Package from BST: another thief?

jclovescoins · March 25, 2015 5:54AM

I am not going to post the member's name as I am giving them until tomorrow at 9am to refund me in full or I will take legal action.

Here's the story -

I purchased a 78-CC and a 81-CC Morgan, both in UNC from the BST. I paid $600 via Paypal gift and mailed a twenty cent piece in Fine condition we valued at $150.

After delaying mailing the package to me for a few days, the member sent me a tracking number. His reasons for delaying seemed suspicious and he also made his profile here private after our deal (so that one cant tell when he is on, etc.). I took a screenshot of the original BST deal so I have that to show the police even though he deleted it from here. I also took a video of opening the package today as it did not feel heavy enough to contain two Morgans and things were felt jingling inside. The package was not messed with in any way and the postage label is clearly shown above the tape on the envelope.

Inside the package I found two nickels, a quarter, another quarter in a large dollar-sized holder and a presidential dollar in a large dollar-sized holder. So, basically I received $1.60. I am out $750 - $1.60 = $748.40.

Since I paid by Paypal gift, I don't know if I have any recourse with Paypal. However, I have every intention to take this through every avenue of law enforcement I can until I am refunded. If he is seeing this, I suggest that he refund me the $748.40 by tomorrow morning or I will share his information publicly so that no one else becomes victimized as well as contacting the authorities that are local to him.

Beware of paying Paypal gift, even if someone has a few references and seems to be honest based on past things they posted. I cant see any way this could be an honest mistake, but I am hoping that he will be a man and refund me promptly.

And although the payment is commonly referred to as Paypal gift, Paypal refers to it as a personal payment and it is not against their rules. (See this thread: http://forums.collectors.com/messageview.cfm?catid=26&threadid=938171&highlight_key=y). It is also clearly not a gift when there is a purchase transaction that is noted with payment.

Any suggestions?

PerryHall · March 25, 2015 6:08AM

<< I am not going to post the member's name as I am giving them until tomorrow at 9am to refund me in full or I will take legal action.

Here's the story -

I purchased a 78-CC and a 81-CC Morgan, both in UNC from the BST. I paid $600 via Paypal gift and mailed a twenty cent piece in Fine condition we valued at $150.

After delaying mailing the package to me for a few days, the member sent me a tracking number. His reasons for delaying seemed suspicious and he also made his profile here private after our deal (so that one cant tell when he is on, etc.). I took a screenshot of the original BST deal so I have that to show the police even though he deleted it from here. I also took a video of opening the package today as it did not feel heavy enough to contain two Morgans and things were felt jingling inside. The package was not messed with in any way and the postage label is clearly shown above the tape on the envelope.

Inside the package I found two nickels, a quarter, another quarter in a large dollar-sized holder and a presidential dollar in a large dollar-sized holder. So, basically I received $1.60. I am out $750 - $1.60 = $748.40.

Since I paid by Paypal gift, I don't know if I have any recourse with Paypal. However, I have every intention to take this through every avenue of law enforcement I can until I am refunded. If he is seeing this, I suggest that he refund me the $748.40 by tomorrow morning or I will share his information publicly so that no one else becomes victimized as well as contacting the authorities that are local to him.

Beware of paying Paypal gift, even if someone has a few references and seems to be honest based on past things they posted. I cant see any way this could be an honest mistake, but I am hoping that he will be a man and refund me promptly.

Any suggestions? >>

Since this was a personal payment that PP didn't profit from it's unlikely you will get any help from PP. This is a perfect example why you should never use PPG to make any purchase especially from someone you don't personally know and totally trust. I do hope things work out for you though.

JamesMurray · March 25, 2015 6:09AM

<< In my opinion, situations like this call for naming names so other members have a clue as to whether they want to deal with this person or not. I fully realize that your refund is somewhat possibly contingent on remaining silent so I do appreciate that as well. >>

It's not difficult at all to see who the seller is , posts can not be deleted entirely by a member. The content can be edited out but the post remains. Paying by gift to a seller with no track history here was a mistake.

Bankerbob56 · March 25, 2015 6:10AM

<< 

<< I am not going to post the member's name as I am giving them until tomorrow at 9am to refund me in full or I will take legal action.

Here's the story -

I purchased a 78-CC and a 81-CC Morgan, both in UNC from the BST. I paid $600 via Paypal gift and mailed a twenty cent piece in Fine condition we valued at $150.

After delaying mailing the package to me for a few days, the member sent me a tracking number. His reasons for delaying seemed suspicious and he also made his profile here private after our deal (so that one cant tell when he is on, etc.). I took a screenshot of the original BST deal so I have that to show the police even though he deleted it from here. I also took a video of opening the package today as it did not feel heavy enough to contain two Morgans and things were felt jingling inside. The package was not messed with in any way and the postage label is clearly shown above the tape on the envelope.

Inside the package I found two nickels, a quarter, another quarter in a large dollar-sized holder and a presidential dollar in a large dollar-sized holder. So, basically I received $1.60. I am out $750 - $1.60 = $748.40.

Since I paid by Paypal gift, I don't know if I have any recourse with Paypal. However, I have every intention to take this through every avenue of law enforcement I can until I am refunded. If he is seeing this, I suggest that he refund me the $748.40 by tomorrow morning or I will share his information publicly so that no one else becomes victimized as well as contacting the authorities that are local to him.

Beware of paying Paypal gift, even if someone has a few references and seems to be honest based on past things they posted. I cant see any way this could be an honest mistake, but I am hoping that he will be a man and refund me promptly.

Any suggestions? >>

By using PPG to circumvent paypal fees, you have no right to expect any help from PP. It was a gift after all. This is a perfect example why you should never use PPG to make any purchase especially from someone you don't personally know. I do hope things work out for you though. >>

My previous allegation that using PPG may be considered stealing from Paypal, was based on my misperception of Paypal. A recent post by Professor Harold Hill would indicate otherwise. My apologies to the OP in public, as well via a PM....

jclovescoins · March 25, 2015 6:12AM

See this thread: http://forums.collectors.com/messageview.cfm?catid=26&threadid=938171&highlight_key=y.

Although commonly referred to as a Paypal "gift", it is not as you are claiming. I will have recourse as it is a personal payment and I specified in the "Notes" section that it was payment for 78-CC and 81-CC Morgans.

dib · March 25, 2015 6:31AM

Very smart thinking to take a video of you opening the package. Every piece of evidence helps prove your case!

JamesMurray · March 25, 2015 6:34AM

Personal payment

Id have a look at this link , it talks about personal payments about halfway down.

PerryHall · March 25, 2015 6:38AM

<< Very smart thinking to take a video of you opening the package. Every piece of evidence helps prove your case! >>

I'm guessing the OP was suspicious of the seller to take this step of making a video of the opening the package.

JamesMurray · March 25, 2015 6:42AM

<< 

<< Very smart thinking to take a video of you opening the package. Every piece of evidence helps prove your case! >>

I'm guessing the OP was suspicious of the seller to take this step of making a video of the opening the package. >>

Wonder if the seller has anything to say <insert popcorn emoticon here>

BAJJERFAN · March 25, 2015 6:45AM

<< See this thread: http://forums.collectors.com/messageview.cfm?catid=26&threadid=938171&highlight_key=y.

Although commonly referred to as a Paypal "gift", it is not as you are claiming. I will have recourse as it is a personal payment and I specified in the "Notes" section that it was payment for 78-CC and 81-CC Morgans. >>

You're still SOL as far as any remedy thru PayPal.

I doubt that your local PD will do anything other than take your report.

As Bruce Williams was fond of saying, "Get out the ketchup because you're probly gonna eat it."

Sonorandesertrat · March 25, 2015 6:45AM

Given what was in that package, it does seem like a deliberate act. That boy's got some splainin' to do.

Timbuk3 · March 25, 2015 6:48AM

Can someone help me get my post updated. I may
have information that may help jclovescoins. I can't
seem to find it and get it updated. Post was by me,
timbuk3

thanks !!!

jclovescoins · March 25, 2015 6:49AM

I am not going to contact my local PD, I am going to contact his local sheriff's office and the postal inspector.

BAJJERFAN · March 25, 2015 6:51AM

<< I am not going to contact my local PD, I am going to contact his local sheriff's office and the postal inspector. >>

Is he the burger flipper from Tacoma perchance?

epcjimi1 · March 25, 2015 6:51AM

<< Can someone help me get my post updated. I may
have information that may help jclovescoins. I can't
seem to find it and get it updated. Post was by me,
timbuk3

thanks !!! >>

I'm guessing you mean this

Text

Timbuk3 · March 25, 2015 6:54AM

That's it !!!

thanks epcjimi1

silverpop · March 25, 2015 6:55AM

hello

do you think this person cares about what you do or don't do?

and really threats are a bad move

jclovescoins · March 25, 2015 6:56AM

There is no threat in anything I said and the person should certainly care as they stole money, and I am offering them a chance to return it before law enforcement is contacted.

Timbuk3 · March 25, 2015 6:57AM

Sorry epcjimi1, wrong one.
Looking for the thread that
was posted on the coin forum
by me (Timbuk3)

Thanks !!!

lunytune2 · March 25, 2015 7:01AM

This one ?

http://forums.collectors.com/messageview.cfm?catid=26&threadid=935472&highlight_key=y

Bochiman · March 25, 2015 7:10AM

Good luck.
If it is the jabbss one, which is looking likely, I would have stayed far away anyway. Just something about the posting style that didn't sit well with me on a trust level.
I saw the different posts in the BST and it just didn't look like something I wanted to deal with.

When I deal with BSTers, I look to see how active they are in other forums (USCF, World Coins, Registry Forum) and what they seem to talk about/handle. It helps me decide.

Also, while I won't refuse a PPG as a payment TO me, I won't bother with people that ONLY want it when I am the buyer. I have used it, and I have paid the fees myself. There are people I do trust. There are those that I don't know but believe I would trust. Bottom line is that, outside of some type of trust, I won't do it.

streeter · March 25, 2015 7:11AM

Is your seller the guy who stated he was LEO in twin cities?

PP for commercial sellers is 2.2%. Any seller who is too thrifty to offer that protection to a buyer is almost always a bad risk.

dib · March 25, 2015 7:13AM

<< 

<< Very smart thinking to take a video of you opening the package. Every piece of evidence helps prove your case! >>

I'm guessing the OP was suspicious of the seller to take this step of making a video of the opening the package. >>

Of course that's the reason he did, but he could have easily opened the package anyway without taking a video of it. If he took a good detailed video of him opening the package, at least he has proof of the scam.

>>

do you think this person cares about what you do or don't do?

and really threats are a bad move >>

How is contacting his local sheriff's office and the postal inspector a "threat". The guy's out $748.40, of course he needs to take action to get his money back.

Timbuk3 · March 25, 2015 7:14AM

Can you give me a link, lunytune2 ?

Thanks !!!

BAJJERFAN · March 25, 2015 7:19AM

<< Can you give me a link, lunytune2 ?

Thanks !!! >>

linktforyourconvenience

GRANDAM · March 25, 2015 7:21AM

From The PayPal Site:

Items purchased off eBay:
Items are eligible unless they are excluded below:
Real estate, motor vehicles, capital equipment, travel tickets, and events tickets
Intangible items
Services
Items purchased using PayPal Payments Pro or Virtual Terminal
You may not file a dispute for a Personal Payment

GrandAm

JohnnyCache · March 25, 2015 7:26AM

thread id = 935472

LindeDad · March 25, 2015 7:26AM

Hech I've known GrandAm for ten years and we did a deal last week and we paid the fees.

You never know when things head south.

AMRC · March 25, 2015 7:35AM

Sorry to hear this, But I do not know how this happens in this day and age. Clearly this is not a well-known board member? I chuckle to think it will ever come to ANYONE that can do anything about this actually watching your video.

Please, anyone, share your stories about when taking a video of opening a package ever helped with your case?

Good luck with the Law. Unless you know someone in the area where he lives, my guess is this will not go very far.

sparky64 · March 25, 2015 7:37AM

That's a shame and wish you the best.

Not sure why all the links to Timbuk3's deal gone bad.
Are they related somehow?

djdilliodon · March 25, 2015 7:39AM

If you have the sellers real address his local PD will pay him a visit! Few years ago I had something go south which was a $300 deal. The local PD of the seller paid him a visit and got my stuff back! Just have all your proof ready to go and as long as you have a valid address, I think it will work out for you.

DollarAfterDollar · March 25, 2015 7:39AM

My sense is that PayPal will not provide a sympathetic ear. They might be able to freeze funds in his account so contacting them might be advisable. The possibility the cash is still there seems small however. Similarly, you can stop a payment in PayPal if it hasn't been accepted. That PayPal account belongs to somebody, The cops should be able to find out easy enough.

At the moment you have been clearly defrauded and have taken steps to prove it. I'm not reading where you contacted Seller and he told you to scratch, so is it correct to assume he's avoiding you? Notify the local authorities and see what they say, can't hurt.

Do you have a name and address?

Timbuk3 · March 25, 2015 7:40AM

That's the thread, thanks !!! :-)

JamesMurray · March 25, 2015 7:44AM

<< That's a shame and wish you the best.

Not sure why all the links to Timbuk3's deal gone bad.
Are they related somehow? >>

I don't think there is a connection , from what is in the BST it's a different guy , Bochimon got it in one , ironic the guy claimed in Timbuks thread while screaming blue murder at another shyster that he was somehow associated with his local LEO's

jclovescoins · March 25, 2015 7:46AM

Someone that claims to be associated with a law enforcement organization is certainly someone that will be known to them, I would think. Either way, I'm sure they will appreciate his claim to be associated. I have taken a screenshot of all of that as well in case I need it.

giorgio11 · March 25, 2015 7:50AM

<< Good luck.
If it is the jabbss one, which is looking likely, I would have stayed far away anyway. Just something about the posting style that didn't sit well with me on a trust level.
I saw the different posts in the BST and it just didn't look like something I wanted to deal with.

When I deal with BSTers, I look to see how active they are in other forums (USCF, World Coins, Registry Forum) and what they seem to talk about/handle. It helps me decide.

Also, while I won't refuse a PPG as a payment TO me, I won't bother with people that ONLY want it when I am the buyer. I have used it, and I have paid the fees myself. There are people I do trust. There are those that I don't know but believe I would trust. Bottom line is that, outside of some type of trust, I won't do it. >>

OK, so I am just going to say this. I won't refuse PayPal Gift (and some customers do pay me that way, that is their call), but I certainly never specify it as a form of payment. It's not a gift, it's a payment for goods. I don't like PayPal at all and I DESPISE and will not deal with eBay, but PayPal is a fact of life. They perform a service in getting money to me, and they deserve to get paid. To try to circumvent that, to me it feels like stealing. I am not judging anybody else or saying anyone else should do anything at all, but to me the charge of what, 2.9%, is a cost of doing business and a tax deduction. And sure, I'll take your check and would prefer that. Just sayin'. And I don't buy from people who only specify PPG, although I have found that most people will certainly take my check as well.

I hope the OP gets made whole, and quickly.

Best Regards,

George

JamesMurray · March 25, 2015 7:59AM

<< Someone that claims to be associated with a law enforcement organization is certainly someone that will be known to them, I would think. Either way, I'm sure they will appreciate his claim to be associated. I have taken a screenshot of all of that as well in case I need it. >>

I wouldn't put a lot of stock in what he said about being associated with LEO , unless of course he meant on the other side of the cell door.

greghansen · March 25, 2015 7:59AM

Deleting my comments and observations as I concluded that they would not be helpful in assisting OP recover his money. PM sent to OP instead.

GoldenEyeNumismatics · March 25, 2015 8:00AM

You have no recourse with Paypal if you paid via Gift.

JamesMurray · March 25, 2015 8:08AM

<< Deleting my comments and observations as I concluded that they would not be helpful in assisting OP recover his money. PM sent to OP instead. >>

Pretty much what i'm sure a lot of us are thinking though. For years now anything over 500 i insist gets sent signature required and i open it in front of a thankfully patient mailman. He doesnt need to see what's in there , just know that i'm ok with what is.

jclovescoins · March 25, 2015 8:11AM

I have the video and will be sharing it with the fraudster and the police tomorrow.

JamesMurray · March 25, 2015 8:16AM

<< I have the video and will be sharing it with the fraudster and the police tomorrow. >>

Honestly , i'd pap it up on youtube and share it here , there are genuine LEO and Lawyers not to mention guys with experience , if there's anything about the video that might not fly you'd do well to go in pre armed knowledge wise.

jclovescoins · March 25, 2015 8:19AM

I took a video showing the front and back of the package before it was opened. I cut it with a scissors and it was shown at all times. I showed there was nothing else inside the package. I opened up the cardboard the coins were inside and showed them on the camera. Everything was seen as I looked at it on the camera.

Broadstruck · March 25, 2015 8:29AM

jclovescoins, Really sorry to hear as I've done multiple transactions with roughly 200 members and have never had a problem.

Not sure how much the local PD will do but do go see your Postal Inspector as USPS doesn't play around with mail fraud and will make the sellers life a living hell.

JamesMurray · March 25, 2015 8:39AM

Why the hesitancy to name the seller ? In all fairness i think most of us would understand and perhaps support that if we had bought 2 CC dollars and got 2 nickels in the mail. It serves two purposes , it protects the unwary who may not know who you are talking about and may be in mid transaction with the same guy and it offers the right to reply to the seller when he see's his name up there in lights , does he in fact know of the situation ? You havnt mentioned if you had messaged or contacted him in any way , if you have , i apologize as i missed it. When a seller is outed for something like this he really doesn't deserve the protection of anonymity and a lack of a reply often if not always tells it's own story.

jclovescoins · March 25, 2015 8:48AM

I sent him the following message this afternoon immediately after receiving the package, and he has not responded:

"I strongly suggest you mail me the two Morgan dollars: 78-CC and 81-CC. The package that I just received was video taped while being opened and was not messed with in any way. It has two nickels, a quarter, another quarter in a holder and a presidential dollar in a holder. The police in Lake Elmo, MN will be contacted tomorrow morning if I am not refunded $750 USD to my Paypal account by 9am tomorrow morning. "

I will give his name tomorrow morning. He has nothing else up for sale and has not commented on anything since he defrauded me.

JamesMurray · March 25, 2015 8:52AM

<< I sent him the following message this afternoon immediately after receiving the package, and he has not responded:

"I strongly suggest you mail me the two Morgan dollars: 78-CC and 81-CC. The package that I just received was video taped while being opened and was not messed with in any way. It has two nickels, a quarter, another quarter in a holder and a presidential dollar in a holder. The police in Lake Elmo, MN will be contacted tomorrow morning if I am not refunded $750 USD to my Paypal account by 9am tomorrow morning. "

I will give his name tomorrow morning. He has nothing else up for sale and has not commented on anything since he defrauded me. >>

If he had multiple items for sell , maybe .... just maybe ... although i strongly agree with Bochimons gut feeling .. maybe he mis labelled the packages and there's a mix up. There's a ray of hope ...or an out for the seller .. if he want's to comment. Most of us know by now who it is.

Broadstruck · March 25, 2015 8:52AM

<< I sent him the following message this afternoon immediately after receiving the package, and he has not responded:

"I strongly suggest you mail me the two Morgan dollars: 78-CC and 81-CC. The package that I just received was video taped while being opened and was not messed with in any way. It has two nickels, a quarter, another quarter in a holder and a presidential dollar in a holder. The police in Lake Elmo, MN will be contacted tomorrow morning if I am not refunded $750 USD to my Paypal account by 9am tomorrow morning. "

I will give his name tomorrow morning. He has nothing else up for sale and has not commented on anything since he defrauded me. >>

Forget about getting the coins at this point as that deal was spoiled... You want your funds back asap!

jclovescoins · March 25, 2015 8:59AM

I don't think the Morgans exist. I want refunded, I have messaged him to clarify. I found a thread on another coin forum where this member was supposedly selling the same Morgans under the same name back in early 2014.

howards · March 25, 2015 9:00AM

This won't help the OP, but if you have to do a deal using Paypal personal payment, make it using a credit card (instead of drafting your bank account) and pay the fees yourself. That way you have recourse through a credit card chargeback.

streeter · March 25, 2015 9:11AM

Lake Elmo, Minnesota.

Package from BST: another thief?

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