<< <i>I don't understand why the thread turned into a valuation question, but the reason it is priced at $5000 is because it is a truly unique coin with outstanding eye appeal, prooflike surfaces with die straitions that enhance the look. Although I set the asking price, it is a consignment coin. I was scheduled to pay the consignor $4,500 yesterday, so we are both happy to have it back. The interesting thing is that the coin still had my photo seal with my phone number and web site URL as well as my price sticker with the asking price of $5,000 still attached. Perhaps any dealer being offered this coin with that information on it being sold at $1,000 would have been suspicious. >>
If the coin was offered to someone as you describe, would it have been appropriate for that person to call you?
If the coin was offered to someone as you describe, would it have been appropriate for that person to call you?
Yes, that would have been the thing to do. The dealer had every intention to offer me the coin, as he'd told some other people that he "had to show it to Rick" at the Vegas show last week. I don't think he had any clue it was stolen.
I once offered some coins to a local dealer and he told me that, "Collector guides give phony prices to make people feel good about their collection". Never went back to that dealer again.
<< <i>If the coin was offered to someone as you describe, would it have been appropriate for that person to call you?
Yes, that would have been the thing to do. The dealer had every intention to offer me the coin, as he'd told some other people that he "had to show it to Rick" at the Vegas show last week. I don't think he had any clue it was stolen. >>
Just out of curiosity, could the average dealer [the one who showed you the coin] ever expect to get $5K or even close to $5K for the coin?
You know it is quite a blow to your trust when things like this happen. Most would not even post anything like this for fear that people will think they are lax for some reason. I think most dealers run into stolen credit card fraud at least once. Most would keep it quiet. My respect for some of the long-time forum members that have posted derogatory comments has diminished greatly. My post was meant to highlight a bad situation that got corrected.
<< <i>You know it is quite a blow to your trust when things like this happen. Most would not even post anything like this for fear that people will think they are lax for some reason. I think most dealers run into stolen credit card fraud at least once. Most would keep it quiet. My respect for some of the long-time forum members that have posted derogatory comments has diminished greatly. My post was meant to highlight a bad situation that got corrected. >>
<< <i>Perhaps any dealer being offered this coin with that information on it being sold at $1,000 would have been suspicious.
Perhaps, but that doesn't make him unscrupulous. Otherwise, he would have removed the sticker and offered it to someone else.
And sorry my comments turned the thread, but it bothered me to see people essentially calling the other dealer a thief. >>
Well, I don't think that people were referring to him as a thief in the strictest sense because he did didn't take the coin from the seller when the seller had his back turned or something like that. I'm sure you're well aware of the common expression for getting an especially good deal as being a "steal".
Well, I don't think that people were referring to him as a thief in the strictest sense because he did didn't take the coin from the seller when the seller had his back turned or something like that. I'm sure you're well aware of the common expression for getting an especially good deal as being a "steal".
bajjerfan - It's true that nobody accused the shopowner of stealing the coin in the literal sense. However, as early as the third post in the thread, coinbuf started bashing the shopowner that bought the coin for 1K. And a couple of posts later, we saw this:
I will also 2nd what coinbuf said! A dealer that pays $1K for a $5K coin is a dealer that I would never want to work with when selling!
And others piled on after that.
I thought this was unfair, and should be addressed. You simply cannot expect every shopowner to have the highly specialized knowledge and customer base it would require to figure this coin for anything close to 5K.
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
As to what the other dealer bought it for: would it have been better if the other dealer paid the crook $3500 for it instead of the $1000? I don't think so.
To me the result as it turned out is probably as best you can possibly ask for in this situation. I'm glad Eagleye got his coin back....
Very happy for Rick and his consignor. It does take the wind out of your sails when someone defrauds you like that - and no recourse other than taking it on the chin.
I hope the Proof - 1864 L IHC is returned as well. Good luck with that !
Mike Hayes ~~~~~~~~~~~~ Coin collecting is not a hobby, it's an obsession !
My first reply was made without reading all of the replies to this thread.
I've now read all of the replies to this thread. And I'm certain that paying $1000 for this coin was a hose job. I'm tired of dealers twisting themselves into pretzels to explain why a rip is actually quite fair...it's absurd. Integrity for integrity's sake is rightfully appreciated on this forum yet these rip scenarios too often reveal holes in the cheese.
<< <i>My first reply was made without reading all of the replies to this thread.
I've now read all of the replies to this thread. And I'm certain that paying $1000 for this coin was a hose job. I'm tired of dealers twisting themselves into pretzels to explain why a rip is actually quite fair...it's absurd. Integrity for integrity's sake is rightfully appreciated on this forum yet these rip scenarios too often reveal holes in the cheese. >>
You simply cannot expect every shopowner to have the highly specialized knowledge and customer base it would require to figure this coin for anything close to 5K.
Of course not; how many people in the whole wide world have that kind of knowledge and customer base?
Congrats on getting the coin back, would love to see a picture.
In May I had a 1909 Indian cent MS66+RD PCGS Photoseal/CAC worth $5,000 purchased with a stolen Credit card. It took three weeks to find out it was a fraudulent purchase, and we tried to alert local coin shops in Kansas and Nebraska, where the crook lives.
Well, I was sitting at Charmy's table yesterday and another dealer approached me with the coin, asking if I wanted to buy it. I said "I already own it!" And showed him the invoice and postal fraud report.
So, I worked out a deal with the dealer. I offered him a finders reward of $1,000 which is what he paid for it over the counter in his shop. I was told that I didn't have to compensate him, but I though it was the right thing to do.
I am very happy to have this great coin back. >>
I'm happy for you that you got the coin back; but this other dealer only paid the seller 1k for a 5k coin. >>
Sounds like there might be more than one thief in this story. Just kidding.
<< <i>Well, I don't think that people were referring to him as a thief in the strictest sense because he did didn't take the coin from the seller when the seller had his back turned or something like that. I'm sure you're well aware of the common expression for getting an especially good deal as being a "steal".
bajjerfan - It's true that nobody accused the shopowner of stealing the coin in the literal sense. However, as early as the third post in the thread, coinbuf started bashing the shopowner that bought the coin for 1K. And a couple of posts later, we saw this:
I will also 2nd what coinbuf said! A dealer that pays $1K for a $5K coin is a dealer that I would never want to work with when selling!
And others piled on after that.
I thought this was unfair, and should be addressed. You simply cannot expect every shopowner to have the highly specialized knowledge and customer base it would require to figure this coin for anything close to 5K. >>
If a dealer lacks the intellect or knowledge to sell the coin for a fair price, then he should pass on the coin. Rather, he saw the opportunity for a rip and took it. And to be clear, we are talking about Long Beach, one of the largest coin shows where a good number of potential buyers are. It would have served this dealer well if Rick paid him NOTHING.
I have no dog in this fight (other than a lot of pleasure that you got you coin back) but what is your opinion of the price paid by the first dealer ($1,000) to the seller?
<< <i>You simply cannot expect every shopowner to have the highly specialized knowledge and customer base it would require to figure this coin for anything close to 5K.
Of course not; how many people in the whole wide world have that kind of knowledge and customer base?
Congrats on getting the coin back, would love to see a picture. >>
50s ,60s , your conclusion may be correct .... but now any ,all info available instantly, at touch of a computer,,,,
<< <i>You simply cannot expect every shopowner to have the highly specialized knowledge and customer base it would require to figure this coin for anything close to 5K.
Of course not; how many people in the whole wide world have that kind of knowledge and customer base?
Congrats on getting the coin back, would love to see a picture. >>
50s ,60s , your conclusion may be correct .... but now any ,all info available instantly, at touch of a computer,,,, >>
Yes..info like the earlier mentioned Heritage sale price of a 66 recently for $969 for instance?
Not defending the guy in the slightest as I don't know him... but not every dealer magically knows the end of the road retail market for every coin series, despite what some here persistently think. If he doesn't know the high end Indian market and went online quickly while the customer was there (Heritage is a common place to look up quick comps on nicer slabbed stuff) and saw this $969 number, I could conceivably understand the rationale of paying $1000 thinking perhaps that the $5k sticker might have been put on there by the customer for all he knew...and that since the Heritage piece wasn't stickered and this one is, he should be able to make some money flipping it at LB.
All of that is unimportant though. Bottom line, Rick got his coin back. That's what's important.
<< <i>You simply cannot expect every shopowner to have the highly specialized knowledge and customer base it would require to figure this coin for anything close to 5K.
Of course not; how many people in the whole wide world have that kind of knowledge and customer base?
Congrats on getting the coin back, would love to see a picture. >>
50s ,60s , your conclusion may be correct .... but now any ,all info available instantly, at touch of a computer,,,, >>
Yes..info like the earlier mentioned Heritage sale price of a 66 recently for $969 for instance?
Not defending the guy in the slightest as I don't know him... but not every dealer magically knows the end of the road retail market for every coin series, despite what some here persistently think. If he doesn't know the high end Indian market and went online quickly while the customer was there (Heritage is a common place to look up quick comps on nicer slabbed stuff) and saw this $969 number, I could conceivably understand the rationale of paying $1000 thinking perhaps that the $5k sticker might have been put on there by the customer for all he knew...and that since the Heritage piece wasn't stickered and this one is, he should be able to make some money flipping it at LB.
All of that is unimportant though. Bottom line, Rick got his coin back. That's what's important. >>
What you are saying is the coin is worth circa $1,000.... if that is true ,how can a sale of price of the coin be $5,000 ,, add it up ..it doesn't
<< <i>You simply cannot expect every shopowner to have the highly specialized knowledge and customer base it would require to figure this coin for anything close to 5K.
Of course not; how many people in the whole wide world have that kind of knowledge and customer base?
Congrats on getting the coin back, would love to see a picture. >>
50s ,60s , your conclusion may be correct .... but now any ,all info available instantly, at touch of a computer,,,, >>
Yes..info like the earlier mentioned Heritage sale price of a 66 recently for $969 for instance?
Not defending the guy in the slightest as I don't know him... but not every dealer magically knows the end of the road retail market for every coin series, despite what some here persistently think. If he doesn't know the high end Indian market and went online quickly while the customer was there (Heritage is a common place to look up quick comps on nicer slabbed stuff) and saw this $969 number, I could conceivably understand the rationale of paying $1000 thinking perhaps that the $5k sticker might have been put on there by the customer for all he knew...and that since the Heritage piece wasn't stickered and this one is, he should be able to make some money flipping it at LB.
All of that is unimportant though. Bottom line, Rick got his coin back. That's what's important. >>
What you are saying is the coin is worth circa $1,000.... if that is true ,how can a sale of price of the coin be $5,000 ,, add it up ..it doesn't >>
No, that's not what I'm saying. Reread my post, particularly the bolded portion. I'm saying that $1000 might be all HE thought it was worth if he saw that HA number. He certainly wasn't going to pay $5000 for it over the counter regardless.
What you are saying is the coin is worth circa $1,000.... if that is true ,how can a sale of price of the coin be $5,000 ,, add it up ..it doesn't >>
Just a thought, but there are only 2 people that claim the price of $5,000 The seller and the "fake" buyer with stolen credit cards... A value of $5,000 was never really established with a "real" buyer...
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Perhaps, but that doesn't make him unscrupulous. Otherwise, he would have removed the sticker and offered it to someone else.
And sorry my comments turned the thread, but it bothered me to see people essentially calling the other dealer a thief.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Also - I don't want to paint the dealer who retrieved it in a negative light. He is in business and has his own reasons for every decision he makes.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i> I was told that I didn't have to compensate him. >>
So he was just going to give you a thousand bucks out of his own pocket? Nice guy. >>
If he buys stolen property that's his tough luck. >>
It gets recorded and reported. I won't go into details. Who else heads who off at the pass ?
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i> I was told that I didn't have to compensate him. >>
So he was just going to give you a thousand bucks out of his own pocket? Nice guy. >>
If he buys stolen property that's his tough luck. >>
It gets recorded and reported. I won't go into details. Who else heads who off at the pass ? >>
There is a degree of risk in buying coins from people you don't know. Even recording and reporting won't always get you your $$ back.
<< <i>I don't understand why the thread turned into a valuation question, but the reason it is priced at $5000 is because it is a truly unique coin with outstanding eye appeal, prooflike surfaces with die straitions that enhance the look. Although I set the asking price, it is a consignment coin. I was scheduled to pay the consignor $4,500 yesterday, so we are both happy to have it back. The interesting thing is that the coin still had my photo seal with my phone number and web site URL as well as my price sticker with the asking price of $5,000 still attached. Perhaps any dealer being offered this coin with that information on it being sold at $1,000 would have been suspicious. >>
If the coin was offered to someone as you describe, would it have been appropriate for that person to call you?
Yes, that would have been the thing to do. The dealer had every intention to offer me the coin, as he'd told some other people that he "had to show it to Rick" at the Vegas show last week. I don't think he had any clue it was stolen.
I once offered some coins to a local dealer and he told me that, "Collector guides give phony prices to make people feel good about their collection". Never went back to that dealer again.
<< <i>If the coin was offered to someone as you describe, would it have been appropriate for that person to call you?
Yes, that would have been the thing to do. The dealer had every intention to offer me the coin, as he'd told some other people that he "had to show it to Rick" at the Vegas show last week. I don't think he had any clue it was stolen. >>
Just out of curiosity, could the average dealer [the one who showed you the coin] ever expect to get $5K or even close to $5K for the coin?
PCGS Registries
Box of 20
SeaEagleCoins: 11/14/54-4/5/12. Miss you Larry!
<< <i>With two high priced coins stolen from your cases, what are you doing to beef up security? >>
One was stolen with a CC, so the fix would be to stop accepting credit cards.
<< <i>I was sitting at Charmy's table yesterday >>
This might be the reason why it is so easy to swipe coins!
<< <i>You know it is quite a blow to your trust when things like this happen. Most would not even post anything like this for fear that people will think they are lax for some reason. I think most dealers run into stolen credit card fraud at least once. Most would keep it quiet. My respect for some of the long-time forum members that have posted derogatory comments has diminished greatly. My post was meant to highlight a bad situation that got corrected. >>
Coin's for sale/trade.
Tom Pilitowski
US Rare Coin Investments
800-624-1870
<< <i>Perhaps any dealer being offered this coin with that information on it being sold at $1,000 would have been suspicious.
Perhaps, but that doesn't make him unscrupulous. Otherwise, he would have removed the sticker and offered it to someone else.
And sorry my comments turned the thread, but it bothered me to see people essentially calling the other dealer a thief. >>
Well, I don't think that people were referring to him as a thief in the strictest sense because he did didn't take the coin from the seller when the seller had his back turned or something like that. I'm sure you're well aware of the common expression for getting an especially good deal as being a "steal".
bajjerfan - It's true that nobody accused the shopowner of stealing the coin in the literal sense. However, as early as the third post in the thread, coinbuf started bashing the shopowner that bought the coin for 1K. And a couple of posts later, we saw this:
I will also 2nd what coinbuf said! A dealer that pays $1K for a $5K coin is a dealer that I would never want to work with when selling!
And others piled on after that.
I thought this was unfair, and should be addressed. You simply cannot expect every shopowner to have the highly specialized knowledge and customer base it would require to figure this coin for anything close to 5K.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
.....the dealer who bought this coin for $1000 really STOLE it....so it's satisfyingly appropriate that he did not make any money from his part...
To me the result as it turned out is probably as best you can possibly ask for in this situation. I'm glad Eagleye got his coin back....
jom
Very happy for Rick and his consignor. It does take the wind out of your sails when someone
defrauds you like that - and no recourse other than taking it on the chin.
I hope the Proof - 1864 L IHC is returned as well. Good luck with that !
~~~~~~~~~~~~
Coin collecting is not a hobby, it's an obsession !
New Barber Purchases
I've now read all of the replies to this thread. And I'm certain that paying $1000 for this coin was a hose job. I'm tired of dealers twisting themselves into pretzels to explain why a rip is actually quite fair...it's absurd. Integrity for integrity's sake is rightfully appreciated on this forum yet these rip scenarios too often reveal holes in the cheese.
<< <i>My first reply was made without reading all of the replies to this thread.
I've now read all of the replies to this thread. And I'm certain that paying $1000 for this coin was a hose job. I'm tired of dealers twisting themselves into pretzels to explain why a rip is actually quite fair...it's absurd. Integrity for integrity's sake is rightfully appreciated on this forum yet these rip scenarios too often reveal holes in the cheese. >>
Nice to see someone honest
Of course not; how many people in the whole wide world have that kind of knowledge and customer base?
Congrats on getting the coin back, would love to see a picture.
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
<< <i>
<< <i>No, sadly it is not a 1864-L proof.
In May I had a 1909 Indian cent MS66+RD PCGS Photoseal/CAC worth $5,000 purchased with a stolen Credit card. It took three weeks to find out it was a fraudulent purchase, and we tried to alert local coin shops in Kansas and Nebraska, where the crook lives.
Well, I was sitting at Charmy's table yesterday and another dealer approached me with the coin, asking if I wanted to buy it. I said "I already own it!" And showed him the invoice and postal fraud report.
So, I worked out a deal with the dealer. I offered him a finders reward of $1,000 which is what he paid for it over the counter in his shop. I was told that I didn't have to compensate him, but I though it was the right thing to do.
I am very happy to have this great coin back. >>
I'm happy for you that you got the coin back; but this other dealer only paid the seller 1k for a 5k coin.
Sounds like there might be more than one thief in this story.
<< <i>Well, I don't think that people were referring to him as a thief in the strictest sense because he did didn't take the coin from the seller when the seller had his back turned or something like that. I'm sure you're well aware of the common expression for getting an especially good deal as being a "steal".
bajjerfan - It's true that nobody accused the shopowner of stealing the coin in the literal sense. However, as early as the third post in the thread, coinbuf started bashing the shopowner that bought the coin for 1K. And a couple of posts later, we saw this:
I will also 2nd what coinbuf said! A dealer that pays $1K for a $5K coin is a dealer that I would never want to work with when selling!
And others piled on after that.
I thought this was unfair, and should be addressed. You simply cannot expect every shopowner to have the highly specialized knowledge and customer base it would require to figure this coin for anything close to 5K. >>
If a dealer lacks the intellect or knowledge to sell the coin for a fair price, then he should pass on the coin. Rather, he saw the opportunity for a rip and took it. And to be clear, we are talking about Long Beach, one of the largest coin shows where a good number of potential buyers are. It would have served this dealer well if Rick paid him NOTHING.
I have no dog in this fight (other than a lot of pleasure that you got you coin back) but what is your opinion of the price paid by the first dealer ($1,000) to the seller?
<< <i>You simply cannot expect every shopowner to have the highly specialized knowledge and customer base it would require to figure this coin for anything close to 5K.
Of course not; how many people in the whole wide world have that kind of knowledge and customer base?
Congrats on getting the coin back, would love to see a picture. >>
50s ,60s , your conclusion may be correct .... but now any ,all info available instantly, at touch of a computer,,,,
<< <i>
<< <i>You simply cannot expect every shopowner to have the highly specialized knowledge and customer base it would require to figure this coin for anything close to 5K.
Of course not; how many people in the whole wide world have that kind of knowledge and customer base?
Congrats on getting the coin back, would love to see a picture. >>
50s ,60s , your conclusion may be correct .... but now any ,all info available instantly, at touch of a computer,,,, >>
Yes..info like the earlier mentioned Heritage sale price of a 66 recently for $969 for instance?
Not defending the guy in the slightest as I don't know him... but not every dealer magically knows the end of the road retail market for every coin series, despite what some here persistently think. If he doesn't know the high end Indian market and went online quickly while the customer was there (Heritage is a common place to look up quick comps on nicer slabbed stuff) and saw this $969 number, I could conceivably understand the rationale of paying $1000 thinking perhaps that the $5k sticker might have been put on there by the customer for all he knew...and that since the Heritage piece wasn't stickered and this one is, he should be able to make some money flipping it at LB.
All of that is unimportant though. Bottom line, Rick got his coin back. That's what's important.
RIP Mom- 1932-2012
My YouTube Channel
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>You simply cannot expect every shopowner to have the highly specialized knowledge and customer base it would require to figure this coin for anything close to 5K.
Of course not; how many people in the whole wide world have that kind of knowledge and customer base?
Congrats on getting the coin back, would love to see a picture. >>
50s ,60s , your conclusion may be correct .... but now any ,all info available instantly, at touch of a computer,,,, >>
Yes..info like the earlier mentioned Heritage sale price of a 66 recently for $969 for instance?
Not defending the guy in the slightest as I don't know him... but not every dealer magically knows the end of the road retail market for every coin series, despite what some here persistently think. If he doesn't know the high end Indian market and went online quickly while the customer was there (Heritage is a common place to look up quick comps on nicer slabbed stuff) and saw this $969 number, I could conceivably understand the rationale of paying $1000 thinking perhaps that the $5k sticker might have been put on there by the customer for all he knew...and that since the Heritage piece wasn't stickered and this one is, he should be able to make some money flipping it at LB.
All of that is unimportant though. Bottom line, Rick got his coin back. That's what's important. >>
What you are saying is the coin is worth circa $1,000.... if that is true ,how can a sale of price of the coin be $5,000 ,, add it up ..it doesn't
Just think, had it not been stolen, he could have earned the cherished "You Suck" award.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>You simply cannot expect every shopowner to have the highly specialized knowledge and customer base it would require to figure this coin for anything close to 5K.
Of course not; how many people in the whole wide world have that kind of knowledge and customer base?
Congrats on getting the coin back, would love to see a picture. >>
50s ,60s , your conclusion may be correct .... but now any ,all info available instantly, at touch of a computer,,,, >>
Yes..info like the earlier mentioned Heritage sale price of a 66 recently for $969 for instance?
Not defending the guy in the slightest as I don't know him... but not every dealer magically knows the end of the road retail market for every coin series, despite what some here persistently think. If he doesn't know the high end Indian market and went online quickly while the customer was there (Heritage is a common place to look up quick comps on nicer slabbed stuff) and saw this $969 number, I could conceivably understand the rationale of paying $1000 thinking perhaps that the $5k sticker might have been put on there by the customer for all he knew...and that since the Heritage piece wasn't stickered and this one is, he should be able to make some money flipping it at LB.
All of that is unimportant though. Bottom line, Rick got his coin back. That's what's important. >>
What you are saying is the coin is worth circa $1,000.... if that is true ,how can a sale of price of the coin be $5,000 ,, add it up ..it doesn't >>
No, that's not what I'm saying. Reread my post, particularly the bolded portion. I'm saying that $1000 might be all HE thought it was worth if he saw that HA number. He certainly wasn't going to pay $5000 for it over the counter regardless.
RIP Mom- 1932-2012
What you are saying is the coin is worth circa $1,000.... if that is true ,how can a sale of price of the coin be $5,000 ,, add it up ..it doesn't >>
Just a thought, but there are only 2 people that claim the price of $5,000
The seller and the "fake" buyer with stolen credit cards...
A value of $5,000 was never really established with a "real" buyer...
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