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1817/3 CBH die state thread...should there be a "b" state? Bring your images!
jayPem
Posts: 4,050 ✭✭✭✭✭
I am of the opinion that the already amazing 1817/3 bust half does in fact have three distinct die states, and since I now have three great images (Lance ) to illustrate my point,
I can go ahead and lay out my case for you....
Example #1....O-101
The early state, no major cracks or clashes yet, nice crisp overdate and eagle head....
Example #2....O-101a
Intermediate die state, many clash marks have appeared, as well as the large reverse die crack from 50c up through the left field. The overdate is still strong as is the eagle's head.
Example #3....O-101?
Now we have what I propose to call the "b" state! Attempts have been made to lap away some of the obverse clashing, resulting in a weakened overdate, But, now we have a cool new obverse clash, UNITED has appeared under stars 9-13! On the reverse, the large crack has become heavy, and most importantly, the eagle's head has been almost entirely lapped off....
So there you have it...I'm not sure if there is any real cause to create an official "b" state here, but it is perhaps an interesting thing to discuss....
Maybe we can come up with more images of the various in-between states ?
Oh yeah, thanks to Dizzyfoxx and LVGT for letting me use their coins in this thread!
I can go ahead and lay out my case for you....
Example #1....O-101
The early state, no major cracks or clashes yet, nice crisp overdate and eagle head....
Example #2....O-101a
Intermediate die state, many clash marks have appeared, as well as the large reverse die crack from 50c up through the left field. The overdate is still strong as is the eagle's head.
Example #3....O-101?
Now we have what I propose to call the "b" state! Attempts have been made to lap away some of the obverse clashing, resulting in a weakened overdate, But, now we have a cool new obverse clash, UNITED has appeared under stars 9-13! On the reverse, the large crack has become heavy, and most importantly, the eagle's head has been almost entirely lapped off....
So there you have it...I'm not sure if there is any real cause to create an official "b" state here, but it is perhaps an interesting thing to discuss....
Maybe we can come up with more images of the various in-between states ?
Oh yeah, thanks to Dizzyfoxx and LVGT for letting me use their coins in this thread!
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Edited to add: Eagle's head doesn't appear lapped, just poorly struck up.
It's certainly cool looking, wish I had one in that state. I guess something else to look for.
Thanks for the picture review.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
These are maybe not the most ideal images for the truly prime 101, or a more fully developed 101a, but I do believe that those are the right designations for the two coins.
Hopefully we'll get more images soon that really help illustrate the progress from start to finish !
Lanlord and slumlord (and Lordmarcovan too, if he's interested)...I have seen several examples of this die state. There are quite a few in the Heritage archives as a matter of fact.
The missing eagle head shows up more frequently than the UNITED clash, but that could be because it might have been removed from the die and the die still used for awhile, who knows...
I don't see a "b" die state listed on the BHNC listing of die states.
zap
102 capped bust half dollars - 100 die marriages
BHNC #198
I'll add it for the conversation.
That's exactly what the thread needs... images that tell a part of the story.
This is still the 101 variety, no die crack yet, but obviously displaying some serious clashing. Those clash marks we're probably lapped off pretty quickly, since it's not very common to see the banner clashed to the left of the bust...or else it took a really excellent strike like this to make them show up ?
The reverse crack is there, and the most commonly seen clash marks too. High grade examples like yours and SmEagle1795's are much better for studying these !
Hopefully we'll get a few more....
The die lump under star 13 is gone, the one inside 0 in 50 is faint. Most of the second die crack above UNITED is present.
BHNC member # 184!
http://www.busthalfaddict.com
Of course there's no way I could tell what actually happened to the 17/3 reverse, just a hunch, something to talk about
It's cool to see that the die defects are strong on yours ( left of star 13, between 5 and 0, inside 0)
All these pics are great for trying to figure out how those lumps appeared and disappeared...my three coins may all be a bit too worn to be super helpful....
What's your thought on the eagle head ? Lapped away or poorly struck ?
(If someone can post these here it would be helpful!)
1817/3 NGC25
<< <i>Dave, that one is getting to be pretty late....
What's your thought on the eagle head ? Lapped away or poorly struck ? >>
For mine they had lapped both dies prior to striking this one. As I had mentioned the die lumps have been removed, as well as clashes. Rather weak detail both sides.
Not sure it just isn't strike on yours or if it is lapping. Going by the stars, mine appears to be slightly later. Overton mentions the second reverse crack as an indication of being the final die state which also suggest mine after yours.
BHNC member # 184!
http://www.busthalfaddict.com
And, just for fun, jayPem's clashed stars in example #3.
Lance.
Lance.
I like it any way.
I was hoping we might get a couple more weak struck/lapped eagles head pieces here from members collections.
Might need to dig some up
Here's another with the clashed letters and what appears to be the weak eagle head Text
And another with the clash and weak head Viola
Clashed stars, weak head, better grade...AU50
Hard to say if there is any evidence here of lapping versus weak strike on the eagles head....would be great to see a real high grade example.
Those are some great examples, Jordy. How about posting the pix to this thread? The last one has a clear LDS reverse crack through UNITE.
Lance.
I'm pretty sure the NGC coin was already linked on page one, but here they all are. On a side note, collectivecoin makes it super easy to link these pics (once I got a little help from scubafuel..)
Of course, the differences could be due to strike pressure as well.
Or perhaps one heavy lapping, and then varying strike pressures afterward created variety of different looking heads...but how will we ever know ?
Just for fun here is another 101a (photos by Lance)
BHNC member # 184!
http://www.busthalfaddict.com