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what is the most baseball Hof'ers to simultaneously play on one team?
lightningboy
Posts: 1,483 ✭✭✭
I can think of 2 teams that had 5 eventual Hof'ers playing together (snider, robinson, koufax, campanella and reese and Mays, mccovey, cepeda, marichal and perry). Have any teams had 6 or more?
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1994 Pro Line Live
TheDallasCowboyBackfieldProject
Babe Ruth
Lou Gehrig
Tony Lazzeri
Waite Hoyt
Herb Pennock
1994 Pro Line Live
TheDallasCowboyBackfieldProject
Campanella, Drysdale, Koufax, Reese, Robinson, Snider and Dick Williams
Cochrane, Cobb, Collins, Foxx, Grove, Simmons, Speaker
<< <i>I can think of 2 teams that had 5 eventual Hof'ers playing together (snider, robinson, koufax, campanella and reese and Mays, mccovey, cepeda, marichal and perry).
The 1982 Red Sox also had 5 (Boggs, Rice, Yaz, Perez, and Eck).
Jeter
Ichiro
ARod
Mariano Rivera
Andy Pettitte
C.C. Sabathia
<< <i>2013 NY Yankees:
Jeter
Ichiro
ARod
Mariano Rivera
Andy Pettitte
C.C. Sabathia >>
Until they are in they are future HOFers and not HOFers. That team has zero HOFers at the moment. Jeter, Rivera and Ichiro seem like locks or at least highly probable. Rodriguez based on numbers should go in, but neither Bonds nor Clemens is in yet so it depends entirely on how the myopic BB writers decide to vote on PED guys in the future. As for Sabathia and Pettitte, I think if their HOF candidacies were over/unders, I would take the under on both of them.
The 1961 Green Bay Packers had 11 HOFers players at the same time (Lombardi is HOFer #12, but he was not a "player"). In 1960, GP featured Willie Davis, Forrest Gregg, Paul Hornung, Henry Jordan, Ray Nitschke, Jim Ringo, Bart Starr, Jim Taylor, Emlen Tunnell, and Willie Wood (10). Then, with the 12th pick in the 1961 draft, Green Bay selected Herb Adderley, bringing the count to 11. After the season, Tunnell retired, leaving the ’62 Packers with 10 Hall of Famers. In 1963, Dave Robinson, a 2013 inductee, was added to the team, but Hornung was suspended. In ’64, Hornung was back, but Ringo was traded to Philadelphia. That kept the ’63 through ’66 Packers locked in at 10 Hall of Famers.
<< <i>2013 NY Yankees:
Jeter
Ichiro
ARod
Mariano Rivera
Andy Pettitte
C.C. Sabathia >>
Jeter, Rivera and probably Ichiro are the only HOFers from that list. A-rod may get in if the voters start inducting steroid users. Pettite and Sabathia are not HOFers in any case.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>
<< <i>2013 NY Yankees:
Jeter
Ichiro
ARod
Mariano Rivera
Andy Pettitte
C.C. Sabathia >>
Jeter, Rivera and probably Ichiro are the only HOFers from that list. A-rod may get in if the voters start inducting steroid users. Pettite and Sabathia are not HOFers in any case. >>
Probably Ichiro?! how is Ichiro not a lock?
any cinci reds fans chiming in from the 70s? cincyredlegs....they seemed loaded to me although I'm not sure how many actually got elected.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>2013 NY Yankees:
Jeter
Ichiro
ARod
Mariano Rivera
Andy Pettitte
C.C. Sabathia >>
Jeter, Rivera and probably Ichiro are the only HOFers from that list. A-rod may get in if the voters start inducting steroid users. Pettite and Sabathia are not HOFers in any case. >>
Probably Ichiro?! how is Ichiro not a lock? >>
He is overrated imo (career OPS+ of 108 which would be one of the lowest among HOFers, along with a career OBP% of .357 which is right below J.T. Snow all time) but he is very popular among fans and will very likely get in.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>He is overrated imo (career OPS+ of 108 which would be one of the lowest among HOFers, along with a career OBP% of .357 which is right below J.T. Snow all time) but he is very popular among fans and will very likely get in. >>
+1, a lot of it will depend how heavily popularity and his Japanese stats are weighed as part of his professional career. If based on his MLB stats alone, he's pretty iffy.
<< <i>
<< <i>He is overrated imo (career OPS+ of 108 which would be one of the lowest among HOFers, along with a career OBP% of .357 which is right below J.T. Snow all time) but he is very popular among fans and will very likely get in. >>
+1, a lot of it will depend how heavily popularity and his Japanese stats are weighed as part of his professional career. If based on his MLB stats alone, he's pretty iffy. >>
3000 hits is iffy?
Always looking for Topps Salesman Samples, pre '51 unopened packs, E90-2, E91a, N690 Kalamazoo Bats, and T204 Square Frame Ramly's
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>He is overrated imo (career OPS+ of 108 which would be one of the lowest among HOFers, along with a career OBP% of .357 which is right below J.T. Snow all time) but he is very popular among fans and will very likely get in. >>
+1, a lot of it will depend how heavily popularity and his Japanese stats are weighed as part of his professional career. If based on his MLB stats alone, he's pretty iffy. >>
3000 hits is iffy? >>
That is the magic number, of course (like wins for a pitcher, another misleading number), but some of the more revealing stats (OPS+, OBP%, SLG%, etc.) provide a more telling picture. I think he is borderline~I think his defense and basestealing are plusses, but really, if you take a look at a guy with a career OPS+ of 108, OBP% of .357 and a slugging % of .407, are you thinking slam dunk HOFer? (I'm not factoiring in the Japan stats.) Like I said, he is very popular, though, and I do think he will get in, based on that alone.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
ON ITS WAY TO NEWPORT BEACH, CA 92658
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>He is overrated imo (career OPS+ of 108 which would be one of the lowest among HOFers, along with a career OBP% of .357 which is right below J.T. Snow all time) but he is very popular among fans and will very likely get in. >>
+1, a lot of it will depend how heavily popularity and his Japanese stats are weighed as part of his professional career. If based on his MLB stats alone, he's pretty iffy. >>
3000 hits is iffy? >>
Over 4000 doesn't guarantee you get in
Baseball aside, my vote is for the 2002 Detroit Red Wings.
Shanahan
Fedorov
Hull
Lidstrom
Robitaille
Yzerman
Larionov
Chelios
Hasek
Scotty Bowman
and obviously an eventual slam dunk Datsyuk
I'm not sure any team in any sport can beat that.
<< <i>
<< <i>I can think of 2 teams that had 5 eventual Hof'ers playing together (snider, robinson, koufax, campanella and reese and Mays, mccovey, cepeda, marichal and perry).
The 1982 Red Sox also had 5 (Boggs, Rice, Yaz, Perez, and Eck). >>
Maybe even a 6th in a few years (Dwight Evans)
Ichiro's top 10 seasons OPS+
130
129
126
122
120
113
113
112
106
102
Raines top 10 seasons OPS+
151
149
145
138
138
135
132
129
124
124
Ichiro's BEST season would be ranked as Raines' 8th best, and Raines 10th best season would rank as Ichiro's 4th best.
OBP%
Ichiro
.414
.396
.388
.386
.381
.370
.361
.359
.352
.350
Raines
.429
.413
.413
.405
.403
.401
.395
.395
.393
.393
Only one of Ichiro's season OBP% (despite the high batting averages he attained during his peak years) would rank in Raines' top 6.
Even in the category of stolen bases, which is one of Ichiro's stronger assets, Ichiro has been caught stealing 114 times while totaling 498 career SBs, while Raines was caught stealing 146 times, but stole 808 career bases.
As a baseball fan, I would hope Raines gains his rightful place in Cooperstown before Ichiro does..unfortunately, though, Raines is not as popular nor does he have the fan base that Ichiro does.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
I had to look them up and double check - he had over 200 hits his first 10 seasons including totals of 262, 242, 238, 225. Wow!!!!
that makes a difference. All that aside I think Raines is a HOFer.
ON ITS WAY TO NEWPORT BEACH, CA 92658
<< <i>He is overrated imo (career OPS+ of 108 which would be one of the lowest among HOFers, along with a career OBP% of .357 which is right below J.T. Snow all time) but he is very popular among fans and will very likely get in. >>
Please tell me how Ichiro is overrated? Life time batting average .315, 10 seasons with 200 hits, he owns the single season hits record, 10 gold gloves. Look at Pete Rose who had (10) 200 hit seasons and played 24 seasons. (.375 / 118) OPS and OPS + not much higher then Ichiro (.357/109). Ichiro debut in MLB was at 27, just imagine if he started at 22. He might be the all time hit king. I guess overrated is about right.
<< <i>
<< <i>He is overrated imo (career OPS+ of 108 which would be one of the lowest among HOFers, along with a career OBP% of .357 which is right below J.T. Snow all time) but he is very popular among fans and will very likely get in. >>
Please tell me how Ichiro is overrated? Life time batting average .315, 10 seasons with 200 hits, he owns the single season hits record, 10 gold gloves. Look at Pete Rose who had (10) 200 hit seasons and played 24 seasons. (.375 / 118) OPS and OPS + not much higher then Ichiro (.357/109). Ichiro debut in MLB was at 27, just imagine if he started at 22. He might be the all time hit king. I guess overrated is about right. >>
Ichiro is NOT overrated. He is simply not a guy with a lot of extra base hits. As a lead off hitter he was one of the best. Also great defensively.
Raines should absolutely be in the Hall.
<< <i>Ichiro is NOT overrated. He is simply not a guy with a lot of extra base hits. As a lead off hitter he was one of the best. Also great defensively.
Raines should absolutely be in the Hall. >>
I think this is a case of Raines being horribly underrated
<< <i>
<< <i>He is overrated imo (career OPS+ of 108 which would be one of the lowest among HOFers, along with a career OBP% of .357 which is right below J.T. Snow all time) but he is very popular among fans and will very likely get in. >>
Please tell me how Ichiro is overrated? Life time batting average .315, 10 seasons with 200 hits, he owns the single season hits record, 10 gold gloves. Look at Pete Rose who had (10) 200 hit seasons and played 24 seasons. (.375 / 118) OPS and OPS + not much higher then Ichiro (.357/109). Ichiro debut in MLB was at 27, just imagine if he started at 22. He might be the all time hit king. I guess overrated is about right. >>
If you're going to assess a player's worth based solely on batting average and base hits without looking at the bigger picture, then you are correct. Ichiro was a great hitter; I'm not saying he was not, but you have to look past simple BA and base hits. Had he started in the majors at 22, instead of 27, things may have been different, but he did not and his stats in Japan should not be considered when determining whether he was a HOFer or not.
One of the best leadoff hitters? Well, his career OBP% is slightly better than J.T. Snow's and just a few points behind such luminaries as Bip Roberts and Lee Mazzilli. If you're not going to hit for power or extra base hits, then you better get on base at a higher rate than that to be considered an all time great.
I would agree that Raines is most certainly underrated.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Cobb
Speaker
Simmons
Cochrane
Foxx
Collins
Grove
Ruth-OF
Gehrig-1B
Lazzeri-2B
Combs-OF
Durocher-2B,SS
Dickey-C
Hoyt-P
Pennock-P
Coveleski-P
Huggins-Mgr
<< <i>If you're going to assess a player's worth based solely on batting average and base hits without looking at the bigger picture, then you are correct. Ichiro was a great hitter; I'm not saying he was not, but you have to look past simple BA and base hits. Had he started in the majors at 22, instead of 27, things may have been different, but he did not and his stats in Japan should not be considered when determining whether he was a HOFer or not.
One of the best leadoff hitters? Well, his career OBP% is slightly better than J.T. Snow's and just a few points behind such luminaries as Bip Roberts and Lee Mazzilli. If you're not going to hit for power or extra base hits, then you better get on base at a higher rate than that to be considered an all time great.
I would agree that Raines is most certainly underrated. >>
If you're going to assess a player's worth based solely on batting average and base hits without looking at the bigger picture, then you are correct.
The same should go for if you are going to criticize him. While Ichiro didn't walk very much, he rarely missed a game in his first 10 years, stole about 40 bases, scored 100 runs and played great defense with a fantastic arm, to go along with over 200 hits every year.
Bip Roberts and Lee Mazzilli..............really? While Roberts' and Mazzilli's OPS were only a little lower than Ichiro's, they were both part time players for most of their careers. Wow look at Mazzilli's final season, he should not have retired OPS+ was an amazing 145!!!!!
That is incorrect~Maz's OPS+ in his final season was 124, not 145, based on 163 at bats. But he also had over 4,100 at bats in his career, a fairly decent number by which to gauge the worth of a player. Bip Roberts also had over 4,000 career at bats. But to use players that are closer to Ichiro's career total at bats, we can use guys like Bobby Bonilla and Ken Griffey, Jr., both of whom also had higher career OBP% (and OPS+ career totals) than Ichiro, too.
And regarding all the base hits~when you consider that Ichiro also led and or was among the league leaders in at bats each season (primarily because he hardly ever walked, which is something else you'd want your leadoff hitter to do, as the objective is to get on base, isn't it?), the base hits don't have quite the same significance they do at first blush. After all, the more at bats you get, the more hits you should compile, correct?
As I stated before, I believe that Ichiro was a great hitter. But he is also overrated because of the base hits and the batting averages, which are imprssive in their own right, but as the stats I posted above will illustrate, there is more to complete player analysis than base hits and batting averages. Same applies for wins and losses for a pitcher~that is why a guy like Catfish Hunter got into the HOF despite a slightly above average career as a pitcher, while a guy like Bert Blyleven, who was CLEARLY a better pitcher had to wait years before the voters realized he was much better than his won-lost record would seem to indicate. Bottom line for Ichiro~a career OPS+ of 108 is a more revealing number than the 200-hit seasons, though I will agree that he gets a boost for his defensive play.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>1964 and 1965 Giants had 6 apiece >>
The five that the OP listed plus Snider (in '64) and Spahn (in '65.)
<< <i>Bip Roberts and Lee Mazzilli..............really? While Roberts' and Mazzilli's OPS were only a little lower than Ichiro's, they were both part time players for most of their careers. Wow look at Mazzilli's final season, he should not have retired OPS+ was an amazing 145!!!!!
That is incorrect~Maz's OPS+ in his final season was 124, not 145, based on 163 at bats. But he also had over 4,100 at bats in his career, a fairly decent number by which to gauge the worth of a player. Bip Roberts also had over 4,000 career at bats. But to use players that are closer to Ichiro's career total at bats, we can use guys like Bobby Bonilla and Ken Griffey, Jr., both of whom also had higher career OBP% (and OPS+ career totals) than Ichiro, too.
And regarding all the base hits~when you consider that Ichiro also led and or was among the league leaders in at bats each season (primarily because he hardly ever walked, which is something else you'd want your leadoff hitter to do, as the objective is to get on base, isn't it?), the base hits don't have quite the same significance they do at first blush. After all, the more at bats you get, the more hits you should compile, correct?
As I stated before, I believe that Ichiro was a great hitter. But he is also overrated because of the base hits and the batting averages, which are imprssive in their own right, but as the stats I posted above will illustrate, there is more to complete player analysis than base hits and batting averages. Same applies for wins and losses for a pitcher~that is why a guy like Catfish Hunter got into the HOF despite a slightly above average career as a pitcher, while a guy like Bert Blyleven, who was CLEARLY a better pitcher had to wait years before the voters realized he was much better than his won-lost record would seem to indicate. Bottom line for Ichiro~a career OPS+ of 108 is a more revealing number than the 200-hit seasons, though I will agree that he gets a boost for his defensive play. >>
According to Baseball Reference Mazzilli's OPS in 1989 was 145. http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/m/mazzile01.shtml Just another reason OPS+ is at times very misleading (in a word, wrong).
My objection is comparing players to other players who are completely different. The four you bring up are bad comparisons to Ichiro. Two are part timers and two are middle of the order sluggers.
Pete Rose and Rod Carew are both much better players to compare with Ichiro. One could certainly assume that IF Ichiro had played in the MLB from his early 20's on, he MIGHT have challenged Rose for the all time hit crown. We will never know.
Carew had a very similar career numbers wise, Rod was a little better hitter and while one played outfield and the other 2nd base, their 162 game averages in hits and extra base hits are very close. Ichiro stole more bases at a much better % and was a superior defensive player. Carew was NOT a great 2nd baseman and was moved to 1st base for the second half of his career, and loses some value to me.
I certainly do NOT like the 23 point difference in OPS+ between them, but I am never going to like OPS+. Both players had almost exactly the same number of total bases. Yes I see that Ichiro had 34 more at bats per year while averaging only three more hits. 26 walks a year shouldn't change the numbers THAT much, especially when they both averaged exactly the same number of runs scored. Carew missed a lot of games each year, partially because he was in the military reserve. Rod does have quite a few batting titles, so I'll agree he was a more "dominant" player. I would rate the two about equal as ballplayers.
We do basically agree that Ichiro was a great singles hitter, but needed to have a better OB% to be considered one of the best lead off batters of all time. He is a first ballot HOFer in my mind. I am sure he is over rated by some and under rated by others, but I would not label him as an overrated ballplayer.
<< <i>Carew had a very similar career numbers wise, Rod was a little better hitter ... >>
Jesus, Mary and Joseph, tell me you did not say that!
When you say that you don't "like" OPS+, what you're saying is that you don't "like" that hitters don't all hit in identical circumstances. Well, get over it. Different hitters hit in different circumstances. Grote already laid out the year-by-year proof that Raines was a much better hitter than Ichiro; the same analysis shows Carew was a much better hitter than Raines. Carew was a much, much better hitter than Ichiro.
But as massive as the difference is in OPS+, where it really shows through is in WPA (Win Probablity Added - a measure of how a hitter performed given the situation he faced (runners on, RISP, # of outs, etc.).
Carew's top 10 WPA seasons:
6.6
5.1
4.8
4.1
3.3
3.1
2.7
2.6
2.4
2.3
Career total 45.2
Ichiro's top 10 seasons (* plus mystery player):
3.7 (3.9)
3.7 (3.7)
3.2 (3.7)
2.0 (3.6)
1.7 (3.1)
1.6 (2.8)
1.1 (2.7)
1.0 (2.0)
0.8 (1.7)
0.2 (1.7)
Career total: 11.5 (29.8)
Note that Ichiro's career total is less than the sum of his high four seasons. This is because he has been a below-average player (WPA < 0) every year since 2011.
A sample of player's with career WPA greater than Ichiro's:
Bernie Carbo
Dave Kingman
Larry Hisle
Cesar Tovar
Chris Chambliss
Sixto Lezcano
A sample of players with WPA more than triple Ichiro's:
Rod Carew
Orlando Cepeda
Rusty Staub
Reggie Smith
A sample of players with WPA more than four times Ichiro's
Tim Raines
Dick Allen
Lance Berkman
Bobby Abreu
Ichiro is the most overrated hitter not just of my lifetime but in the history of baseball. His primary "skill" is avoiding injury, allowing him to come to the plate an enormous number of times and beat out a great number of weak infield singles that don't advance runners more than a single base.
Yeah, he'll probably make the HOF if some team allows him to continue to pollute their lineup long enough to get 3,000 hits. And he and Jim Rice can toast to all the stupid sportswriters who don't have a clue how to tell great players from mediocre players.
* I haven't mentioned the mystery player for a long, long time. He beats Ichiro down the line every season at WPA and at OPS+, he beats him at career total for both, and he played for 21 years, as a full-time player for as many seasons as Ichiro. He was slow, and didn't field particularly well, and I'll acknowledge that Ichiro was a better all-around baseball player. But Mystery Man was a better hitter, as were hundreds of others. It's not Gene Tenace (he's a better baseball player, not just a better hitter, than Ichiro), that's the last hint you get.
<< <i> Carew was a much, much better hitter than Ichiro. >>
No he wasn't. You can use all your made up stats you want. I'll go so far as to say Carew was a better hitter, but not by much, and Ichiro was a better base stealer and defensive player and overall MORE valuable to his team.
I am not going to get into a never ending debate with you. I saw Carew's entire career and have looked at his statistics, he was a slap hitter like Ichiro, missed a lot of time and was quite the problem child as well.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>According to Baseball Reference Mazzilli's OPS in 1989 was 145. http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/m/mazzile01.shtml Just another reason OPS+ is at times very misleading (in a word, wrong).
>>
Look closer. He played on 2 teams in 1989, and his overall OPS+ was 124.
<< <i>
<< <i>According to Baseball Reference Mazzilli's OPS in 1989 was 145. http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/m/mazzile01.shtml Just another reason OPS+ is at times very misleading (in a word, wrong).
>>
Look closer. He played on 2 teams in 1989, and his overall OPS+ was 124. >>
You guys just don't get it, in his last 66 at bats your "made up stat" claims he was a superstar. He hit a whopping .227 and OPS+ (145) says he was awesome. He gets 4 more hits in 6 more at bats than his 60 at bats with the Mets the same year and he goes from an average player (101) to a HOFer?
WAR and OPS+ are great ideas to try to do things that just cannot be done.
grote15 I must have seen Rod "bloop" 500 of his singles just over the shortstops head but your statistics make them look like line drives. Trying to compare players of different eras is foolish and giving Carew a bunch of credit because there weren't as many good hitters for average during his playing days is an assumption. Just because you can prove the math doesn't mean it proves the theory.
Of course (as usual) most of my points are ignored and one single statistic gets focused on, or another one gets brought up to avoid the issue.
Carew's OPS+ is exactly the same as Tony Oliva's. Oliva was a MUCH better hitter than Carew. I am sure my powers of observation will be once more called into question. Seems to me that a guy that hits line drives and home runs is a better hitter than a guy who is a great blooper and bunter, but that's just me.
Don't be a slave to numbers! Objective observation is not ALWAYS incorrect, in fact it's always BETTER than bad statistics.
Twins had a few HOFers in 1971; Killebrew, Carew, Blyleven and a couple that come close; Oliva (I hope he gets in) and Kaat (who I don't think will).
However, as any statistician or informed sports fan will attest, you need a much greater sample size than 60 at bats to make an argument. That is also the reason why players who are remembered as "clutch" in the playoffs, or a bum in the playoffs, will sooner or later, given enough opportunities, revert to their career means. There's no secret behind why. Once again, the numbers don't lie.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>According to Baseball Reference Mazzilli's OPS in 1989 was 145. http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/m/mazzile01.shtml Just another reason OPS+ is at times very misleading (in a word, wrong).
>>
Look closer. He played on 2 teams in 1989, and his overall OPS+ was 124. >>
You guys just don't get it, in his last 66 at bats your "made up stat" claims he was a superstar. He hit a whopping .227 and OPS+ (145) says he was awesome. He gets 4 more hits in 6 more at bats than his 60 at bats with the Mets the same year and he goes from an average player (101) to a HOFer? >>
All I did was point out your error.
Who said Mazzilli was a superstar or a HOFer? I don't even see where anyone said ANYTHING good about Mazzili in this entire thread.
Grote said "...his career OBP% is slightly better than J.T. Snow's and just a few points behind such luminaries as Bip Roberts and Lee Mazzilli."
Grote was essentially saying that Ichiro wasn't even better than an average player like Lee Mazzilli when it came to OBP%.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>According to Baseball Reference Mazzilli's OPS in 1989 was 145. http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/m/mazzile01.shtml Just another reason OPS+ is at times very misleading (in a word, wrong).
>>
Look closer. He played on 2 teams in 1989, and his overall OPS+ was 124. >>
You guys just don't get it, in his last 66 at bats our "made up stat" claims he was a superstar. He hit a whopping .227 and OPS+ (145) says he was awesome. He gets 4 more hits in 6 more at bats than his 60 at bats with the Mets the same year and he goes from an average player (101) to a HOFer? >>
All I did was point out your error.
Who said Mazzilli was a superstar or a HOFer? I don't even see where anyone said ANYTHING good about Mazzili in this entire thread.
Grote said "...his career OBP% is slightly better than J.T. Snow's and just a few points behind such luminaries as Bip Roberts and Lee Mazzilli."
Grote was essentially saying that Ichiro wasn't even better than an average player like Lee Mazzilli when it came to OBP%. >>
Yes, I see what you did. I saw what he wrote. You just didn't see what I did.
A player with a 145+ OPS is a HOFer! I am trying to point out that any statistic that awards him any number that high has to be looked at with suspicion.
The "stat guys" love to point out numbers and say they prove something, in this case, while the OB% numbers are close, so what? Two completely different players with completely different careers. Proves nothing. If you are basing comparisons like this, you aren't going to "prove" anything, just wasting our valuable (LOL) time.
Grote compared Mazilli to Ichiro to prove the point that Ichiro is over rated. It was also said, I think by him, that one should not look at only 1 stat in comparing players. I then replied, possibly with a bit of sarcasm, about Mazzilli having a 145 OPS+ during PART of his final year. The two players shouldn't be compared to raise or lower either one's rating. One is going into the Hall, the other was a part time player. To get a good comparison between two players they should be similar types of players and even better if they played in the same or similar eras. You can't just pick and choose (PART of a year, for example) a number and say "see this guy is just as good".
As I said, comparing Ichiro to Carew would have been a better (but not perfect) comparison. Other than playing at different positions (advantage Ichiro) and eras (advantage Carew?) their basic numbers are extremely close right down the line. Of course my point(s) was/were ignored, and another debate ensued regarding my opinion over which player was a MUCH better hitter. Looking at the 162 game averages, neither player was MUCH better of a hitter. I conceded that Carew was better, and certainly more dominant than Ichiro, but that wasn't good enough.
The basic numbers do not lie, the new ones are at times very, very bad. Whenever you eliminate ANY information, including observation (not always biased), you are not getting all the evidence. I only use my observations when discussing players I have seen hundreds if not thousands of times. Killebrew, Carew and Oliva would be three I know well, I wouldn't bring up the fact unless this was the case. I did not see as much of Ichiro, but 200 hits every year for 10 straight years is nothing to sneeze at.
Has any other player done it?
I enjoy a good debate, it just gets tiring when comparisons are brought up that have little or no merit.
Good night!
That statement I will agree with you on, Joe, LOL..
Also, for the record, not that it really matters, you never said that Mazzilli's OPS+ of 145 was for PART of his final season. This is what you actually said:
Wow look at Mazzilli's final season, he should not have retired OPS+ was an amazing 145!!!!!
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<< <i>A slave to numbers? Geez, the entire institution of baseball, more than any other sport, is based on numbers. You may disagree with the reality they represent, but as the old saying goes, the numbers don't lie, no matter how much you want to discount them. >>
OPS+ and WAR are different in that they bring in other players to attempt to make comparisons, sometimes it works, other times it doesn't add up. When discussing Larry Walker, his OPS+ numbers were said to be "too high". How can that be? The numbers (even after reducing them because of Coors Field) are still well above what it should take to get in the Hall. Do the numbers lie in Larry's case? Obviously he's not in, but don't the numbers say he MUST be good enough?
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However, as any statistician or informed sports fan will attest, you need a much greater sample size than 60 at bats to make an argument. That is also the reason why players who are remembered as "clutch" in the playoffs, or a bum in the playoffs, will sooner or later, given enough opportunities, revert to their career means. There's no secret behind why. Once again, the numbers don't lie. >>
My point EXACTLY! If 60 at bats is too small a sample size, then using two players that aren't similar also gives you bad information. I am not talking about "clutch" in the playoff stuff. Some people can observe and evaluate players objectively over a reasonable period of time, while also using statistical information. Four bunt singles are the same as four line drive singles in the scorebook, but they are not the same when evaluating the ability of a batter. Are you saying an "informed sports fan" can't use what he sees in order to evaluate players? In this case, only the "stat guys" who don't even watch games are entitled to an opinion.
Regarding your playoff comment, players don't always get enough opportunities. So if they happen to be good, they are considered "clutch" if they have a bad run, they might never get the chance to raise their numbers and they are labeled "bums", so in fact they are from the numbers they achieved when they had the opportunity.
<< <i>I enjoy a good debate, it just gets tiring when comparisons are brought up that have little or no merit.
That statement I will agree with you on, Joe, LOL..
Also, for the record, not that it really matters, you never said that Mazzilli's OPS+ of 145 was for PART of his final season. This is what you actually said:
Wow look at Mazzilli's final season, he should not have retired OPS+ was an amazing 145!!!!! >>
Yes, that is what I said. We'll agree to agree!!
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Why do you think 145 is too high for Mazzilli in that partial season? He had 66 ABs and hit 4 HRs and had 11 RBIs. At that rate, it would be 40 HRs and 110 RBI over 660 AB. Yes, his BA was .227, however, his OPS was .850 compared to the MLB average of .695. Not bad right?
<< <i>I did not see as much of Ichiro, but 200 hits every year for 10 straight years is nothing to sneeze at.
Has any other player done it?
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I don't think much of 200-hit seasons since they are mostly accomplished by hitters that don't walk much. Ted Williams never had more than 194 hits in a season, and he is rightfully known as one of the best hitters ever.