<< <i>"Washington Quarters LOL - worst thing one can invest in IMO."
Unfortunately, not even remotely close to the "worst". If you only knew about the classics and/or moderns that make those quarters look like OK buys by comparison!
Wondercoin >>
Nice try but you will need to sell that to somebody else. Except for 32D and 32S - Don't care for Wash 25c.
Cougar. Sell what? I generally don't sell Washington quarters - I collect them (while selling a double from time to time). And, I can tell you without a doubt, I have other coins I also collect that have dropped in price far, far, more than silver Washington quarters over the past few years.
And, the fact that you don't care for Wash quarters is no problem. It was your premise I commented on, which I believe is flat out wrong.
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
Here is another one (not 32d or s) that has gone from around $6,000 in value a dozen or so years ago to a last trade at $40,000. Not a horrible performance.
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
<< <i>I strongly agree with op. Coin market seems in tank. Coin Club members have been blowing out some coins starting at 99c and 9.95 on ebay (it is almost impossible get retail there) and many US vintage coins bringing lower than what they purchased them for say 6 mo to 1.5 yr ago. Sometimes as low as 50% of original purchase price. Occasionally they will sell for more but not very often.
The CDN graphs also illustrate this by far. The CCDN Coin Market Index for May 1 2015 is 985.91 vs 1000 for Jan 1990 baseline. Adjusted for inflation this is dismal for coin market. Look at losses people are taking on HOF Dollars. The CDN Quarterly I for April 2015 shows horrible losses on type dimes (Barber and Lib Seated w legend) in MS63 and MS65.
I have a number of US and World vintage coins I have blown out recently starting at 9.95 - horrible losses on most compared to what they were purchased for months ago. 36% on HOF Dollar PCGS 69, 22% on NGC 63 1884 Morgan Dollar, 50 % loss on civil war PCGS graded XF 45 Indian Cent, 9% gain on 1892 NGC 64 half. a 58% loss on 1918f on graded German Mark piece. 40% loss on 1949-S 10c PCGS 66. On six coins I blew out I got $365 against $445 cost, about 18% loss. Now I have retailed coins for 50-200% more on the Bay but these are few and far between.
I think I will stick to graded bullion coins from here on out coupled with a high cash vs inventory position. No more being a collector at heart for me, tired of all the red ink. It is really hard for the most part to make money with USM stuff bc they almost always go down in aftermarket unless some huge bullion uptick.
As far as those touting the big ticket coins only the wealthy can afford: hey put your money where your mouth is and start one on ebay in a real auction at 9.95 and c how it ends up. the proof is in the pudding......sure I read the success stories in the CDN but there are losers too.
Washington Quarters LOL - worst thing one can invest in IMO.
Sellers are taking a blood bath - unless you buy it right - buy low / sell high taking tables at shows good luck. The problem is there is hardly anyone walking in the door with anything to sell / buy right. Plus the show expenses will eat into or eliminate your profit bc of many big dealers w big inventories doing wholesale (probably to make ends meet). It seems like the people going to shows have less money to spend - Central States Horrible for many dealers.
Now I do believe this may be a good time to get some good deals vs price guides but will you make any money? >>
You are often going to lose if you sell six to fifteen months after buying even in an upmarket
You are going to get hurt buying price
You are going to get hurt buying widgets and then selling them into this market
Why would anybody want to put big ticket coins on Ebay starting at $9.95?
Generally when you buy low you sell lower. That is exactly the worst part of the market
Graded bullion coins as the answer? Good luck. Hope it's the ticket for you
Mark
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
The premise of this thread is ridiculous, obviously some coins go up or down in value, and pop tops are especially vulnerable to being one-upped. On the plus side, it seems to have turned into a showcase for beautifully toned Washington quarters. In that case, here is my favorite!
And in case anyone is prejudiced against the new stuff, here's a really modern one:
<< <i>MS67 and MS68 Washington quarters generally peaked in price in the 2006-2008 period. Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe they have generally slid down in price since then....along with much of the US coin market. Typical market cycling. The MS67's may have never been worth that $4500. Did any trade at that level. ... >>
Yes, 4 traded at that level, from 2004-2011, and 4 more traded between $3000-4000 in 2012-3/2013 before results dropped below $2000.
Here are the recorded Auction Prices Realized for PCGS MS67 1964 (P) 25c, sorted by date: 11/1/2003 $3,335 1/1/2004 $7,188 (population 4 PCGS MS67 at this time) 1/1/2007 $6,325 12/1/2008 $5,750 1/1/2011 $5,290 4/1/2012 $3,738 (population 8 PCGS MS67 at this time) 4/1/2012 $3,450 11/1/2012 $3,672 CAC 1/1/2013 $2,585 CAC 3/1/2013 $3,819 8/1/2013 $2,006 (population 10 PCGS MS67 and 1 PCGS MS67+ at this time) 11/1/2013 $1,763 12/1/2013 $1,462 2/1/2014 $1,528 2/1/2014 $1,116 3/1/2014 $1,293 (population 13 PCGS MS67 and 0? PCGS MS67+ at this time) 6/1/2014 $1,175 9/1/2014 $700 9/1/2014 $499 1/1/2015 $1,058 1/1/2015 $1,026 (population 15 PCGS MS67 and 0? PCGS MS67+ at this time) 5/2015 $? (population 17 PCGS MS67 and 2 PCGS MS67+ now) http://www.pcgs.com/auctionprices/details.aspx?r=5876&v=&dv=1964&pf=ms&c=112&g=0
We might be seeing that only a few people wanted them for registry sets, and then nobody else wanted to pay at that level.
Or simply the expanding population of PCGS MS67.
I ignored the NGC MS67 results - it looked like they never traded above $1000 since one did in 2003. Five NGC MS67* and NGC MS67+ have traded slightly above $1000 (one made it to $1725 in 2012).
And as Rick mentioned, there is also an effect of overgraded coins appearing more frequently in auctions. I checked the certificate numbers. Of the 21 sales, 17 had observable cert numbers, and only one cert appeared twice (2/14 and 3/14). However, I'd say the most dramatic toner is the one which sold for $6325. (Though I'm no expert).
I am not sure if + grades were a factor - I don't see any PCGS MS67+ in the auction results, and only one MS66+ there. But the existence of an MS67+ was noted during the drop below $2000.
I agree with others that we shouldn't judge returns on the entire range of coins based on condition rarity for one particular date/mintmark. And I agree that there are better monetary investments than coins (if you do not count the enjoyment factor).
<< <i>A. Grading has always been subjective. B. Markets go up and down. C. Those who are ignorant of the realities of the current market may find pleasant or unpleasant surprises. D. If investing is the goal, there are better options. E. Not all segments of the market move in the same direction at the same time. F. Playing around with common coins at uncommon prices (condition rarities) can be fickle. >>
I pick F.
Some refer to overgraded slabs as Coffins. I like to think of them as Happy Coins.
This is an interesting thread for me, being the darksider slash occasional purveyor of liteside that I am. I see the commenters generally divided into two groups ... bear with me ...
Apples: You collect coins for beauty, pleasure, coolness, sentimentality, etc. You have no plans to sell, and are buying the best most awesome material your money can buy (in your opinion).
Oranges: You buy coins (and NCLT, bullion, etc.) solely with the intention of reselling for profit. And thus, you are also buying the "best," most awesome material your money can buy. You may appreciate its beauty, but that's just the silver lining. You really only care about the profit and growth potential.
Some folks fall into both categories. In fact, most of us have bought both apples and oranges numerous times. But threads like this reveal in which category we really belong. Personally, I believe if even 10% of your buying is "apples" then you are essentially an apple at heart. Your 10% is your collection and the rest is just investment. And if you are going to invest, you might as well invest in bullion or stock certificates. Complaining about the investment potential of non-rare coins just doesn't make sense.
That's very troubling to hear about the CAC issue. I had no idea that many people will reject a coin unless it has a CAC sticker. Most of my coins are PCGS and NGC. I'm not spending more money to get the stickers. You have to draw the line somewhere.
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
the very dynamic that an MS66 of something is worth $32 and an MS67 is worth $1000 should be an indicator that a long overdue price correction has taken place, and probably hasn't bottomed out yet
regardless of how many posts I have, I don't consider myself an "expert" at anything
ebayer ... What does the dynamic that a 1909(svdb) cent in MS66RD is worth $10,000 and an MS67RD $100,000 tell you? Myriad more examples all over the classic coin series as well.
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
Mitch I love that coin. I would value it more in the $5,000 range though but just flat out gorgeous.
People don't understand condition rarity until they try and slab a coin in pcgs ms 67. You can't just make blanket statements based upon how old the coin is.
Mitch, do you remember when you offered $1,000/coin on the boards to anyone who could slab multiple pcgs ms 67 and everyone thought it would be easy and not a single coin turned up of course.
I thought coins were a lousy investment last year, so I dropped a decent chunk of money into a relatively safe, large-cap, domestic mutual fund. It dropped 5% within 3 days of purchase and hasn't broken even yet one year later.
Now why exactly should I stop buying coins when I've been at it for 30 years? Just avoid the overvalued material, don't buy at screaming high retail, and chill.
"Mitch, do you remember when you offered $1,000/coin on the boards to anyone who could slab multiple pcgs ms 67 and everyone thought it would be easy and not a single coin turned up of course."
Yes, I do. And, even better. At one of the early PCGS "Invitationals" (when they were held in Newport Beach, CA before Vegas), I was sitting with a full table of classic coin dealers and the topic of modern coins came in (and how easy they were to slab in top grades). To make a long story shot, I offered $1,000/coin for the production of some specific clad quarters in PCGS-MS67 with a max. of (5) that I would payout at the next Invitational held the following month. One of the coin dealers literally left the dinner and went directly to his shop at 10:00 p.m. to start to work on making the easiest $5,000 he thought he would ever make! One month later, you can guess what I ended up paying out to the group. One "world class" classic coin upgrader was getting back MS64RD Lincolns when he tried his hand at high grade Memorial Cents at that time! LOL.
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
Here is the former Pop 1/0 MS68 coin that was pop 1 for years and years and years (ex: me, Craig, David and me again). The next photo (in my next post) is the MS68 coin PCGS recently graded that knocked my coin out of pop 1/0 status to pop 2/0. I have lost 7 or 8 different pop 1/0 coins in my set to coins like this in the past year. But, I also have not submitted a coin for upgrade from my quarter set in the past roughly 12-18 months. So, I would fully expect some upgrades when PCGS see my coins again at some point in the future. Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
<< <i>The CDN graphs also illustrate this by far. The CCDN Coin Market Index for May 1 2015 is 985.91 vs 1000 for Jan 1990 baseline. Adjusted for inflation this is dismal for coin market. Look at losses people are taking on HOF Dollars. The CDN Quarterly I for April 2015 shows horrible losses on type dimes (Barber and Lib Seated w legend) in MS63 and MS65. >>
The fact that you are using the CDN Coin Market Index, or even greysheet in general, is your first and biggest mistake. The CDN isn't worth the paper it is printed on. They don't even update anything but the most common Morgan Dollars. If anything the CDN is driving prices down regardless of the market. JMHO.
<< <i>Here is the former Pop 1/0 MS68 coin that was pop 1 for years and years and years (ex: me, Craig, David and me again). The next photo (in my next post) is the MS68 coin PCGS recently graded that knocked my coin out of pop 1/0 status to pop 2/0. I have lost 7 or 8 different pop 1/0 coins in my set to coins like this in the past year. But, I also have not submitted a coin for upgrade from my quarter set in the past roughly 12-18 months. So, I would fully expect some upgrades when PCGS see my coins again at some point in the future. Wondercoin
>>
I would take this MS 68 over the newly made MS 68 coin any day.
<< <i>I know of several people who have lost a bunch , but also just as many who have made a ton selling there collection. >>
And there are folks who have more money than they know what to do with. They're into collecting coins for the enjoyment and perhaps, they don't mind sharing their good fortune with others. I could easily do the same if I had the chance. That's not all bad, is it? But many here just think it's loony and cast negative thoughts what some moderns fetch. But think about this for a second, what if the guy doesn't really mind? The only thing I worry about is that they are getting the best coin possible.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
Oreville. Now, we are getting to the HEART of the OP's thread. First, we need to set aside the Wash quarter series as the "poster child" of a bad series as it is not. Nearly all coin series I have observed are facing what the OP is pointing out with the quarters - across the board.
But, since you asked me a sincere question, I will give you a sincere answer. I have lost 7 or 8 pop 1/0 quarters recently (that had been pop 1/0 for years if not a decade or more) to (for the most part) very low end coins for the grade (generously put) ... plain and simple. I recently passed on a pop 1/0 silver MS68 quarter where my MS67+ in the set was far nicer and two weeks later that date became pop 2/0 in MS68! Low end for the grade is everywhere now, but if you buy quality coins you simply must steer away from coins that look "too good to be true" due to price for the grade. And, what keeps me going is my conviction that this is essentially a ratings game and if the new MS68 coins look a certain way, then MS68+ quarters are right around the corner (and perhaps my nicest coin or two might even grade MS69 one day). Ditto for silver Roosie Dimes (just ask "OnlyRoosies" from our boards), Jefferson nickels, Lincoln Cents and a ton of classic coin series' coins as well.
Strong suggestion ...a new collector should align himself/herself with an expert dealer in the series they are seriously buying coins in. Enough said.
As always, just my two cents.
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
I truly believe a 1964 Washington silver quarter could fetch $15,000, that is, it has an early die state strike. One of the very first coins produced off the earliest of working dies, it's a needle in a haystack find, if it survived and there would be others but in what condition? I'm not talking about a near-bald George Washington, fading digits and feathers quarter in a 67 holder, the coin must all the original details intended by the sculptor. Yeah, than it's worth $15,000 and there's a good chance, it won't be mark free. But where are those grading standards? They really don't exist and with a price guide. They're coins wanted by the most particular.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
Modern coins don't have anywhere near the longevity of awareness by the market and haven't been tracked/inspected in as much detail as classic coins, but I think the people who collect them are aware of the risks. Every time someone celebrates making a new "top pop", the incumbent loses out.
Learn about our world's shared history told through the first millennium of coinage: Colosseo Collection
Smeagle1795 ... What I find interesting is the focus is always back to "modern" coins. Are you aware of the tremendous price drops for many of the classics as well? In many cases, the only difference is that with the classic coin, the loss simply adds another "0" to the math calculations.
Want an example ...
The key date 1912-S Liberty Nickel in PCGS-MS66...
01-03-12 Heritage Fun auction - $37,375 04-05-15 Heritage Central States auction - $8,813
Is that more than a 70% drop in 3 years?
For those classic Silver Commem fans ... how about the Pop 3/0 Pan Pac in PCGS-MS68 (!!) that just sold at the Heritage Central States (4/15) auction for $30,550 ($26,000 hammer plus buyers' fee) as compared with the three prior prices realized of $66,125, $57,500 and $51,750 (while Price Guide still shows $45,000 even after the $30,550 performance). If consignor on the coin got hammer of $26,000 I can only imagine how much he might have lost on that one.
And, on and on and on.
Back to my Washington quarters, I picked up for my proof set (a set I am not even strongly concentrating on but can't resist the bargains) the exceedingly tough 1937 Proof in PCGS-PR68 (Pop 3/0) at the April, 2015 Heritage sale for $6,500 hammer plus buyers fee!!) Last sale before that at Heritage was June, 2013 at $16,400 and before than in June, 2011 for $17,825. I'll shop at the near 60% off sales whenever I can (until the money runs out!).
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
Really?? a 1964 Quarter? For $4500 why not buy a quality early gold coin or a C or D mint gold coin or a few three dollar gold coins or something rare like that, that will not be a losing investment--at least not a big losing investment. Most truly rare coins do not go down in value over time. Coins are not supposed to be investments in the first place. Rare coins are not a losing investment in the long term. No truly rare coin sells for less today than it did 20-30 years ago. The problem is that most people do not know what a rare coin is because of the overuse of the word "rare". The speculative run-up on so-called modern condition rarities will always leave someone losing a big amount of money. It like playing hot-potato. The last one holding the potato loses. You need to avoid the speculative issues or you may be the one holding the hot potato. I can say in all truth that any of the bust or seated coins or Morgan dollars (or any coin that I purchased over 10 years ago for that matter) , I will not lose any money on if I sold them today. There are many takers now.
"It is not the person who says dumb things that is the idiot-the idiot is the person who believes him."--unknown
many US vintage coins bringing lower than what they purchased them for say 6 mo to 1.5 yr ago. Sometimes as low as 50% of original purchase price. Occasionally they will sell for more but not very often.
selling in that time frame is just foolish, but it is done quite often. I suspect it is the result of new/inexperienced "collectors" charting prices and thinking they can make a quick profit. in reality, it almost always takes longer than that to make up the spread and break even during good times. when things are slow and heading down such as now it is a losing proposition.
I would ask this question of Cougar1978 --- why do you consistently end up on the wrong side of so many things??
One beautiful thing I've noticed over the years …. no matter the economy or environment or the stock market's ups and downs, or the price of silver , gold, or tea in China, or the losses taken…. coins rock coin people's socks off. And who thinks of them as investments isn't that much of a numismatist, in my opinion. The man/woman/child who sees the beauty and knows what he likes (hobbyists are passionate) does not typically see his "actions" in the hobby as investment class moves. They're moves of "passion" due to his "enjoyment of the hobby".
So do not LISTEN to those who tell you if and when something is a good investment. "COLLECT" what you like. That's all.
It always comes down to a simple fact; the number of modern collectors will continue growing for decades. The demand for any specific modern coin can increase or decrease but the total number of collectors and the aggregate de- mand will increase.
Demand for classics will rebound some day because... ...well... ...they are classics but the owners are into their retirement years and the collections will be dispersed.
I think what we're seeing the last year or two isn't being caused demograph- ics or grading vagaries but rather by weak gold and silver prices and a still evolving market.
<< <i>I truly believe a 1964 Washington silver quarter could fetch $15,000, that is, it has an early die state strike. One of the very first coins produced off the earliest of working dies, it's a needle in a haystack find, if it survived and there would be others but in what condition? I'm not talking about a near-bald George Washington, fading digits and feathers quarter in a 67 holder, the coin must all the original details intended by the sculptor. Yeah, than it's worth $15,000 and there's a good chance, it won't be mark free. But where are those grading standards? They really don't exist and with a price guide. They're coins wanted by the most particular. >>
Well struck coins from new dies will prove to be a major player in the market over the years. Collectors will eventually notice that such coins are quite few and far between and then they'll notice attractive specimens are even tougher. Does it really matter if a coins is missing lots of detail because it's worn off or because it was never on the working die at all? ...Or if the die was OK but the strike was poor?
I personally would much rather collect a nice well made coin with a little light marking than a pristine coin missing a lot of detail and made with worn dies.
The grading system for classics was simply adapted to moderns rather than col- lectors determining what exactly they wanted. In time collectors will choose nice strikes and those who do will be rewarded while those who choose other essential characteristic of grading will not. No market is really efficient and collectibles markets are among the least efficient.
What never ceases to amaze me is that quite a few collectors of classic coins completely miss the perspective of collectors of modern coins. The coin market is NOT a single market by any means, the only thing they have in common are they are coins and they are collected. Washington quarters are interesting in that they succeeded the run of the last of the classics IMHO. Having put together a set of silver Washington quarters in PCGS 66, I know a bit about the series without being an expert like Mitch. That said, when I sold them I actually made money.
It is not because either the market moved or that I made any coin myself, it is more that I took my time an bought right. Collecting one level below what is needed to compete in the registry "game" provides the ability to buy very nice coins for far less money. I bought right by being patient and having my own standard for eye appeal. The little collector can still do well using that methodology as well as frequent coin shows, use Heritage, eBay, etc in the search for nice coins that fit your profile. This after all, is a HOBBY! The reason I end up selling is that I accumulate all or most of a series and then realize how much capital I have tied up in it and sell off that set in order to build the next one. Now I am doing a type set of classic coins.
I wish people could open their eyes to the fact that there are collectors of every rank and not assail the ones who collect what they do not. I appreciate moderns pursued by folks like CladKing and Wondercoin, yet I also appreciate the circulated classic coins I can afford and ALSO love the coins that folks like TDN can afford. There are ALL different markets, with different players and different pricing models. And NONE of them are more righteous than any of the others, and ALL of them are a pillar of this hobby. Clearly I have left out other sectors, but those are the 3 biggest IMHO.
Irrational choices can be made in all of these sectors, yet the knowledgable will continue to thrive. The hobby is not dying and the sky is not falling. Prices go up and down, particularly on the high end where the relationship to the economy is much closer. Just my 2 cents
Retired United States Mint guy, now working on an Everyman Type Set.
Gradeflation sucks but you can use it to your advantage. Buy a couple of the dogs (errrr - new standard bearers) and use them as comparison coins to get yours into a justifiably higher holder.
Complaining about the inevitable does nothing...adapt.
Deep coin, Cladking and any others interested... Check out the June, 2015 edition of Coinage magazine for a good (6) page story on the 50th Anniversary of Clad coins. A copy of the article will be on my website (to read) starting tomorrow night or you can buy a one year subscription on line to the magazine for about $1/month. I received permission to post the article on my site because I was interviewed for the story. Wondercoin.
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
<< <i>If you want to play the numbers game and think you can beat all the other "investors" buying one of the most common silver quarters ever made I think you will lose.
When I see $$$ numbers being quoted for these quarters in the highest grades I automatically think of all the scarcer classic coins you could buy instead. >>
Sometimes, it’s better to be LUCKY than good. 🍀 🍺👍
Comments
<< <i>"Washington Quarters LOL - worst thing one can invest in IMO."
Unfortunately, not even remotely close to the "worst". If you only knew about the classics and/or moderns that make those quarters look like OK buys by comparison!
Wondercoin >>
Nice try but you will need to sell that to somebody else. Except for 32D and 32S - Don't care for Wash 25c.
And, the fact that you don't care for Wash quarters is no problem. It was your premise I commented on, which I believe is flat out wrong.
Wondercoin
Wondercoin
PCGS Registries
Box of 20
SeaEagleCoins: 11/14/54-4/5/12. Miss you Larry!
Wondercoin
<< <i>I strongly agree with op. Coin market seems in tank. Coin Club members have been blowing out some coins starting at 99c and 9.95 on ebay (it is almost impossible get retail there) and many US vintage coins bringing lower than what they purchased them for say 6 mo to 1.5 yr ago. Sometimes as low as 50% of original purchase price. Occasionally they will sell for more but not very often.
The CDN graphs also illustrate this by far. The CCDN Coin Market Index for May 1 2015 is 985.91 vs 1000 for Jan 1990 baseline. Adjusted for inflation this is dismal for coin market. Look at losses people are taking on HOF Dollars. The CDN Quarterly I for April 2015 shows horrible losses on type dimes (Barber and Lib Seated w legend) in MS63 and MS65.
I have a number of US and World vintage coins I have blown out recently starting at 9.95 - horrible losses on most compared to what they were purchased for months ago. 36% on HOF Dollar PCGS 69, 22% on NGC 63 1884 Morgan Dollar, 50 % loss on civil war PCGS graded XF 45 Indian Cent, 9% gain on 1892 NGC 64 half. a 58% loss on 1918f on graded German Mark piece. 40% loss on 1949-S 10c PCGS 66. On six coins I blew out I got $365 against $445 cost, about 18% loss. Now I have retailed coins for 50-200% more on the Bay but these are few and far between.
I think I will stick to graded bullion coins from here on out coupled with a high cash vs inventory position. No more being a collector at heart for me, tired of all the red ink. It is really hard for the most part to make money with USM stuff bc they almost always go down in aftermarket unless some huge bullion uptick.
As far as those touting the big ticket coins only the wealthy can afford: hey put your money where your mouth is and start one on ebay in a real auction at 9.95 and c how it ends up. the proof is in the pudding......sure I read the success stories in the CDN but there are losers too.
Washington Quarters LOL - worst thing one can invest in IMO.
Sellers are taking a blood bath - unless you buy it right - buy low / sell high taking tables at shows good luck. The problem is there is hardly anyone walking in the door with anything to sell / buy right. Plus the show expenses will eat into or eliminate your profit bc of many big dealers w big inventories doing wholesale (probably to make ends meet). It seems like the people going to shows have less money to spend - Central States Horrible for many dealers.
Now I do believe this may be a good time to get some good deals vs price guides but will you make any money? >>
You are often going to lose if you sell six to fifteen months after buying even in an upmarket
You are going to get hurt buying price
You are going to get hurt buying widgets and then selling them into this market
Why would anybody want to put big ticket coins on Ebay starting at $9.95?
Generally when you buy low you sell lower. That is exactly the worst part of the market
Graded bullion coins as the answer? Good luck. Hope it's the ticket for you
Mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
Modern coins I have purchased have done very welll.
And in case anyone is prejudiced against the new stuff, here's a really modern one:
<< <i>MS67 and MS68 Washington quarters generally peaked in price in the 2006-2008 period. Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe they have generally slid down in price since then....along with much of the US coin market. Typical market cycling. The MS67's may have never been worth that $4500. Did any trade at that level. ... >>
Yes, 4 traded at that level, from 2004-2011, and 4 more traded between $3000-4000 in 2012-3/2013 before results dropped below $2000.
Here are the recorded Auction Prices Realized for PCGS MS67 1964 (P) 25c, sorted by date:
11/1/2003 $3,335
1/1/2004 $7,188 (population 4 PCGS MS67 at this time)
1/1/2007 $6,325
12/1/2008 $5,750
1/1/2011 $5,290
4/1/2012 $3,738 (population 8 PCGS MS67 at this time)
4/1/2012 $3,450
11/1/2012 $3,672 CAC
1/1/2013 $2,585 CAC
3/1/2013 $3,819
8/1/2013 $2,006 (population 10 PCGS MS67 and 1 PCGS MS67+ at this time)
11/1/2013 $1,763
12/1/2013 $1,462
2/1/2014 $1,528
2/1/2014 $1,116
3/1/2014 $1,293 (population 13 PCGS MS67 and 0? PCGS MS67+ at this time)
6/1/2014 $1,175
9/1/2014 $700
9/1/2014 $499
1/1/2015 $1,058
1/1/2015 $1,026 (population 15 PCGS MS67 and 0? PCGS MS67+ at this time)
5/2015 $? (population 17 PCGS MS67 and 2 PCGS MS67+ now)
http://www.pcgs.com/auctionprices/details.aspx?r=5876&v=&dv=1964&pf=ms&c=112&g=0
We might be seeing that only a few people wanted them for registry sets, and then nobody else wanted to pay at that level.
Or simply the expanding population of PCGS MS67.
I ignored the NGC MS67 results - it looked like they never traded above $1000 since one did in 2003.
Five NGC MS67* and NGC MS67+ have traded slightly above $1000 (one made it to $1725 in 2012).
And as Rick mentioned, there is also an effect of overgraded coins appearing more frequently in auctions.
I checked the certificate numbers. Of the 21 sales, 17 had observable cert numbers, and only one cert appeared twice (2/14 and 3/14).
However, I'd say the most dramatic toner is the one which sold for $6325. (Though I'm no expert).
I am not sure if + grades were a factor - I don't see any PCGS MS67+ in the auction results, and only one MS66+ there.
But the existence of an MS67+ was noted during the drop below $2000.
I agree with others that we shouldn't judge returns on the entire range of coins based on condition rarity for one particular date/mintmark.
And I agree that there are better monetary investments than coins (if you do not count the enjoyment factor).
<< <i>A. Grading has always been subjective.
B. Markets go up and down.
C. Those who are ignorant of the realities of the current market may find pleasant or unpleasant surprises.
D. If investing is the goal, there are better options.
E. Not all segments of the market move in the same direction at the same time.
F. Playing around with common coins at uncommon prices (condition rarities) can be fickle. >>
I pick F.
Apples: You collect coins for beauty, pleasure, coolness, sentimentality, etc. You have no plans to sell, and are buying the best most awesome material your money can buy (in your opinion).
Oranges: You buy coins (and NCLT, bullion, etc.) solely with the intention of reselling for profit. And thus, you are also buying the "best," most awesome material your money can buy. You may appreciate its beauty, but that's just the silver lining. You really only care about the profit and growth potential.
Some folks fall into both categories. In fact, most of us have bought both apples and oranges numerous times. But threads like this reveal in which category we really belong. Personally, I believe if even 10% of your buying is "apples" then you are essentially an apple at heart. Your 10% is your collection and the rest is just investment. And if you are going to invest, you might as well invest in bullion or stock certificates. Complaining about the investment potential of non-rare coins just doesn't make sense.
Amat Colligendo Focum
Top 10 • FOR SALE
I assumed they got a bump and rode the statehood quarter wave. Then declined and leveled off.
Interesting thread.
"If I say something in the woods and my wife isn't there to hear it.....am I still wrong?"
My Washington Quarter Registry set...in progress
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Wondercoin
Dave
Wondercoin
People don't understand condition rarity until they try and slab a coin in pcgs ms 67. You can't just make blanket statements based upon how old the coin is.
Mitch, do you remember when you offered $1,000/coin on the boards to anyone who could slab multiple pcgs ms 67 and everyone thought it would be easy and not a single coin turned up of course.
Not likely, unless you can produce thousands of BU bags.
Dave
Now why exactly should I stop buying coins when I've been at it for 30 years? Just avoid the overvalued material, don't buy at screaming high retail, and chill.
Yes, I do. And, even better. At one of the early PCGS "Invitationals" (when they were held in Newport Beach, CA before Vegas), I was sitting with a full table of classic coin dealers and the topic of modern coins came in (and how easy they were to slab in top grades). To make a long story shot, I offered $1,000/coin for the production of some specific clad quarters in PCGS-MS67 with a max. of (5) that I would payout at the next Invitational held the following month. One of the coin dealers literally left the dinner and went directly to his shop at 10:00 p.m. to start to work on making the easiest $5,000 he thought he would ever make! One month later, you can guess what I ended up paying out to the group. One "world class" classic coin upgrader was getting back MS64RD Lincolns when he tried his hand at high grade Memorial Cents at that time! LOL.
Wondercoin
Wondercoin
<< <i>The CDN graphs also illustrate this by far. The CCDN Coin Market Index for May 1 2015 is 985.91 vs 1000 for Jan 1990 baseline. Adjusted for inflation this is dismal for coin market. Look at losses people are taking on HOF Dollars. The CDN Quarterly I for April 2015 shows horrible losses on type dimes (Barber and Lib Seated w legend) in MS63 and MS65. >>
The fact that you are using the CDN Coin Market Index, or even greysheet in general, is your first and biggest mistake. The CDN isn't worth the paper it is printed on. They don't even update anything but the most common Morgan Dollars. If anything the CDN is driving prices down regardless of the market. JMHO.
Choice Numismatics www.ChoiceCoin.com
CN eBay
All of my collection is in a safe deposit box!
<< <i>Here is the former Pop 1/0 MS68 coin that was pop 1 for years and years and years (ex: me, Craig, David and me again). The next photo (in my next post) is the MS68 coin PCGS recently graded that knocked my coin out of pop 1/0 status to pop 2/0. I have lost 7 or 8 different pop 1/0 coins in my set to coins like this in the past year. But, I also have not submitted a coin for upgrade from my quarter set in the past roughly 12-18 months. So, I would fully expect some upgrades when PCGS see my coins again at some point in the future. Wondercoin
I would take this MS 68 over the newly made MS 68 coin any day.
EDIT for spelling.
Choice Numismatics www.ChoiceCoin.com
CN eBay
All of my collection is in a safe deposit box!
How can that new MS-68 1949 quarter justify the 68 grade with that obvious bag mark on the neck of the eagle?
That quarter looks like a 66+ to me as the luster is rather subdued (based on only looking at pics).
Your 1949 oozes with luster, especially on the reverse!!
<< <i>I know of several people who have lost a bunch , but also just as many who have made a ton selling there collection. >>
And there are folks who have more money than they know what to do with. They're into collecting coins for the enjoyment and perhaps, they don't mind sharing their good fortune with others. I could easily do the same if I had the chance. That's not all bad, is it? But many here just think it's loony and cast negative thoughts what some moderns fetch. But think about this for a second, what if the guy doesn't really mind? The only thing I worry about is that they are getting the best coin possible.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
But, since you asked me a sincere question, I will give you a sincere answer. I have lost 7 or 8 pop 1/0 quarters recently (that had been pop 1/0 for years if not a decade or more) to (for the most part) very low end coins for the grade (generously put) ... plain and simple. I recently passed on a pop 1/0 silver MS68 quarter where my MS67+ in the set was far nicer and two weeks later that date became pop 2/0 in MS68! Low end for the grade is everywhere now, but if you buy quality coins you simply must steer away from coins that look "too good to be true" due to price for the grade. And, what keeps me going is my conviction that this is essentially a ratings game and if the new MS68 coins look a certain way, then MS68+ quarters are right around the corner (and perhaps my nicest coin or two might even grade MS69 one day). Ditto for silver Roosie Dimes (just ask "OnlyRoosies" from our boards), Jefferson nickels, Lincoln Cents and a ton of classic coin series' coins as well.
Strong suggestion ...a new collector should align himself/herself with an expert dealer in the series they are seriously buying coins in. Enough said.
As always, just my two cents.
Wondercoin
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
Want an example ...
The key date 1912-S Liberty Nickel in PCGS-MS66...
01-03-12 Heritage Fun auction - $37,375
04-05-15 Heritage Central States auction - $8,813
Is that more than a 70% drop in 3 years?
For those classic Silver Commem fans ... how about the Pop 3/0 Pan Pac in PCGS-MS68 (!!) that just sold at the Heritage Central States (4/15) auction for $30,550 ($26,000 hammer plus buyers' fee) as compared with the three prior prices realized of $66,125, $57,500 and $51,750 (while Price Guide still shows $45,000 even after the $30,550 performance). If consignor on the coin got hammer of $26,000 I can only imagine how much he might have lost on that one.
And, on and on and on.
Back to my Washington quarters, I picked up for my proof set (a set I am not even strongly concentrating on but can't resist the bargains) the exceedingly tough 1937 Proof in PCGS-PR68 (Pop 3/0) at the April, 2015 Heritage sale for $6,500 hammer plus buyers fee!!) Last sale before that at Heritage was June, 2013 at $16,400 and before than in June, 2011 for $17,825. I'll shop at the near 60% off sales whenever I can (until the money runs out!).
Wondercoin
I can say in all truth that any of the bust or seated coins or Morgan dollars (or any coin that I purchased over 10 years ago for that matter) , I will not lose any money on if I sold them today. There are many takers now.
"It is not the person who says dumb things that is the idiot-the idiot is the person who believes him."--unknown
selling in that time frame is just foolish, but it is done quite often. I suspect it is the result of new/inexperienced "collectors" charting prices and thinking they can make a quick profit. in reality, it almost always takes longer than that to make up the spread and break even during good times. when things are slow and heading down such as now it is a losing proposition.
I would ask this question of Cougar1978 --- why do you consistently end up on the wrong side of so many things??
So do not LISTEN to those who tell you if and when something is a good investment. "COLLECT" what you like. That's all.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
continue growing for decades. The demand for any specific modern coin can
increase or decrease but the total number of collectors and the aggregate de-
mand will increase.
Demand for classics will rebound some day because... ...well... ...they are
classics but the owners are into their retirement years and the collections will
be dispersed.
I think what we're seeing the last year or two isn't being caused demograph-
ics or grading vagaries but rather by weak gold and silver prices and a still
evolving market.
<< <i>I truly believe a 1964 Washington silver quarter could fetch $15,000, that is, it has an early die state strike. One of the very first coins produced off the earliest of working dies, it's a needle in a haystack find, if it survived and there would be others but in what condition? I'm not talking about a near-bald George Washington, fading digits and feathers quarter in a 67 holder, the coin must all the original details intended by the sculptor. Yeah, than it's worth $15,000 and there's a good chance, it won't be mark free. But where are those grading standards? They really don't exist and with a price guide. They're coins wanted by the most particular.
>>
Well struck coins from new dies will prove to be a major player in the market
over the years. Collectors will eventually notice that such coins are quite few
and far between and then they'll notice attractive specimens are even tougher.
Does it really matter if a coins is missing lots of detail because it's worn off or
because it was never on the working die at all? ...Or if the die was OK but the
strike was poor?
I personally would much rather collect a nice well made coin with a little light
marking than a pristine coin missing a lot of detail and made with worn dies.
The grading system for classics was simply adapted to moderns rather than col-
lectors determining what exactly they wanted. In time collectors will choose nice
strikes and those who do will be rewarded while those who choose other essential
characteristic of grading will not. No market is really efficient and collectibles
markets are among the least efficient.
It is not because either the market moved or that I made any coin myself, it is more that I took my time an bought right. Collecting one level below what is needed to compete in the registry "game" provides the ability to buy very nice coins for far less money. I bought right by being patient and having my own standard for eye appeal. The little collector can still do well using that methodology as well as frequent coin shows, use Heritage, eBay, etc in the search for nice coins that fit your profile. This after all, is a HOBBY! The reason I end up selling is that I accumulate all or most of a series and then realize how much capital I have tied up in it and sell off that set in order to build the next one. Now I am doing a type set of classic coins.
I wish people could open their eyes to the fact that there are collectors of every rank and not assail the ones who collect what they do not. I appreciate moderns pursued by folks like CladKing and Wondercoin, yet I also appreciate the circulated classic coins I can afford and ALSO love the coins that folks like TDN can afford. There are ALL different markets, with different players and different pricing models. And NONE of them are more righteous than any of the others, and ALL of them are a pillar of this hobby. Clearly I have left out other sectors, but those are the 3 biggest IMHO.
Irrational choices can be made in all of these sectors, yet the knowledgable will continue to thrive. The hobby is not dying and the sky is not falling. Prices go up and down, particularly on the high end where the relationship to the economy is much closer. Just my 2 cents
Complaining about the inevitable does nothing...adapt.
<< <i>If you want to play the numbers game and think you can beat all the other "investors" buying one of the most common silver quarters ever made I think you will lose.
When I see $$$ numbers being quoted for these quarters in the highest grades I automatically think of all the scarcer classic coins you could buy instead. >>
Sometimes, it’s better to be LUCKY than good. 🍀 🍺👍
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https://www.ngccoin.com/registry/competitive-sets/16292/
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