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Holder Weights and Etc.
TigersFan2
Posts: 1,442 ✭✭
One thing I do is weigh my PCGS holders with the coins in them. Since an uncirculated Morgan or Peace Dollar weighs 26.73 grams, I can then figure out the weight of the holder. Then based on the type of PCGS holder, I can know how much a holder with a Morgan or Peace Dollar should weigh. (I don't have enough PCGS holders with other denominations of coins to figure out how much each of those holders should weigh.)
Anyway, I do this as a sort of sanity check when I receive a PCGS coin I've purchased on Ebay. It's one of several ways I determine if something is amiss.
Question #1: Is there a source anywhere on the internet that catalogs the PCGS holder types and their weights for different denominations?
Question #2: Is it possible for someone to open a PCGS holder in a way that causes it no damage in order to remove the genuine coin and replace it with a counterfeit coin? I'm interested of the risk of finding a real PCGS holder with a counterfeit coin. (It would have to be a top-quality counterfeit because basic inspection of the coin should find it not right.)
I've attempted to find the answers to each of these questions at various times on the internet and come up empty. Webpages that show different PCGS holders tend to only show the earlier holders and don't provide weights. And everything I've found on opening a PCGS holder seems to break it pretty good so perhaps that answers my second question.
With the measurements of my PCGS Morgan and Peace Dollars, I've categorized the holders in 4 types (generally the more modern PCGS holders)...
Type 1: Solid Blue-Grey label with full rectangular hologram on reverse = 28.7 grams
Type 2: Newer Blue/White label with full rectangular hologram on reverse = 28.3 grams
Type 3: Newer Blue/White label with small square hologram on reverse = 31.6 grams or 28.2 grams
Type 4 (Current): Newer Blue/White label with strip hologram on reverse = 25.8 grams
There are likely subsets of holder types within the 4 types I identified. It appears what I call "Type 3" has 2 different types. I've also accounted that a coin in G or VG condition can weigh as much as a gram less than a coin in MS due to wear.
Anyway, I do this as a sort of sanity check when I receive a PCGS coin I've purchased on Ebay. It's one of several ways I determine if something is amiss.
Question #1: Is there a source anywhere on the internet that catalogs the PCGS holder types and their weights for different denominations?
Question #2: Is it possible for someone to open a PCGS holder in a way that causes it no damage in order to remove the genuine coin and replace it with a counterfeit coin? I'm interested of the risk of finding a real PCGS holder with a counterfeit coin. (It would have to be a top-quality counterfeit because basic inspection of the coin should find it not right.)
I've attempted to find the answers to each of these questions at various times on the internet and come up empty. Webpages that show different PCGS holders tend to only show the earlier holders and don't provide weights. And everything I've found on opening a PCGS holder seems to break it pretty good so perhaps that answers my second question.
With the measurements of my PCGS Morgan and Peace Dollars, I've categorized the holders in 4 types (generally the more modern PCGS holders)...
Type 1: Solid Blue-Grey label with full rectangular hologram on reverse = 28.7 grams
Type 2: Newer Blue/White label with full rectangular hologram on reverse = 28.3 grams
Type 3: Newer Blue/White label with small square hologram on reverse = 31.6 grams or 28.2 grams
Type 4 (Current): Newer Blue/White label with strip hologram on reverse = 25.8 grams
There are likely subsets of holder types within the 4 types I identified. It appears what I call "Type 3" has 2 different types. I've also accounted that a coin in G or VG condition can weigh as much as a gram less than a coin in MS due to wear.
I love the 3 P's: PB&J, PBR and PCGS.
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Comments
jim
You should rely on your experience, who you purchased the coin from, how the slab looks (and lookup of the cert #) and what the actual coin looks like. If you think you own a counterfeit slab, you should send PCGS CS an email with a picture of the slab in question. PCGS has taken some good measures to help potential purchasers verify that (the QR code that can be scanned, changing holograms, tamper-resistant slabs etc) their coins are genuine PCGS certified coins.
One additional measure our hosts could integrate into their process is to do what our friends across the street do: take a decent picture of the coin/slab you can view when you look up the cert #. It is nearly impossible and not economical for a counterfeiter to try to copy any toning/condition of the actual coin...but I know that takes time/money and more effort on their part.
I would think that PCGS keeps the weights, materials used/under wraps so counterfeiters can't mimic those weights when created, so I am not surprised that they do not publish diagnostics like that.
I was thinking about it more. In my attempt to classify holders/labels/holograms in to those 4 types, I've probably simplified the changes. Changes to the label, the holder and the hologram have probably occurred at different times. For example, a subtle change to the holder could have been made but no change to the label & hologram.
Been thinking more about the motives behind if someone could get a holder open and switch a coin. It seems very unlikely that a person would want to switch a genuine coin with a counterfeit coin (thus probable different overall holder/coin weight) because unless the buyer was just too trusting with zero experience, it would be too easy to fool someone with the counterfeit coin. It seems the likely scenario would be to replace a genuine coin with another genuine coin with a slightly lower grade. The weight of the holder/coin would remain the same but the financial incentive to do the fraud would be there.
Get the eyeballs sharp they usually make something off.
Add that info to your detection knowledge.
<< <i>Thanks for those 2 excellent responses.
I was thinking about it more. In my attempt to classify holders/labels/holograms in to those 4 types, I've probably simplified the changes. Changes to the label, the holder and the hologram have probably occurred at different times. For example, a subtle change to the holder could have been made but no change to the label & hologram.
Been thinking more about the motives behind if someone could get a holder open and switch a coin. It seems very unlikely that a person would want to switch a genuine coin with a counterfeit coin (thus probable different overall holder/coin weight) because unless the buyer was just too trusting with zero experience, it would be too easy to fool someone with the counterfeit coin. It seems the likely scenario would be to replace a genuine coin with another genuine coin with a slightly lower grade. The weight of the holder/coin would remain the same but the financial incentive to do the fraud would be there. >>
Once in a great while a slab that hasn't been properly sealed will get out, and this is likely the only possibility of getting a slab where the coin could be switched. Generally, I think it's pretty hard to tamper with a sealed slab without leaving evidence.
<< <i>I would think that PCGS keeps the weights, materials used/under wraps so counterfeiters can't mimic those weights when created, so I am not surprised that they do not publish diagnostics like that. >>
It's very easy to "mimic" the weights of the various holders. All that needs to be done is take a sampling of the holders and with some entry-level statistics, one can estimate with reasonable confidence the weight variation. In addition, somehow I don't think the final weights of the holders are kept within a strict range as part of a TPG's quality control. I am sure the variability is much greater than with the US Mint products entombed.
Now the materials and manufacturing processes ... oh yeah, I bet those are a closely kept secret.
See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
<< <i>It's very easy to "mimic" the weights of the various holders. All that needs to be done is take a sampling of the holders and with some entry-level statistics, one can estimate with reasonable confidence the weight variation. In addition, somehow I don't think the final weights of the holders are kept within a strict range as part of a TPG's quality control. I am sure the variability is much greater than with the US Mint products entombed.
Now the materials and manufacturing processes ... oh yeah, I bet those are a closely kept secret. >>
Over the past year, I've tried looking online for what the details are for identifying a fake holder and such. I came to the conclusion that the PCGS position is to keep the diagnostic details of real holders as confidential as possible so the information isn't out there for the counterfeiters in China who manufacture fake holders. I believe that there are fine details of a PCGS holder such that even the best fake would go easily detected by a trained PCGS employee.
Yes, if a fake holder with a counterfeit coin is being produced, it would be easy to make up the 3-4 grams lost of the wrong metal coin with a little more weight in the holder somewhere. But I think it ultimately comes down to knowing enough to identify a counterfeit coin.