest and not trying to pawn off a fake coin. Did you bid on the coin knowing it's a fake to keep it out of someone else's hands?

Christos · October 2, 2015 2:10PM

<< Just FYI, I won the $10 on eBay earlier today. The seller messaged me and said he doesn't want me to pay for it because someone messaged him and told him the coin is counterfeit.

-Paul >>

I sent the seller a very nice msg about his coins being counterfeit, that selling them is a violation of the HPA no matter where you are in the world. I also recommended getting an attorney so that he could go after the person who sold him the coins just like what may happen here. I further gave links to actual coins to look at to help determine fakes. I also recommended reading any information regarding his screen name and coins he could find on the internet.

The seller got back to me, thanked me for my help and said he was pulling the listings. He also asked if any of the other coins sold were fake. Seems actually interested in doing the right thing, we will see if the coins get relisted and if I get more questions. I did recommend getting a membership to PCGS and checking out the boards as alot of information and help can be had here.

I don't always get very good responses from sellers but on occasion when I approach them in a polite way good things happen.

ArizonaRareCoins · October 2, 2015 3:19PM

Don't be fooled, ALL of his certified coins he sold on eBay are counterfeit coins and holders:

1. counterfeit 1902-s $10 gold NGC MS-61:
counterfeit 1

2. counterfeit 1906 $10 gold PCGS MS-64:
counterfeit 2

3. counterfeit 1902-s $10 gold NGC MS-62:
counterfeit 3

4. counterfeit 1902-s $10 gold NGC MS-62:
counterfeit 4

5. counterfeit 1902-s $10 gold NGC MS-63:
counterfeit 5

6. counterfeit 1881-cc morgan PCGS MS-64:
counterfeit 6

He's only refunding your sale because he got caught this time.

Alltheabove76 · October 2, 2015 8:29PM

I agree, the fact he runs these in one day auctions proves he knows.

Alltheabove76 · October 2, 2015 8:30PM

<< 

<< Just FYI, I won the $10 on eBay earlier today. The seller messaged me and said he doesn't want me to pay for it because someone messaged him and told him the coin is counterfeit.

-Paul >>

I sent the seller a very nice msg about his coins being counterfeit, that selling them is a violation of the HPA no matter where you are in the world. I also recommended getting an attorney so that he could go after the person who sold him the coins just like what may happen here. I further gave links to actual coins to look at to help determine fakes. I also recommended reading any information regarding his screen name and coins he could find on the internet.

The seller got back to me, thanked me for my help and said he was pulling the listings. He also asked if any of the other coins sold were fake. Seems actually interested in doing the right thing, we will see if the coins get relisted and if I get more questions. I did recommend getting a membership to PCGS and checking out the boards as alot of information and help can be had here.

I don't always get very good responses from sellers but on occasion when I approach them in a polite way good things happen. >>

You are just giving him pointers on how to be a better scammer.

LanceNewmanOCC · October 3, 2015 3:46AM

.
the ASE are junk, most of the morgans slabbed/raw are junk, most if not all of the gold coin slabs are junk and because of this i am starting to suspect all of the currency, slabbed/raw. (possibly the peace but i didnt confirm)

LINK
.

coindeuce · October 3, 2015 5:03AM

Watch for many of these coins to reappear soon under a different seller ID. Heed the warnings of ArizonaRareCoins and Alltheabove76. The reality of it is that sleazeBay will continue to look the other way.

TigersFan2 · October 3, 2015 5:51AM

I think the real solution here is if NGC and PCGS would get involved when someone is selling many fakes. It shouldn't be too difficult for NGC or PCGS to get the seller's information through Ebay and file the necessary criminal charges with law enforcement or civil lawsuits.

Alltheabove76 · October 3, 2015 6:30AM

<< I think the real solution here is if NGC and PCGS would get involved when someone is selling many fakes. It shouldn't be too difficult for NGC or PCGS to get the seller's information through Ebay and file the necessary criminal charges with law enforcement or civil lawsuits. >>

Those fake NGC slabs look very very good. If I were them, I would be aggressively doing whatever I could to stop them.

If the scammer was less greedy, he could easily put authentic coins in them at a higher grade than they are and would be much more difficult to catch.

Hydrant · October 6, 2015 5:59PM

Maybe the buyer collects counterfeits. Many very highly regarded people do. I could name a few. Or more.

ArizonaRareCoins · October 6, 2015 7:40PM

All of his counterfeit coins/slabs have been removed by eBay, except for this one:
6. counterfeit 1881-cc morgan PCGS MS-64:
countefeit 6

Not sure why eBay would not NARU him and what's even more perplexing is why did they remove all his other counterfeit holders, but not this one?

ebaytrader · October 6, 2015 9:13PM

<< 

Not sure why eBay would not NARU him and what's even more perplexing is why did they remove all his other counterfeit holders, but not this one? >>

Because they're making $$$ off of the sales. They probably cringe at the thought of paying someone to take down the counterfeits.

NGC and PCGS could join the feepay VeRO (Verified Rights Owner) program wherein a complaint by either would mean the immediate removal of the sale item, and a warning to the seller that if caught again that the seller is banned, and their accounts are usually restricted from that point for as much as a year. It's really the only solution that works well because feepay stands to lose big in court should they not take action. The failure of these two entities to protect their product more agressively is a real head scratcher. I've lost a few sales from newby and naive collectors not knowing if the coins and holders were counterfeit, and if I can't sell freshly graded coins in their holders I certainly don't need to submit coins to them.

seller on ebay has sold multiple counterfeit pcgs and ngc coins

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