Missing Gold - PAYPAL Making it Right

CharlotteDude · April 11, 2015 11:04PM

UPDATE - I wanted to put this at the top so folks wouldn't have to mill to the end of the posts. Looks like PAYPAL is going to make things right, hopefully the $$ comes through.
I want to thank all the members who provided constructive suggestions and reassurances regarding this incident. I appreciate all of your input and PMs.

... and good on Paypal for protecting the consumer.

BTW, all names, identifying data and monetary amounts in the below message have been altered to protect both the innocent and the guilty.

thanks,

A relieved 'dude

PAYPAL message:

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Resolution of Your Case: #PP-003-843-507-XXXX
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Dear Mr. Dude,

We have concluded our investigation into your case and have decided in your
favor.

You have indicated that a partial refund of "a wee more than" $3,000.00 USD would be
satisfactory.
We were able to recover "that wee more than" $3,000.00 USD and this amount has been credited to
you. Please allow five business days for this adjustment to be posted.

If you are due any additional funds, we will make our best effort to
recover the balance from the seller.

If the seller's account has insufficient funds to complete the refund owed
to you, please be assured that we will take appropriate action against the
seller's account, which may include limitation of the seller's account
privileges.

-----------------------------------
Transaction Details
-----------------------------------

Seller's Name: Cletus Festers
Seller's Email: CletusFesters@yahoo.com
Seller's Transaction ID: 14007763KU29XXXXX

Transaction Date: Apr 8, 2015
Transaction Amount: A wee more than $3,000.00 USD
Your Transaction ID: 0LSSSS98SSSXXXX
Case Number: PP-003-843-507-XXXX

Buyer's Transaction ID: 0LS6XXXXXXXXX98XXX

-----------------------------------
What to Do Next
-----------------------------------

No further action is required by you at this time.

-----------------------------------
Other Details
-----------------------------------

To make sure future transactions proceed smoothly, we suggest you visit the
PayPal site and click the Security Center link located at the top of any
page. There you will find tips on how to avoid fraudulent sellers in the
"Fraud Prevention Tips for Buyers" section.

To learn more about PayPal's Buyer Protection Program, go to the PayPal
website and click the Security Center link located at the bottom of any
page.

Thanks,
PayPal Protection Services Department
Sincerely,
PayPal

----------------------------------------------------------------------
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https://www.paypal.com/us/cgi-bin/helpweb?cmd=_help
Security Center:
https://www.paypal.com/us/security

This email was sent by an automated system, so if you reply, nobody will
see it. To get in touch with us, log in to your account and click "Contact
Us" at the bottom of any page.

Copyright © 2015 PayPal, Inc. All rights reserved. PayPal is located at
2211 N. First St., San Jose, CA 95131.

PayPal Email ID PP769 - 1fff78fee7085

OPENING / INITIAL POST:
Need some advice/experienced opinions on a matter that recently happened. Earlier this week, I agreed to purchase several common-date gold coins from a fellow forum member - price north of $3000.00. I've never dealt with the gentleman before, so we agreed I'd make payment via PAYPAL. Confirmation PMs were exchanged that payment was received and the coins were shipped. Fast forward to yesterday, and the Postman drives up to the house, and pulls out the below package from the seller:

I immediately realized the package had been tampered with/opened, so I asked the postman if I could look inside the gaping hole to confirm its contents. There was only one coin inside the envelope, meaning over $2000 worth of gold was missing. I took several photos of both the package and postman who tried to deliver it, and refused to accept the package. I advised the Postman to send it back to the sender. During this brief conversation, I confirmed w/the postman that the seller DID NOT insure the package, only 1st Class mail w/signature confirmation - seriously??

I called the cell # the seller provided. His son (late teens/early 20's yrs old?) answered the call, stated his father (with whom I thought I had been dealing) rarely used the phone I called, and confirmed that he (the son) was the one who shipped the coins, and that he (the son) shipped the coins without insurance. At that point, I didn't know if I had been dealing with what I thought was the original seller or the son since Day 1.

By this time, my level of aggravation was pretty much top-lining. I notified Paypal, provided details, and requested a refund due to the seller's lack of delivering the purchased coins. I emailed the seller, informing him of the Paypal claim, and requested he refund the money to my account. After a couple exchanges, his reply was that he was going to provide Paypal his "side of the story" and that we would "see what happens".

This is the first time out of many, many transactions with PCGS forum members in which I've had any issue with a purchase or sale. I don't often use PAYPAL, so I have no personal experience with their claims process or how they tend to rule.

To me, this should be a cut and dry situation. I paid the seller the requested $$ for the coins via Paypal w/buyer's protection (and through my personal credit card). I don't know if the seller shipped all of the coins, or only one. All I can confirm is that the package the USPS tried to deliver yesterday had been tampered with/opened, and was missing all but one coin. The package made the journey with only one coin, which I refused and sent back to the seller. It is noted as such on the USPS.com website. It was on the seller to acquire adequate insurance for the coins. Any loss of the coins is a matter between the seller/sender and the USPS, as well as any compensation to the seller from the USPS, correct? Although due to the failure of the sender to secure any insurance for the package, I doubt the USPS will reimburse the seller for any claim.

I have provided Paypal with copies of the PM exchanges, emails, email w/seller's pictures of the coins, and photographs taken of the package w/the postman.

Question: How does Paypal typically rule on such matters? Anyone have experience/recommendations for this situation?

Any advice would be appreciated,

thanks -

'dude

Broadstruck · April 11, 2015 11:09PM

If Paypal doesn't make you whole contact your Credit Card company.

I think you'll be OK in the end.

joebb21 · April 11, 2015 11:17PM

The refusal to sign for the package should be enough for you to win.
Might take 1-2 weeks at most- but youll be fine.

Also the responsibility of getting the coins safely from the seller to the buyer always is on the seller.

There is also no need to open that in from of your postman as he now knows who you are and what you collect.

CharlotteDude · April 11, 2015 11:24PM

Thanks Broadstruck - that would be my next course of action if Paypal fails to honor its buyer's protection policy here. Has anyone had such an experience where Paypal didn't protect the buyer in a situation like this? I was told the dispute process would take until 1 May, to which I protested, due to over $3000 now being held hostage. They offered an escalation, to which I promptly requested. The escalation process is supposed to take 10 days - still frustrating, but better than having to wait over 3 weeks.

What gets me is that the seller (which for all I know was probably the young man all along) knew he was sending the package uninsured, apparently to save a few bucks. That gamble ended up going bad, and he knows it, yet he informs me that he has a "side of the story" and that we would have to wait to see "what happens" with Paypal. All I know, is that as a seller, if the merchandise I received money for doesn't reach the buyer, it is on ME to promptly refund the buyer, not go through a Paypal dispute process. It would be on me, as the seller, to file for recompense with the USPS for the lost merchandise, and not try to absolve myself of responsibility for reimbursing the buyer. This causes me to question the integrity of the seller.

'dude

rawteam1 · April 11, 2015 11:47PM

Riddle me this... Does a moron know what a box is?...

CharlotteDude · April 11, 2015 11:54PM

Riddle me this... Does a moron know what a box is?...

While I don't want this thread to digress to slinging ugly names or comments, I will admit I did audibly express some colorful commentary about the seller when the postman confirmed the package had been shipped without insurance.

'dude

Brol · April 12, 2015 12:07AM

yeah, if I send up to $500 worth of coins I use bubble mailer and usually I do not buy insurance. If I send more than $500 all my coins go priority flat rate with insurance and sig. confirmation.
Smart step of buying with paypal and paying with CC! This way you have double buyer protection. You will be fine. Good luck!

Sunshine Rare Coins · April 12, 2015 12:10AM

This is example of why I only ship coins priority mail in a flat rate box.

Also, who sends 3k worth of gold using first class mail????

claychaser · April 12, 2015 12:13AM

I think its always best when negotiating the price to specifically call out that the price includes "shipping and insurance", or that's the "delivered" price. For shipments of that value and small size, Express Mail is a better choice and the insurance rate is 1/2 of that for Priority Mail.

s4ny · April 12, 2015 12:15AM

Should be straightforward, the seller is responsible and isn't insured.

I cannot imagine what "his side of the story" is going to be.

Maybe the young man sold the coins without the owner's consent. If PayPal
credited the seller's account and the money is already gone, PayPal will have to
eat the loss.

Keep us updated, this story has legs.

CharlotteDude · April 12, 2015 12:17AM

Just to confirm, the seller did state via PM that he would ship the coins insured w/signature confirmation. Unfortunately, that didn't happen.

'dude

blu62vette · April 12, 2015 12:23AM

Should be an easy win if paid with paypal for $3k and no signature on the package.

I am a fan of a small flat rate box put inside the flat rate tyvek bubble mailer.

AnkurJ · April 12, 2015 12:27AM

<< Just to confirm, the seller did state via PM that he would ship the coins insured w/signature confirmation. Unfortunately, that didn't happen.

'dude >>

He may have private insurance.

derryb · April 12, 2015 12:34AM

Seller's side of the story is simple - he does not have the required proof of delivery that Paypal will be asking him for.

Paypal views the coins as belonging to the seller until signed for by the buyer. Without this required proof of delivery Paypal will see to it that your money is returned provided you did not use paypal "gift" option to make payment.

If this was a BST seller please provide his ID so others don't have to go through the same hassle.

CharlotteDude · April 12, 2015 12:39AM

Perhaps, Ankur... But the "son" admitted that he mailed the package with zero insurance.

Personally, I hope he does actually have insurance, but again, that's a matter between him and the USPS. The matter between him and I ($3000+), should have already been resolved. The USPS website states that I refused the package as is and the USPS was returning it to sender, however I just learned from PayPal that he has disputed my claim for reimbursement. That causes me to seriously question his integrity, and as someone who is actively offering a coin now on the BST, I would be very wary of purchasing from him.

'dude

GRANDAM · April 12, 2015 12:43AM

How would the package make it onto a USPS truck with the side cut open and 1 coin still in it and (2) coins missing ?

If a thief stold (2) coins why would he leave the 3rd coin?

Why would a USPS route driver even accept for delivery a package that is opened on the side like that?

Even if the delivery carrier is in no way responsible it will surely look bad for him.

Would not someone along the delivery line at USPS notice that the package had been tampered with?

GrandAm

AUandAG · April 12, 2015 12:45AM

You are covered, period. Seller will lose any case and will be forced to refund (or Paypal will themselves)

bob

CharlotteDude · April 12, 2015 12:46AM

Seller's side of the story is simple - he does not have the required proof of delivery that Paypal will be asking him for.

Paypal views the coins as belonging to the seller until signed for by the buyer. Without this required proof of delivery Paypal will see to it that your money is returned provided you did not use paypal "gift" option to make payment.

If this was a BST seller please provide his ID so others don't have to go through the same hassle.

He actually has something for sale on the BST now. While I won't ID him here on the open forum (I consider it bad form), I will provide his ID via PM, upon request, if he doesn't make this right by tomorrow morning 9:00 am EST.

'dude

blu62vette · April 12, 2015 12:47AM

<< 

<< Just to confirm, the seller did state via PM that he would ship the coins insured w/signature confirmation. Unfortunately, that didn't happen.

'dude >>

He may have private insurance. >>

I cant imagine private insurance not needing a signature for $3k. I can do del confirm on my private insurance for up to $500. Most private insurance want double boxed and sig required for $3k of insurance.

If he did have private insurance he should have stated that in his reply.

drwstr123 · April 12, 2015 12:49AM

<< How would the package make it onto a USPS truck with the side cut open and 1 coin still in it and (2) coins missing ?

If a thief stold (2) coins why would he leave the 3rd coin?

Why would a USPS route driver even accept for delivery a package that is opened on the side like that?

Even if the delivery carrier is in no way responsible it will surely look bad for him.

Would not someone along the delivery line at USPS notice that the package had been tampered with?

GrandAm >>

To my knowledge the 'damaged' package should have been endorsed as 'received unsealed (or damaged) at __________ Post Office'.
If not, the carrier should not have taken it for delivery.

CharlotteDude · April 12, 2015 12:51AM

How would the package make it onto a USPS truck with the side cut open and 1 coin still in it and (2) coins missing ?

If a thief stold (2) coins why would he leave the 3rd coin?

Why would a USPS route driver even accept for delivery a package that is opened on the side like that?

Even if the delivery carrier is in no way responsible it will surely look bad for him.

Would not someone along the delivery line at USPS notice that the package had been tampered with?

Those are all questions that I wished I had answers to - particularly your 2nd question. I can only say that I don't believe the postman, who is my weekend carrier, didn't realize the package was open until he pulled it out of the mail bin to hand it to me.

'dude

blu62vette · April 12, 2015 12:52AM

BTW after this happens once, time for a PO box. But don't let items like the envelope under the damaged package go there.

lcoopie · April 12, 2015 12:53AM

the few damaged envelopes I've seen have had some official indication by the post office of damage and an attempt of the post office to seal up the package

you were very wise to refuse the package

I'd contact the credit card company immediately cancel the payment

I'd think that the coins were taken by the post office staff

ColonelJessup · April 12, 2015 12:55AM

So the kid messed up big-time and is now weaseling? The dealership (father's name) is weaseling too. While you may think you're being reasonable and discreet in omitting this pathetic putz' name, and I honor your intention, consider that withholding his name enables his company to create this dumb-ass situation over and over again.

Honestly, if I outed someone like this I would do it in anger and find the public service a good rationalization. But it is a rational response, and a valid one.

I'd be talking to Dad on Monday and leveraging the public dispersal of his name with $3000 of good will.

Some would call this negotiating, some blackmail. No funds by Tuesday, it's public service announcement day.

PayPal, credit card backup, or whatever may cover your butt, and I sure hope they do, but if this dealer won't step up to the plate, you will have no downside in that direction.

Sometimes, street justice is the way to go. This may be the first time or the tenth that it's happened with this guy. Have any of your own "Circle of Trust" asked for his name so they can protect himself?

In ancient times, during Teletype days, dealers would sometimes offer to sell another's check at a discount. This announced a shift to junk-bond status for the debt. Call it a short-term involuntary Chapter 11. Certified check required to continue to do any business with anyone on the TTY network.

How about a PM and email to Dad to check the boards here. Perhaps it will sharpen his mind.

Let's not call it blackmail. Just morally justifiable extortion. . . .

CharlotteDude · April 12, 2015 12:57AM

Col J - I like your style. We need to have a beer together sometime.

'dude

ColonelJessup · April 12, 2015 1:10AM

Been watching your moves for a while too. CSNS?

CharlotteDude · April 12, 2015 1:14AM

No sir, no Chicago for me this year. Timing wasn't right. I always hit the Baltimore shows though, so maybe we dance then?

cheers,

'dude

BAJJERFAN · April 12, 2015 1:39AM

<< Riddle me this... Does a moron know what a box is?...

While I don't want this thread to digress to slinging ugly names or comments, I will admit I did audibly express some colorful commentary about the seller when the postman confirmed the package had been shipped without insurance.

'dude >>

You can readily tell from the amount paid that it wasn't insured.

BAJJERFAN · April 12, 2015 1:41AM

<< 

<< Just to confirm, the seller did state via PM that he would ship the coins insured w/signature confirmation. Unfortunately, that didn't happen.

'dude >>

He may have private insurance. >>

Or the seller wasn't the shipper.

BryceM · April 12, 2015 1:46AM

Ugly situation. Frustrating.

It's fine for the seller to assume a bit of shipping risk, but it isn't fine for them to sidestep responsibility when an issue arises.

In the end you'll be fine, one way or another. Worst-case scenario is that you end up doing a charge-back from your CC.

I would echo the suggestion to use a PO box though. Most of these weird situations seem to happen while the package is out wandering the world, cold, hungry, naked, and afraid. When they're sitting on a nice warm shelf at the PO they don't seem to go "missing" or have "accidents" quite so often.

Baley · April 12, 2015 1:51AM

Best of luck on recovering the funds or coins, it's a shame that the package was weakly wrapped and wasn't insured, and the seller's" his side" and "we'll see" makes me uncomfortable, they read as if this were a set-up for a scam from the start.

don't know that a PO box would have mattered in this particular case, but getting one was one of the best things I've done with regards to coins (the SDB being another).. nothing "coin" comes to the home address, nothing "coin" is on display at the house, and very little of "coin" value is kept at home.

coin22lover · April 12, 2015 1:54AM

It's ridiculous to ship expensive coins in envelopes like that. I've never understood why it's so hard to use a box.

derryb · April 12, 2015 1:58AM

closer look at the pic indicates it very likely was a defective bubble wrap envelope that parted on the edge. Always tape the edges of bubble envelopes containing coins.

Also note that seller would probably not win a regular first class mail claim involving what the PO would most likely call bullion. The only USPS method that covers bullion is registered first class or registered priority mail. Anything valued at $3000 should have shipped registered, bullion or not.

themaster · April 12, 2015 2:34AM

Pour packaging job at the least. I don't mail enough bubble mailers to know the answer, but the $5.40 postage should indicate the original weight of the contents. Is this in line with what was suppose to be in the package?

Have a Great Day!
Louis

Bochiman · April 12, 2015 2:35AM

A few observations from reading this thread:

* That sucks. Very glad you saw the mailman and handled things with him right there and no one else met the mailman and signed for it. You did things the right way.
* Situation could have been avoided by the sender in a few ways: Box, as stated, or even what I do...that is to use registered mail tape around all sides of manila envelopes and also across the back (I have received a manila envelope where someone sliced a thin slit in the back-middle and removed a large cent from the package...was obviously a person and not an accident).
* No insurance (private or USPS) means that sender took the risk and "self-insured". It sucks, for him, but it isn't on you. Sender thinks anything else and they have a problem.
* Agree that it could have been a defective envelope, but it may have also been jostled too much and the coins just popped out......USPS may have them in the lost/found (whatever they call it) if an honest person found them in a bin/on the floor and turned them in. Cert #s and talking to the post master general may help. Still shouldn't be anything on you....sender should do it.

Good luck.

Connecticoin · April 12, 2015 2:41AM

That just sucks. But it appears the seller did not package the coins properly and did not insure, so hopefully the OP will get a refund.

This just highlights that you have to package coins securely appropriate to the value! (i.e. in threaded packing tape for coins worth several thousand dollars!). Even for cheap coins in bubble envelopes, I tape then securely so they are difficult to pilfer. On occasion I will receive coins worth several hundred dollars in a bubble envelope with just the adhesive on the flap securing the contents -- not prudent risk management! Some clear packing tape on the flap goes a long way toward preventing losses! Also, on the small priority boxes, I tape over the "rip cord" that opens the box - I bet a lot of these are pilfered using the "rip cord"!

puffer · April 12, 2015 3:06AM

First class parcels are processed by mechanical sorting machines where stuff sometimes gets lost. I did a claim with their lost and found office in Atlanta, I'm still waiting for the certified H10c to turn up that cost me $500. I haven't heard of any thefts ("shrinkage") in quite a while. Many major auction companies ship certified in flat parcels, usually priority, always insured. There was a scam on the currency site where someone on ebay "sold" a $1000 note and insured the package for $3000 if memory serves. But the guy likely shipped air, who knows for sure?

TwoSides2aCoin · April 12, 2015 3:20AM

It's easy to love the Colonel.

Sometimes I want to unleash.

BAJJERFAN · April 12, 2015 3:26AM

<< Many major auction companies ship certified in flat parcels, usually priority, always insured. >>

In all honesty, I haven't been REQUIRED to sign for a Heritage package since Moby Dick was a minnow.

ProofArtworkonCircs · April 12, 2015 3:37AM

Any chance that the coins wore through the envelope at the last stages of delivery (One coin still in the envelope, envelope not resealed)? Did anybody check the floor of the truck?
I had a situation like that once. The postman had given the loose coins to somebody else, but he retrieved them for me.

TomB · April 12, 2015 3:40AM

You should be fine and refunded quickly, but of course that does not lessen the aggravation. I learned many years ago not to ship coins in a bubble mailer as I once shipped a pair of coins to a PCGS board member and used a bubble mailer. The mailer arrived, but it had a gash, slit, slash, rip or whatever along one end and one of the two coins was missing. Obviously, I refunded the buyer immediately and then the USPS refunded me because I had taken out insurance. Since then, I only ship in boxes, require signatures for all my packages and only use my own dealer insurance.

In this case it is clear that no USPS insurance was purchased and private insurance was highly unlikely as well. My opinion is that you should share the user name with others because this is unacceptable seller behavior.

lunytune2 · April 12, 2015 4:23AM

Yes , share so one of us don't buy his current offering and get shoddy shipping methods.

bestday · April 12, 2015 4:29AM

<< If Paypal doesn't make you whole contact your Credit Card company.

I think you'll be OK in the end. >>

If paypal gives you the run around ,just dispute the transaction with CC .. Amex works the fastest

......always pay with a CC , that is the best guarantee of a good transaction

bestday · April 12, 2015 4:34AM

<< Thanks Broadstruck - that would be my next course of action if Paypal fails to honor its buyer's protection policy here. Has anyone had such an experience where Paypal didn't protect the buyer in a situation like this? I was told the dispute process would take until 1 May, to which I protested, due to over $3000 now being held hostage. They offered an escalation, to which I promptly requested. The escalation process is supposed to take 10 days - still frustrating, but better than having to wait over 3 weeks.

What gets me is that the seller (which for all I know was probably the young man all along) knew he was sending the package uninsured, apparently to save a few bucks. That gamble ended up going bad, and he knows it, yet he informs me that he has a "side of the story" and that we would have to wait to see "what happens" with Paypal. All I know, is that as a seller, if the merchandise I received money for doesn't reach the buyer, it is on ME to promptly refund the buyer, not go through a Paypal dispute process. It would be on me, as the seller, to file for recompense with the USPS for the lost merchandise, and not try to absolve myself of responsibility for reimbursing the buyer. This causes me to question the integrity of the seller.

'dude >>

BST is becoming a minefield for deals this year ....1st was silver eagle taking $350 without delivering the coins , another was a seller sending worthless coins to buyer instead, of the Morgans purchased ,,now this .. probably some others just not wanting lime light

keyman64 · April 12, 2015 4:43AM

Terrible situation. I feel confidently that you will be made whole, one way or another. I too like CJ's style.

Good luck!

SaorAlba · April 12, 2015 4:55AM

I am ashamed that the circle of trust here has been violated again. I have done five figure deals here both buying and selling and have never had problems.

If the seller doesn't make good, out them - so we can tar and feather them.

ShadyDave · April 12, 2015 5:00AM

Pitchfork at the ready, whats the username?

__________
__________}________________
__________}

BAJJERFAN · April 12, 2015 5:04AM

<< I hope you get your money refunded soon.

It's stories like this (which seem to happen regularly) as to why I have not done a deal here in probably over 10 years. Once again, for all the bad mouthing of ebay that goes on around here, problem transactions have to be EXPONENTIALLY higher on deals done here than on ebay. >>

I have yet to have a deal gone awry on either venue. One here I was a little disappointed in, but otherwise A-OK!

SamByrd · April 12, 2015 5:30AM

this issue is not indicative on the BST. I myself still would buy and sell like I always have.

I always use a box for slabs period. I do self insure many items but pack very safe.

This transaction is bad for both parties involved the insufficient and unsafe packaging was chosen by the seller or sellers agent.
The items were not delivered , the buyer should be made whole based on that aspect no delivery therefor no completion of the contract.

The fault for non delivery can be debated but the seller is the one who is responsible 100% for complete delivery, insurance only protects the seller he is the owner of said property until it is delivered. The seller elected to pack in such a manner and also ship the way he did apparently with out insurance. Sad thing is a small flat rate box with that same bubble envelope in side and secure taped edges the risk would of been far lower and the cost would not be much more at all.

There is a possibility that the loose items may be found in the mail stream as the envelope may of came open in the sorting machine it is rare but now and then lost items are located.

RYK · April 12, 2015 6:46AM

Bummer that it happened, but you have nothing to worry about re: the payment you sent.

I agree with the others that the seller should be revealed. The other forum members need to know when they are dealing with kids and when they are dealing with adults. I have been fooled on more than one occasion.

sparky64 · April 12, 2015 7:36AM

Classy:

<< While I won't ID him here on the open forum (I consider it bad form), I will provide his ID via PM, upon request, if he doesn't make this right by tomorrow morning 9:00 am EST. >>

Missing Gold - PAYPAL Making it Right

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