Stolen coin recovered at Long Beach.
EagleEye
Posts: 7,677 ✭✭✭✭✭
No, sadly it is not a 1864-L proof.
In May I had a 1909 Indian cent MS66+RD PCGS Photoseal/CAC worth $5,000 purchased with a stolen Credit card. It took three weeks to find out it was a fraudulent purchase, and we tried to alert local coin shops in Kansas and Nebraska, where the crook lives.
Well, I was sitting at Charmy's table yesterday and another dealer approached me with the coin, asking if I wanted to buy it. I said "I already own it!" And showed him the invoice and postal fraud report.
So, I worked out a deal with the dealer. I offered him a finders reward of $1,000 which is what he paid for it over the counter in his shop. I was told that I didn't have to compensate him, but I though it was the right thing to do.
I am very happy to have this great coin back.
In May I had a 1909 Indian cent MS66+RD PCGS Photoseal/CAC worth $5,000 purchased with a stolen Credit card. It took three weeks to find out it was a fraudulent purchase, and we tried to alert local coin shops in Kansas and Nebraska, where the crook lives.
Well, I was sitting at Charmy's table yesterday and another dealer approached me with the coin, asking if I wanted to buy it. I said "I already own it!" And showed him the invoice and postal fraud report.
So, I worked out a deal with the dealer. I offered him a finders reward of $1,000 which is what he paid for it over the counter in his shop. I was told that I didn't have to compensate him, but I though it was the right thing to do.
I am very happy to have this great coin back.
Rick Snow, Eagle Eye Rare Coins, Inc.Check out my new web site:
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Joseph J. Singleton - First Superintendent of the U.S. Branch Mint in Dahlonega Georgia
Findley Ridge Collection
About Findley Ridge
<< <i>No, sadly it is not a 1864-L proof.
In May I had a 1909 Indian cent MS66+RD PCGS Photoseal/CAC worth $5,000 purchased with a stolen Credit card. It took three weeks to find out it was a fraudulent purchase, and we tried to alert local coin shops in Kansas and Nebraska, where the crook lives.
Well, I was sitting at Charmy's table yesterday and another dealer approached me with the coin, asking if I wanted to buy it. I said "I already own it!" And showed him the invoice and postal fraud report.
So, I worked out a deal with the dealer. I offered him a finders reward of $1,000 which is what he paid for it over the counter in his shop. I was told that I didn't have to compensate him, but I though it was the right thing to do.
I am very happy to have this great coin back. >>
I'm happy for you that you got the coin back; but this other dealer only paid the seller 1k for a 5k coin.
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
Great News
That is very kind.
I will also 2nd what coinbuf said! A dealer that pays $1K for a $5K coin is a dealer that I would never want to work with when selling!
So many dealers do this type of stuff and then they wonder why they can't get nice stuff in any more...and the stuff goes straight to
auction instead. Grrrrrr.
Edit: What happened to the guy that stole the coin? Any update on that?
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<< <i>
<< <i>No, sadly it is not a 1864-L proof.
In May I had a 1909 Indian cent MS66+RD PCGS Photoseal/CAC worth $5,000 purchased with a stolen Credit card. It took three weeks to find out it was a fraudulent purchase, and we tried to alert local coin shops in Kansas and Nebraska, where the crook lives.
Well, I was sitting at Charmy's table yesterday and another dealer approached me with the coin, asking if I wanted to buy it. I said "I already own it!" And showed him the invoice and postal fraud report.
So, I worked out a deal with the dealer. I offered him a finders reward of $1,000 which is what he paid for it over the counter in his shop. I was told that I didn't have to compensate him, but I though it was the right thing to do.
I am very happy to have this great coin back. >>
I'm happy for you that you got the coin back; but this other dealer only paid the seller 1k for a 5k coin.
That's EXACTLY what I was thinking....
My first reaction, when I read the title, though, was "He got the 1864-L proof back!!!" Sadly, that was dispelled in the first sentence
It was still good to hear a big (from my viewpoint) coin was recovered. Just sorry it cost again...though, that was a grand gesture to do as, as you were told, you didn't have to pay anything to recover your own stolen property.
If he wasn't made whole, he may have had some incentive to go after the crook himself. As it is, he will likely just count it off as his rip didn't work out but he isn't out anything.
(.....wonder what he was trying to get for the coin when he approached with the offer to sell....?)
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
Hoard the keys.
<< <i>Just curious how many coins have you got beaten up by fraud or theft? >>
If the coin was worth 5,000 why did the dealer only pay $1,000 to the thief
The 1864 will soon be found Rick
congrats and right on for being a stand up type of guy there too
much respect
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<< <i>Wow and nice of you. Now they need to get that other guy. >>
$1000 for a $5000 coin over-the-counter, though, sounds a little slimy to me, even with the overhead a B&M dealer has... also glad his rip didn't work out the way he planned.
but the dealers buy price, its a common occurrence , lots of the shop dealers simply burn people down and flat out rip folks off
I bought a really nice GSA 79-cc the other week, fortunately for the guy selling, he knew what he had. He had the 79-cc, 80-cc, 81-cc, 82-cc and 85-cc. He was offered 1500 for the coins at one shop and not far from that another.
if your asking, I paid 7k for the 79-cc. 500 for the 85-cc 750 for the other three
Coin's for sale/trade.
Tom Pilitowski
US Rare Coin Investments
800-624-1870
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.
<< <i>Did the other dealer say how he acquired it? >>
From Rick's OP at the top of the thread.....
<< <i>I offered him a finders reward of $1,000 which is what he paid for it over the counter in his shop. >>
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
And if the coin was only worth $1,000, why did Rick charge $5,000?
I ask not to give Rick a hard time, but because I wonder what some of you guys might offer for the same coin. It's so easy to not think for yourself and just call the other guy a thief.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
when you have top coins, they inevitably gravitate toward the usual big buyers.
amazing thiefs get away with as much as they seem to.
glad one made it back from oblivion. i was really getting tired of the usual, "they got away."
recently, these stories have been comin' round full circle.
.
Sux that the thief got $1k for his dirty work.
"If I say something in the woods and my wife isn't there to hear it.....am I still wrong?"
My Washington Quarter Registry set...in progress
<< <i>So, I worked out a deal with the dealer. I offered him a finders reward of $1,000 which is what he paid for it over the counter in his shop. I was told that I didn't have to compensate him, but I though it was the right thing to do. >>
Well done, Rick. Good guys DO NOT finish last.
<< <i>Happy for you to get your coin back.
Sux that the thief got $1k for his dirty work.
yep
wonder what the dealer was asking for it.
AB
<< <i>If the coin was worth 5,000 why did the dealer only pay $1,000 to the thief
And if the coin was only worth $1,000, why did Rick charge $5,000?
I ask not to give Rick a hard time, but because I wonder what some of you guys might offer for the same coin. It's so easy to not think for yourself and just call the other guy a thief. >>
Rick valued the coin at $5000 when it was sold to the crook, using the stolen credit card (which would mean that Rick never got to keep the funds). That's very fair to understand that way and not to try to beat him up on valuing it at $5000 but saying it was worth $1000 just because the thief sold it to a dealer for that price. Rick said it was WORTH $5000. What the thief sold it for and the dealer paid for it, was the $1000.
Also, PCGS Price Guide prices it at $3200 (without factoring potentials like CAC/Photoseal/top for the grade/etc). I didn't check auction results but PCGS Coinfacts show MS66 Red for over $1000 with auction results and MS67 Red for $6000-$10000+. So, it would seem to a simple guy like me that a MS66+ Red, particularly "blessed" with a photoseal/cac sticker, COULD easily be seen as worth closer to a MS67 price than the MS66 price.
But, what do I know? I'm only a guy who looked at some facts and numbers and not just trying to stir things up.....
Edited to correct my facts about it actually being sold by Rick.
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
<< <i>
<< <i>If the coin was worth 5,000 why did the dealer only pay $1,000 to the thief
And if the coin was only worth $1,000, why did Rick charge $5,000?
I ask not to give Rick a hard time, but because I wonder what some of you guys might offer for the same coin. It's so easy to not think for yourself and just call the other guy a thief. >>
Rick didn't "charge" anything. It was never sold. The $5000 comes from what he said he values it at. That's very fair to understand that way and not to try to beat him up on valuing it at $5000 but saying it was worth $1000. Rick said it was WORTH $5000. What the thief sold it for and the dealer paid for it.
Also, PCGS Price Guide prices it at $3200 (without factoring potentials like CAC/Photoseal/top for the grade/etc). I didn't check auction results but PCGS Coinfacts show MS66 Red for over $1000 with auction results and MS67 Red for $6000-$10000+. So, it would seem to a simple guy like me that a MS66+ Red, particularly "blessed" with a photoseal/cac sticker, COULD easily be seen as worth closer to a MS67 price than the MS66 price.
But, what do I know? I'm only a guy who looked at some facts and numbers and not just trying to stir things up..... >>
Ron, you read my mind, I felt the same way about how Rick came to a $5000 valuation, not hard to see the #'s. Only difference is, I didn't look up as many facts as you did, so you did the rest of the work for me...lol Congrats on getting your coin back, Rick, I'm sure it was nice to get that one off your mind!
On another note, I'd like to take the time to publicly thank you, Rick, as I purchased a very nice IHC in the last month. It was nicer in-hand than the images, and it was blessed with his PhotoSeal sticker. That in itself says a bunch. But, the BIG thanks is for the laminated card that accompanied the coin. I'm KNOW I'm WAY late to THIS dance, and this is more than likely old news to most, if not all here, but it's the first I had heard of/seen it, and I wanted to thank Rick, as I think it's a great addition to a coin, and personally, I think you have gone way above and beyond with it, Rick. An image of the obverse of the coin (showing his PhotoSeal sticker, and his Snow # stickered to it, as this one is not in the CPG, just yet) on the front of the card, and his certification of it's deserving his PhotoSeal blessing, and that it qualifies for the Eagle Eye high bid, and even autographed, to boot! I think it's a VERY classy addition, from a VERY classy guy...oh, and the COIN.... it's a REALLY nice IHC, obviously!! So, thank you again, Rick, and congrats on recovering your coin, again!
<< <i>
<< <i>If the coin was worth 5,000 why did the dealer only pay $1,000 to the thief
And if the coin was only worth $1,000, why did Rick charge $5,000?
I ask not to give Rick a hard time, but because I wonder what some of you guys might offer for the same coin. It's so easy to not think for yourself and just call the other guy a thief. >>
Rick didn't "charge" anything. It was never sold. The $5000 comes from what he said he values it at. That's very fair to understand that way and not to try to beat him up on valuing it at $5000 but saying it was worth $1000. Rick said it was WORTH $5000. What the thief sold it for and the dealer paid for it.
Also, PCGS Price Guide prices it at $3200 (without factoring potentials like CAC/Photoseal/top for the grade/etc). I didn't check auction results but PCGS Coinfacts show MS66 Red for over $1000 with auction results and MS67 Red for $6000-$10000+. So, it would seem to a simple guy like me that a MS66+ Red, particularly "blessed" with a photoseal/cac sticker, COULD easily be seen as worth closer to a MS67 price than the MS66 price.
But, what do I know? I'm only a guy who looked at some facts and numbers and not just trying to stir things up..... >>
Reread the 1st post ....Rick says he had a coin valued at $5,000 purchased with a stolen credit card.... it was in effect sold for what he valued it .. don't think ? ...since it was above the guide price his $ 5,000 valued amount was more likely the selling price
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>If the coin was worth 5,000 why did the dealer only pay $1,000 to the thief
And if the coin was only worth $1,000, why did Rick charge $5,000?
I ask not to give Rick a hard time, but because I wonder what some of you guys might offer for the same coin. It's so easy to not think for yourself and just call the other guy a thief. >>
Rick didn't "charge" anything. It was never sold. The $5000 comes from what he said he values it at. That's very fair to understand that way and not to try to beat him up on valuing it at $5000 but saying it was worth $1000. Rick said it was WORTH $5000. What the thief sold it for and the dealer paid for it.
Also, PCGS Price Guide prices it at $3200 (without factoring potentials like CAC/Photoseal/top for the grade/etc). I didn't check auction results but PCGS Coinfacts show MS66 Red for over $1000 with auction results and MS67 Red for $6000-$10000+. So, it would seem to a simple guy like me that a MS66+ Red, particularly "blessed" with a photoseal/cac sticker, COULD easily be seen as worth closer to a MS67 price than the MS66 price.
But, what do I know? I'm only a guy who looked at some facts and numbers and not just trying to stir things up..... >>
Reread the 1st post ....Rick says he had a coin valued at $5,000 purchased with a stolen credit card.... it was in effect sold for what he valued it .. don't think ? ...since it was above the guide price his $ 5,000 valued amount was more likely the selling price >>
It could've been sold for $25K and it wouldn't have mattered since the thief never intended to pay Rick's asking price. A dishonest purchase/sale doesn't confirm a valid sale price.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>If the coin was worth 5,000 why did the dealer only pay $1,000 to the thief
And if the coin was only worth $1,000, why did Rick charge $5,000?
I ask not to give Rick a hard time, but because I wonder what some of you guys might offer for the same coin. It's so easy to not think for yourself and just call the other guy a thief. >>
Rick didn't "charge" anything. It was never sold. The $5000 comes from what he said he values it at. That's very fair to understand that way and not to try to beat him up on valuing it at $5000 but saying it was worth $1000. Rick said it was WORTH $5000. What the thief sold it for and the dealer paid for it.
Also, PCGS Price Guide prices it at $3200 (without factoring potentials like CAC/Photoseal/top for the grade/etc). I didn't check auction results but PCGS Coinfacts show MS66 Red for over $1000 with auction results and MS67 Red for $6000-$10000+. So, it would seem to a simple guy like me that a MS66+ Red, particularly "blessed" with a photoseal/cac sticker, COULD easily be seen as worth closer to a MS67 price than the MS66 price.
But, what do I know? I'm only a guy who looked at some facts and numbers and not just trying to stir things up..... >>
Reread the 1st post ....Rick says he had a coin valued at $5,000 purchased with a stolen credit card.... it was in effect sold for what he valued it .. don't think ? ...since it was above the guide price his $ 5,000 valued amount was more likely the selling price >>
Touche.....he did sell it and I wrote it incorrectly and will edit my post to that effect.
That said, the rest of the post still stands.....just because the thief sold it to "....a dealer...." for $1000 doesn't mean that is the value of it. Maybe if it had been some honest dealings, I would concede that point, but a crook, who likely just wants to get SOME cash, will sell stolen goods for a lot less. Andy's post was, imho, still out of line...given the facts (coinfacts, auction prices realized listed in coinfacts, etc)
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>If the coin was worth 5,000 why did the dealer only pay $1,000 to the thief
And if the coin was only worth $1,000, why did Rick charge $5,000?
I ask not to give Rick a hard time, but because I wonder what some of you guys might offer for the same coin. It's so easy to not think for yourself and just call the other guy a thief. >>
Rick didn't "charge" anything. It was never sold. The $5000 comes from what he said he values it at. That's very fair to understand that way and not to try to beat him up on valuing it at $5000 but saying it was worth $1000. Rick said it was WORTH $5000. What the thief sold it for and the dealer paid for it.
Also, PCGS Price Guide prices it at $3200 (without factoring potentials like CAC/Photoseal/top for the grade/etc). I didn't check auction results but PCGS Coinfacts show MS66 Red for over $1000 with auction results and MS67 Red for $6000-$10000+. So, it would seem to a simple guy like me that a MS66+ Red, particularly "blessed" with a photoseal/cac sticker, COULD easily be seen as worth closer to a MS67 price than the MS66 price.
But, what do I know? I'm only a guy who looked at some facts and numbers and not just trying to stir things up..... >>
Reread the 1st post ....Rick says he had a coin valued at $5,000 purchased with a stolen credit card.... it was in effect sold for what he valued it .. don't think ? ...since it was above the guide price his $ 5,000 valued amount was more likely the selling price >>
Touche.....he did sell it and I wrote it incorrectly and will edit my post to that effect.
That said, the rest of the post still stands.....just because the thief sold it to "....a dealer...." for $1000 doesn't mean that is the value of it. Maybe if it had been some honest dealings, I would concede that point, but a crook, who likely just wants to get SOME cash, will sell stolen goods for a lot less. Andy's post was, imho, still out of line...given the facts (coinfacts, auction prices realized listed in coinfacts, etc) >>
Once again .... the buying dealer was looking to make a big score with low ball buy price.... the buying dealer at the time had no idea it was stolen....
You can pretty know the buying dealer knew the approx. value of the coin he was buying .... which brings back the point of dealer low ball buying
Today I visited a large dealer who in past couple of years had 5-6 employees working at the shop .. the glass cases would filled with coins waited to be sorted/ counted .. Today the store was empty ,only 2 employees working So ,now, there may be more motivation to get more money from customers
(1) Congratulations Rick. Glad to see you got your coin back and this had a good ending and props for rewarding the dealer who returned it. That was classy.
(2) This thread seemed to quickly turn into a bash the dealer who bought the coin and all other brick and mortar dealers. I started thinking, was the dealer really stealing the coin for $1,000? I know some in this thread called him a thief. What in fact was a fair price? $4,500? $3,500? Then I read MrEureka's post:
"I wonder what some of you guys might offer for the same coin. It's so easy to not think for yourself and just call the other guy a thief."
That got me thinking. I am not arguing about the value of $5,000 that Rick put on it. He has seen the coin, knows it's history and he know the market. If that is what he says it is worth then that is fine. But as MrEureka asks, what would you pay for the coin?
Not as a collector. But as a buyer who intends to re-sell the coin in a reasonable time and try to get your money back with some kind of profit. If someone offered you the coin right now and you had to make a cash offer that would not bury you in the coin, what would you pay?
Disregard the fact that Rick Snow says it is worth $5,000. You know that now but the dealer who bought it did not. And he had to make a quick decision to make an offer backed up by his own money. If I was him, I would look at the PCGS price guide. It says the coin in MS66+ Red is worth $3,200. Not knowing any better, I would think right away that that was high retail. I might then check Coin Values. They show the coin worth $1,500 in MS66 Red. They don't have a value for + grades. I don't believe the CDN grey sheet has values in MS66 so I wouldn't even check there.
The last resort would be a check of Heritage auctions. I did a quick check and found the following: 1909 Indian cents in MS66 sold for $690 up to $1,762, with the most recent sale at $1,058. I didn't see any with Eagle Eye Photo Seals, but there were some MS66+ Reds all with CAC stickers that sold for $2,820 to $3,055.
With just the information above, I would not want to offer much more than $1,000 the B&M dealer paid for it. My absolute ceiling would probably be $1,500. As bestday points out in the post above, things are very quiet in the coin market right now. That is not an excuse to cheat someone, but neither is it a time to be buried in inventory.
My thinking is that at $1,500 the most I would probably get at a show is maybe a $1,600 or $1,700. I am not going to drive or fly several hundred miles for that. If I could get it for $1,200 or $1,300. That would help. Or I could try to retail it myself. I could take it to some smaller shows or put it on eBay. I am not going to get huge offers for it there. I simply don't have the clientele that the big dealers have who will pay up for this coin. People I see just want "deals". I have bought other neat coins that I thought were deals only to sit on them for months. I would be very comfortable buying this coin for $1,000. At $1,500 or more, not so much.
I told you what I would pay for the coin, what would you?
No CAC, no PLUS, no Photo-Seal. But still, it makes a $1000 offer seem like something short of theft.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
It was very generous of you to recompensate the other dealer, as I'm pretty sure you technically didn't have to. Even a more modest reward would've been a nice gesture on your part.
Any leads on catching the criminal?
Continued success.
That is a very pitiful offer, 20% buy for the coin. Perhaps the dealer was testing the waters and mad a low-ball offer and the "seller" took it. This makes my local B&M offer look very enticing...I could do better on eBay, just about any day.
...and hopefully the purchaser took the sellers info for possible investigation/apprehension of the possessor of the coin, which may not necessarily be the credit card fraud person.
...and another thing, NEVER take the first offer!
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I wish more of these B&M stores had recording video camera's..
Not only to capture bad guys on film but for their own safety...
LM-ANA3242-CSNS308-MSNS226-ICTA
<< <i>It is a shame though, that the original buyer, the Visa bandit, got away scott free...
I wish more of these B&M stores had recording video camera's..
Not only to capture bad guys on film but for their own safety... >>
Are there dealers who don't ask for ID when buying a pricey coin ?
<< <i>
<< <i>It is a shame though, that the original buyer, the Visa bandit, got away scott free...
I wish more of these B&M stores had recording video camera's..
Not only to capture bad guys on film but for their own safety... >>
Are there dealers who don't ask for ID when buying a pricey coin ? >>
Coulda bin a fake ID with a real pic.
And I'm glad to see the coin was recovered!
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<< <i>It is a shame though, that the original buyer, the Visa bandit, got away scott free...
I wish more of these B&M stores had recording video camera's..
Not only to capture bad guys on film but for their own safety... >>
Credit card company could care less for the $1K, that is a big problem!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I had a credit card stolen out of my truck, they thief went to the local casino and took out 1K. I know this transaction HAS TO BE ON TAPE!!!!!!!!!!
The police, the casino, and the credit card company DID nothing as they could care less. They had a thief ON TAPE and didn't care.
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<< <i> I was told that I didn't have to compensate him. >>
So he was just going to give you a thousand bucks out of his own pocket? Nice guy.
As it's pretty wild that your own stolen coin that was shipped to Kansas/Nebraska was placed in your hand to tentatively purchase in California
<< <i>Well said, coinhack.
And I'm glad to see the coin was recovered!
+1
Tom
<< <i>
<< <i> I was told that I didn't have to compensate him. >>
So he was just going to give you a thousand bucks out of his own pocket? Nice guy. >>
If he buys stolen property that's his tough luck.
Having said that...I can only assume Rick knew the dealer offering him the piece... otherwise, I know that if I'm in this situation and a dealer I've never seen comes up to me with my stolen property, I immediately lock up the piece and contact show security and/or the authorities so they can sort it all out...for all I know the 'dealer' could be a fence for the crooks.
RIP Mom- 1932-2012
What everyone fails to understand is the long term relationship, personal satisfaction, possible return of coin to a favorite client who will be happy as heck to get this coin, etc, etc. Drop it folks. Your not in this dealers shoes to make the call on this one.
WS