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Request for a Grade - 1952 Super Bird Quarter...
Ethan
Posts: 315 ✭✭
Well I just bought me one and I am happy with it. Once in hand it does have a mild Cameo appearance but not sure it would make it. Still it is nice indeed. I have a few pictures, taken with different camera's (Not great pics but the best I can do).....please tell me what you think,
I am thinking 65/66....? What say you and why?
I am thinking 65/66....? What say you and why?
"A gun is like a parachute. If you need one, and don't have one, you'll probably never need one again.
“I want you to remember that no * ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb * die for his country”
“I want you to remember that no * ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb * die for his country”
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pretty example...hopefully it's a cherry pick that was a bargin too
are you to submit it to pcgs
and update us?
<< <i>I'd agree with 65. A few Q's. Your jumbo close up reverse--- Reverse Eagles left wing (your right) there appears a oval grainy/pitted looking area, is that just the pic >>
I think I have a closer look at this...
<< <i> Also GW's bust lower neck area there appears too be vertical hairlines. It could be nothing but it could indicate cleaning. >>
It is there are a few pictures. Looking at the coin in hand, I can not see how it could have been cleaned but you never know.
I think you may be right, of course these are magnified a bit......
“I want you to remember that no * ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb * die for his country”
<< <i>put me in the 65 cam crowdpretty example...hopefully it's a cherry pick that was a bargin too
Well those seem to be hairlines but I am not sure how they effect the grade of such an older coin. If you look behind his ponytail you will see more. Keep in mind that I am looking through this with a 40x Loupe. I see lots of imperfections when I do that.
Bargain? Well probably not . I bought a package deal of coin holders along with it. I value them around $25 so I guess $150 for the Bird. Still it is SO nice in hand. I compare it with my DCAM 64 and although not as good, it is close so that is why I think moderate cameo.
As for PCGS, probably not. I have yet to slab a coin. I would rather spend the $$ on more coins at this time anyway.
Here is my 64 that I consider a 66 or better..That is why I think this one is a 65, but maybe the hairlines kill it.
“I want you to remember that no * ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb * die for his country”
graders aren't using 40x ....3 of them only spend like 5 seconds or so looking at whole coin
i'm no pro if those frost breaks would hold back designation as there is some forgiveness i believe on older classics
i'm guilty of scrutinizing my coins way too much...my 15x loop is way more for grade concerns
hairlines...yup they'll catch the graders eyes
i still see a 65 cam...fields are no where close to deep...frost is an overall with my forgiveness
price point...sometimes it's the find over such if it was about $150 you're in on it
sweet example and thanks for sharing
by the way...i offer an honest less then pro opinion here
<< <i>Well those seem to be hairlines but I am not sure how they effect the grade of such an older coin. >>
i see a lot of die polishing lines obv and rev but i really don't see hairlines, although on these proofs, they are easy to pick up a few.
also some neat thread-like impressions on the eagle's left wing all but fully explaining the S on the chest.
pretty impressive on some proofs how radical the die polishing can be in the recessed devices.
.
interesting
First I do not think it is enhanced Tail Feathers as there are no lines as such in this picture,
Yeah it is for sure frost, and looks nice comparing it to that 64. I too get to close and notice things I probably shouldn't. I too thought it was at least mildly CAM. I am glad I am not the only one to see that. Trust me, it looks better in hand and if I could learn how to take good pictures of CAM coins I would. I have Kennedy's that are CAM but posting here gets the NOT CAM remarks and rightly so..
At $150, I think I did ok, it was one of the nicest I had seen and I did not really want to pay the extra $40 for the slabbed ones.
I appreciate your opinion, that is why we post here
As for the polishing lines, I did not think of that. That could very well be what I am seeing. How could I tell the difference? I am glad you mentioned that. If polishing lines, then it hurst the grade less I am sure than hairlines would. There are hairlines in the fields, at 20X you can see them but not too many.
Struck through Hair...yeah I noticed that also....I saved a picture from some thread somewhere that has another one like it.
“I want you to remember that no * ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb * die for his country”
honestly, the easiest way to differentiate is experience because not all die polishing marks and PLS are created equal. lots of variations.
die polishing marks are raised since they "cut" away metal from the die which is raised on the coin. PLS (parallel line scratches aka cleaning aka hairlines) are post-mint damage and cut into the coin surface so they are low. mountains and valleys.
so far, it looks like we could be up to half a dozen thread-like impressions for the reverse.
.
“I want you to remember that no * ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb * die for his country”
image size and quantity in threads can turn some off or on
i stay uniformed in...
singles...500 x 500
side by side of 1000 x 500
it fits thread format nice
It wouldn't surprise me if PCGS did not award the CAM on this one however as they are very conservative in granting that designation on these early proof, which is an indication of why they bring so much more with the designation.
<< <i>I compare it with my DCAM 64 and although not as good, it is close so that is why I think moderate cameo.
As for PCGS, probably not. I have yet to slab a coin. I would rather spend the $$ on more coins at this time anyway.
Here is my 64 that I consider a 66 or better..That is why I think this one is a 65, but maybe the hairlines kill it. >>
In your comments you've made reference to making comparisons to your other coins that you consider to be such and such grade or designation. Although you're entitled to your opinion, I'd again strongly encourage you to submit a couple of coins to PCGS for evaluation of your own grading skill to avoid overpaying for the coins you're purchasing. I think you did alright on this one at $150, but if it is a 65 non-cameo, you overpaid. I'm not trying to be a kill-joy just a realist, Keets was particularly blunt with me in my early days and I thank him for it today. I'll have a submission going in in a few weeks, if you'd like to tag a few coins along I'd be glad to do so for you.
with those reverse frost breaks I'm actually surprised that some members think Cameo. why is that??
Then again, I don't have a 1952 cameo quarter yet either.
If you use a piece of white paper as a background your camera's auto white balance will work better, which should result in your photos looking closer to true colors.
Coin Club Benefit auctions ..... View the Lots
<< <i>take no offence here when i offer ya this...
image size and quantity in threads can turn some off or on
i stay uniformed in...
singles...500 x 500
side by side of 1000 x 500
it fits thread format nice >>
I fully agree with the above statement.
If someone needs to post tons of images of the same coin, there's usually a reason tons are needed. In this coin's case, I can't pull my eyes off the many hairlines. I do not see this coin as a cameo.
I look at it this way --- I suppose you would say Cameo if you were sending it to be graded, would that be the "look" you'd want on a coin you were buying, designated as Cameo with very apparent frost breaks?? coins like this are why NGC uses the star.
<< <i>PCGS gave this one a 67. It was the only photo I could dig up. It may be that your macro shots are just too close and show more than is there. With the special 1/2 off variety it be nice to see how it would grade out. And I'm kinda seeing a cam appearance with your last 4 shots. >>
Yeah the close shots make it dirty for sure, that is fact. It is a nice nice coin with the naked eye.
I would like to grade it out, but at $40 it might not be a good move. I already paid $150 and although I think it is the bomb, NGC/PCGS might have a bad coffee day. I have compared it to my many slabbed proofs, it CAMS according to what I have CAMed in slabs. However the grade is the big question I have. Its a 52, it does not even look as good as the 64 I posted, it is close but just not quite there. I have over 30 64's and that one I posted is bar none the best.
Cam appearance would be an appropriate statement......I agree although I called it mildly CAM but basically we think the same.
<< <i>take no offence here when i offer ya this...image size and quantity in threads can turn some off or oni stay uniformed in...
singles...500 x 500
side by side of 1000 x 500
it fits thread format nice >>
Well I just uploaded to a picture sight, as I did not plan on posting that many but I was trying to answer questions...
<< <i>I'd be in the 64 or 65 CAM camp on your coin. I believe what's shown on the uber close-up shot of the obverse are die polish lines. I'd say so due to their "random" direction, which says die polish rather than hairlines to me. There do appear to be hairlines in the fields on several of the shots which is the reason for my grade. It wouldn't surprise me if PCGS did not award the CAM on this one however as they are very conservative in granting that designation on these early proof, which is an indication of why they bring so much more with the designation. >>
Well I thought 65 for sure with a shot at 66. But like you say, are they hairlines or polish lines. I have a lot to learn. I think there are hairlines but also polish lines. I know they are both tough to spot with the naked eye. As for CAM, I can not see how they could not looking at my halves I have slabbed (Bought that way for grading). But it is a quarter, a 52 quarter and I just do not know.
<< <i>n your comments you've made reference to making comparisons to your other coins that you consider to be such and such grade or designation. Although you're entitled to your opinion, I'd again strongly encourage you to submit a couple of coins to PCGS for evaluation of your own grading skill to avoid overpaying for the coins you're purchasing. I think you did alright on this one at $150, but if it is a 65 non-cameo, you overpaid. I'm not trying to be a kill-joy just a realist, Keets was particularly blunt with me in my early days and I thank him for it today. I'll have a submission going in in a few weeks, if you'd like to tag a few coins along I'd be glad to do so for you. >>
You make a good point and I can not disagree, but I am having fun and I wanted one of these. I saw many that were posted for $200 and this one beat them hands down IMHO. That being said, I should get some graded but then my coin money goes to the guy for 5 seconds of his time and I do not get a coin. I just do not trust it yet. Dealers get volume discounts, us little guys do not. IF I have to pay for than 10% the value to slab it, well I just can not do it ...yet. However, I think it fair to note, I have never sold a coin yet....still have em from when I was 12 and that might explain my skeptical attitude as I do not plan on selling anytime soon, that is for when I am dead I guess.
<< <i>I like the cameo contrast that the coin has. Is it enough for cameo? The far away shots look good, the close ups show a lot of shine through the frost. Because of that I'm thinking it would not cam. It's a premium coin because of the frost but again to me not a cameo. Most of these would grade 64 or 65, I'm feeling a 64 on this one. >>
Well we agree, it is a premium coin, of that I am confident in. As for CAM by PCGS, I just can not answer that one. I do however think it would get a 65 hands down, the 66 is my worry. Then again I am ignorant but that is why I am here...to learn.
<< <i>judging by the picture of the 1952 I would think a non-Cameo due to the reverse. Washington Quarters are notorious for reverse frost break in exactly the same place(s) as your coin, the wings near the body and at the joint further out. if PCGS designates this coin it is an absolute gift no matter how nice the obverse looks. if anything it will probably be graded "*" at NGC or "+" at PCGS. >>
Hey I would be happy with a NGC star...I bought my first Kennedy just so I could see what that meant. Now I know...the obverse was no doubt cam but the reverse was iffy. It made me sure of some of the halves I have posted here and been told NO CAM. It showed me that they were CAM, I just can not take a picture for crap. I can understand your line of thinking though. I might not agree with it, but I am learning.
<< <i>with those reverse frost breaks I'm actually surprised that some members think Cameo. why is that?? >>
Because they might have similar ones that did CAM? I mean it really is what brand of coffee these experts drink in the morning that determines the grade right? I can grade VF-EF, but when we get to MS/PR well that is where I just do not understand how some get it and some do not.
<< <i>Keets, I've actually seen those frost breaks on plenty of cameos. For one, the SMS series is plagued with the frost breaks, especially the 65, and a lot of those reside in cameo holders. Below are pictures of my 66 then my 67 quarters, both graded by PCGS as cameo. I would say that the 67 is lacking more frost. >>
Those are awesome quarters! But most of all the pictures show it...Nice coins btw. Mine is closer to the 66 but mine is not quite that good, close but not there.
<< <i>I fully agree with the above statement.If someone needs to post tons of images of the same coin, there's usually a reason tons are needed. In this coin's case, I can't pull my eyes off the many hairlines. I do not see this coin as a cameo. >>
Well all I can say to this is I try to take good pictures, I just suck at it. Hairlines? Well some here have said polish lines. I just do not know for sure. Either one can not really be seen with the naked eye. Does that make a difference?
<< <i>Here's a pcgs PR-67 if it'll help ya any. It's kinda hard to grade any coin from images. >>
The one thing I can say for sure is mine is not a 67, that thing is spectacular! Nice! Yes one can not grade 100% from a picture but there are pictures that do show a coin well, I just can not take one yet.
<< <i>And here's a reverse shot of a PCGS 66, former PCI 66CAM RT signature series: >>
NO offense, but I think my reverse is better, more cam than that one if it means anything...
<< <i>Speaking only for myself Keets, I said cameo because I believe the rest of the frost is very even and I think there'd be grace for the date. >>
Grace for the date? Hmm I never thought of that. I guess that would mean grace for SMS coins also...that is neat.
<< <i>I look at it this way --- I suppose you would say Cameo if you were sending it to be graded, would that be the "look" you'd want on a coin you were buying, designated as Cameo with very apparent frost breaks?? coins like this are why NGC uses the star. >>
Like I said, NGC Star or PCGS + would be ok, to me it is about the eye appeal and I am learning about cameos and I think this has a great shot at it, but even if it would not, it is so close it would still be considered a premium coin I would think.
Thanks for all the replies, I have been working so much that I can not respond as much as I would like but I enjoyed my time reading them and such. I think my blood pressure has dropped 25%. Coins are soothing to me....thanks again.
“I want you to remember that no * ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb * die for his country”
In your comments you've made reference to making comparisons to your other coins that you consider to be such and such grade or designation. Although you're entitled to your opinion, I'd again strongly encourage you to submit a couple of coins to PCGS for evaluation of your own grading skill to avoid overpaying for the coins you're purchasing. >>
You are correct here and I can not fault that line of thought. I could have over paid for sure, I just do not know. Ultimately I am happy with what I got.
<< <i> I think you did alright on this one at $150, but if it is a 65 non-cameo, you overpaid. >>
Well that is close to what I was thinking, at 66 I did great, if 65 CAM I did good, if 65 nonCAM then I broke even or lost. If I over paid, it was not by much maybe $25 or so, at least in my opinion but that is not worth crap.
<< <i>I'm not trying to be a kill-joy just a realist, Keets was particularly blunt with me in my early days and I thank him for it today. >>
yeah he has fussed at me too with some Kennedy posts, he knows his stuff of that I will not deny. Folks that is why I am here, to learn.
<< <i> I'll have a submission going in in a few weeks, if you'd like to tag a few coins along I'd be glad to do so for you. >>
What would you have in mind? PM me......( I would be willing to see, so I can learn and others could I just need the details)
“I want you to remember that no * ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb * die for his country”