Rumor has it the Anaconda Roanoke just got into a NGC67 holder.
truthteller
Posts: 1,240 ✭✭
And it's being offered at $22,500. Can anyone verify?
TRUTH
TRUTH
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Very impressive collection of dollars you have!
Frank
What a "nice" ending as well to that story.
Wondercoin.
Bryan (TBT) and I put together a report detailing the history on the coin. Many of the comments (both positive and negative) made by forum members were included.
I showed the coin one evening to Mark Salzburg at the Long Beach show and it was his conclusion after examining the piece that the toning was original. We submitted the coin the next day and it came back the following week in an NGC MS67 holder.
It's already changed hands again.
GSAGUY
link to earlier discussion here about the coin
link to thread where Tonekiller asked for input on the coin's history after purchasing the coin from Anaconda
New collectors, please educate yourself before spending money on coins; there are people who believe that using numismatic knowledge to rip the naïve is what this hobby is all about.
For some life lasts a short while, but the memories it holds last forever.
-Laura Swenson
In memory of BL, SM, and KG. 16 and forever young, rest in peace.
Did NGC give it a star?
No star......but they did give us a smile!
GSAGUY
Congrats TBT, a nice score.
Notwithstanding the incredible toning, when one examined carefully the history of the coin, one could only conclude that the coin's colors were original. Fellow board members such as ArtR and Rainbowroosie had both seen the coin MANY years ago and attested to the fact that it looked then, just as it does today. Also, after extensive notoriety, no one stepped forward and claimed to have known a coin doctor capable of producing such colors as far back as 1979 which is when ArtR first saw the coin.
We catalogued each negative pointed out by board members in the earlier thread and were able to find PCGS and NGC certified commems with similar toning patterns, etc. While we found none toned to the extent of this Roanoke, we did find a single Texas commem in a PCGS holder that looks remarkably like this piece. Granted, it's not tab-toned as are most Roanokes, but that does not automatically point to artificial toning.
I agree that if you do your homework and make a professional case to NGC, your chances of having such a piece certified are increased.
There will likely always be some who will question the authenticity of this particular coin's colors, but I for one believe it to be original.
GSAGUY
<< <i>This coin is a rip off. Anyone who buys it for $12,000 is making a huge mistake. >>
In and of itself, it would be an excellent chuckle in light of recent developments. But, the fact that it was directed at the guy who bought the coin makes it a gut-buster!
TBT,
Huge congratulations for your willingness to take the risk! You epitomize the adage "no balls, no blue chips!"
Russ, NCNE
NOTE: No trees were killed in the sending of this message. However, a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.
Type collector since 1981
Current focus 1855 date type set
Technically, provenance was traced back to 1979 when it was purchased by a dealer-friend of ArtR's and Art saw the coin at that time. The dealer who purchased the coin claimed he bought it from the son of an Army Colonel who had put the coin away back in the 40's. While we talked to the dealer that bought the coin in 1979, we weren't able (nor did we try) to trace it back any further than that.
However, by confirming with ArtR that the coin looked in 1979 exactly as it does today, we felt comfortable with the authenticity of the coin's colors.
Thanks!
GSAGUY
P.S. I must add that the entire exercise of researching the coin's history and documenting it in a report was a pleasureable one....not to mention a good learning experience.
Sorry but I have been in Dallas at a show......a slow show.
As GSAguy has said I bought the coin, we did the research, made the case, and crossed the coin. I owned it up until Last night when Mr. Crain bought the coin back as he stated he would for more monies that he even stated on the last thread.
As for the price of the coin you would need to ask Adrian that..........as I sold it. MANY thanks to the help GSAguy put into the research and write-up for the coin. A very productive team effort.
While toning is always going to be an emotional issue it will always come down to one point. If you like the color buy the coin!
Bryan
This was not a matter of pride for Adrian as he bought a coin as if he never owned it before.
Wallstreetman, I feel the coin will/would cross to PCGS as a MS67. It will never make the grade as an MS68 unless they add the point for color. Will they add that point......NO.
TBT
No disrespect intended toward any of the principals involved.
New collectors, please educate yourself before spending money on coins; there are people who believe that using numismatic knowledge to rip the naïve is what this hobby is all about.
Edited: when some one pays for the grade on a high priced coin, they are hoping it will slab higher and I might add so what.
good points and summation. i can't see how anyone can disagree, though some will. what makes sense to me is that the owner probably has a buyer lined up to turn the coin over to, which brings me to the heart of my reply----am i the only one who finds it peculiar that when a super-fantastic-one-of-a-kind-knock-your-socks-off-get-out-the-drool-bucket-coin sees the light of day there is such a hard time finding a home for it??
i figure the coin will eventually end up in a wonderful collection for a long time, but only after all the dealers have made their money, inflated the price and given this lovely coin a history which can be used down the road for future profiteering. the downside of our hobby.
al h.
<< <i>what i see going on here is a bunch of dollar seeking dealers scrambling for the quick profit/turnover. >>
And that is wrong because? TBT took a HUGE risk laying out a boatload of money for this coin in the hopes that it would cross. It did cross, and now he has rightfully reaped the reward for that risk. Anybody could have done the same thing, but didn't.
That type of risk is what built this country. He should be congratulated for his stones, not denigrated for stepping up to the plate while everybody else groused about it.
Russ, NCNE
Here's a warning parable for coin collectors...
sorry that i disagree. the outlay was to get the coin holdered by a more reputable service so that it could be sold at a profit. forgive my cynicism here, but take off the blinders!!! i'll step out with a prediction-----anaconda will sell the coin for a healthy profit in a relatively short period of time. that's what he does. he's admitted that he sometimes prices coins VERY high so that he can retain them for awhile, but he's a dealer, not a collector in the sense that the word is generally used. and i'm not criticizing that point despite your misunderstanding it and getting bent on the building of the country. sheesh!!! my post was directed more to the point of how dealers manipulate the prices of coins without any intention of collecting. that's what they do. that's why they're called dealers. and no, i don't think that type of thinking is what built our country russ. at least not until the recent past.
al h.
<< <i>the outlay was to get the coin holdered by a more reputable service so that it could be sold at a profit. >>
If it was that easy, why didn't you - or anybody else - do it?
The coin had already been rejected multiple times by those very same "more reputable" services yet, in the face of those terrible odds, he still risked it. He EARNED the reward. Any argument otherwise is nothing more than emotional blather.
EDIT: Note, I'm referring to TBT here, not Anaconda.
Russ, NCNE
isn't that a little like the pot calling the kettle black? chill dude!!
what i'm criticizing here isn't TBT. and despite what you think, he didn't take much of a risk because Anaconda told him he'd buy the coin back and i don't figure that was just a casual point between strangers. what i'm criticizing is the process where a coins value is inflated.
the reason i didn't buy the coin is because i just don't have $12K laying around to plop down on a coin and i'm not a dealer. i know your not naive russ. these guys know what they're doing and i respect them for that------read my line at the bottom of my post. TBT did his homework before he bought the coin, not after. he used his knowledge to good effect as i'm sure Anaconda has done with regard to this coin. both have minimized the risk they're taking, i believe, by having the coin sold before it's bought, acting as middlemen for the next buyer down the line. that's the nature of the very neccesary beast we call a dealer. i just find the process distasteful since it only inflates the prices we all will eventually pay for coins but i don't begrudge dealers there livelyhood.
al h.
<< <i> Why is ngc's guarantee better than anacs?
Because if that coin turns out to be AT or turns black in the slab NGC will write a BIG check to cover the loss. ANACS will give you a verbal apology if you are lucky. >>
Why would ngc pay if the coin turned black? Ngs's guarantee dosen't cover enviromental damage to a coin from improper storage.
If you send it to pcgs and they say it's AT why would ngc give a check based on what pcgs or another grading service other ngc say's?
Ngc guarantee
Anacs guarantee
<< <i>i know your not naive russ >>
No, Keets, that would be you. You seem to believe that profit is somehow evil; that it is a malignancy that should be shunned; that you are above those who desire it. That position is not only naive, it is dangerously idealistic and smacks of socialism.
The profit motive helped to build this country in to what it is today. The profit motive drives innovation; creates jobs; enhances and improves our way of life. It is the foundation for the best economic system on the planet. Without it, we would be living in the third world.
We should celebrate success, even when it is not our own, for it demonstrates the extraordinary opportunities available to all who seek them. We do not elevate ourselves by dragging others down.
Russ, NCNE
I respect your opinion and understand your viewpoint. With that said I would just need to disagree with you on the business of being a dealer.
Personally the Roanoke was a challenge to prove it was real plus I loved the coin. During the research phase I heard all kinds of advise and opinions for and against the coin. One fact was true with everyone asked: They all loved the coin. The monies made are nice but Adrian bought it back because he asked to have first right of refusal. If he had passed the coin would have gone to the 2003 FUN auction. Adrian knew what the coin was sold for and still put the monies up and bought the coin as if had never owned it before.
Food for though: I would wager that most board members private collections put together would only then begin to rival Adrian’s personal collection. Dealers who are very successful are usually accomplished collectors first and a dealer second.
TBT
And, the NGC guaranty makes this worthwhile??? Well, enjoy receiving Greysheet Bid?
What's that for a Roanoke, MS67? $300??
Seriously, maybe the slab makes the coin more marketable but it still is whatever it is- a QT coin that NGC gave an OPINION on. What is the guarantee on that? Almost nothing. THey will stand by the opinion and keep saying that the toning is real and the grade is true and the coin authentic.
LEGEND- WILL YOU SAY WHY THE BIG BOYS PASSED THIS ONE UP?
TRUTH
I have personally observed a small circle of monster commemorative buyers and talked or listened to their different thoughts on this one coin. In public there where many opinions stated.......in private there have been several bids with offers to escrow and inquiry's on the coin since the Long Beach show by the same folks.
Laurie, let me first say that I respect your knowledge and dedication to the hobby but where does it say toning on commemorative has to be tabbed toned to sell well. Envelope toning like the Roanoke is just a neon and common. What about book toning that has the bull’s eye effect with bright neon colors.
The key to the colors is the emulsion wash the mint uses after the coin is struck and the chemical reaction of the coins container. The mint has changed the chemical wash 54 times since 1924. Theoretically the colors that commemoratives show could also be different with each of those changes regardless of the coins holder/envelope/book.
A perfect example is proof nickels from 1960-64. They tone differently than any other proof nickel……why? The mints changed the chemical wash 3 times for nickels during that time.
TBT
It's an emotional coin.
Kudos for Bryan for taking the time and effort to research this one and also to NGC for bravely going where it is considered risky.
peacockcoins
That’s a good point referring to the purists aspect. It still comes down to what the buyer wants or feels is real or feels that they want to be real.
TBT
During our research on this particular coin, I heard that one of the major toned commem dealers had made negative comments about the coin. Being the shy guy that I am, I approached this dealer and asked him straight-away about the coin. It turned out that the dislike was for the dealer who originally owned it, and not for the coin itself. The coin's colors were spectacular, he admitted. He just didn't trust the dealer that owned it.
Interestingly, the advanced commem collector who told me about this dealer's dislike for the coin, LOVED it himself. However, it was obvious from talking to him that peer pressure and concern for his 'relationship' with the dealer prevented him from adding the coin to his collection. As we all know, we collectors like to show our coins from time to time and he was not willing to risk the negatives of displaying this particular coin even though he loved it and felt the colors were original. I think that's too bad, but it's definitely what motivated this particular collector.
Personally, I buy what I like regardless of what others say and I recommend that strategy to anyone that asks my opinion.
And as well all know, the 'big boys' aren't ALWAYS right!
Just ask Steven Jobs, Bill Gates, and Michael Dell. They stayed the course while others poo-pooed their ideas....or just ignored them altogether.
GSAGUY
<< <i>He just didn't trust the dealer that owned it. >>
I don't think it is the trust part as much as it may be the pricing part. The dealer who owned the Roanoke prices his coins the same to every one be they collector or dealer. This doesn't sit to well with some dealers.
I would guess that the answer has almost nothing to do with the grade, but rather with the observation that a second reputable grading company has now oiced a positive opinion about this controversial coin's originality. Otherwise, is an NGC certification for commemoratives considered so much preferable to ANACS, and if so, why?
Also, I'm perplexed why this coin didn't get a star rating from NGC. Even if the piece is not a PQ 67, I thought a star was awarded for eye appeal. If NGC doesn't think this piece has sufficient aesthetic appeal to warrant such a designation, then why should it be worth 70 times bid? Isn't it eye appeal for which the premium is being paid?
<< <i>I Also, I'm perplexed why this coin didn't get a star rating from NGC. Even if the piece is not a PQ 67, I thought a star was awarded for eye appeal. If NGC doesn't think this piece has sufficient aesthetic appeal to warrant such a designation, then why should it be worth 70 times bid? Isn't it eye appeal for which the premium is being paid? >>
I do not try to understand why it did not make it the first time. I did call and ask NGC why it did not get the star and was told to bring it to St. Louis for review, that they did agree. I no longer own the coin so why spend the $50 to get the star review.
Blue sheet on this coin in MS67 is $675.00 so it sold for 26x blue sheet. I would not mind if it did sell for 70x ($42250)
TBT
PS: Full retail is $975 in MS67 white.
I personally feeling the coin was played with but that is just my lame opinion. What someone else feels is their business and it they want to buy the coin GREAT! Good for them. I don't care either way since my philosophy on all this is that is someone likes the coin buy it. Who cares if it's AT or not? What's the difference? I really comes down whether you like the coin and you are willing to pay the price. What OTHERS feel about it is irrelevant....including the grading services.
jom
Interesting points about the stability of the toning. One of the things that we wanted to point out with our research on the history on the coin was not only that its incredible colors had not changed one bit in over 20 years, but that no one in the industry came forward and stated that they knew for a fact that a certain coin doctor was capable of producing such colors that long ago.
ArtR,
You could indeed be right on that count (that the dealer was not happy because he couldn't get a dealer discount). I just relayed what was said to me. But let's face it. Many dealers don't like one another for all sorts of assorted reasons.....most of which have nothing to do with the dealer's integrity...or lack thereof.
Gemtone,
I think the key to all of this is not so much that NGC's opinion is typically worth that much more than ANAC's, it's just that it may be in this particular case. This coin had been hammered so hard by some that the story took on a life of its own. Personally, I loved the coin the first time I saw it and still do. And obviously, had I not believed that the coin's colors were original I'd have not gone to the effort to help have it certified. I also believe that the piece will end up in a PCGS holder. Will its value increase yet again? Perhaps. Perhaps not. Only time will tell.
GSAGUY
peacockcoins
I don't know when you get to these Monster levels ($20,000.00+ toned Commemoratives) if it plays better in a PCGS holder or NGC holder or not.
Certainly there are GREAT coins in BOTH holders. It's specifically the rainbow toned early Commemoratives I'm curious about.
peacockcoins
<< <i>MANY of the most stunning monster coins reside in NGC slabs.
1) They look better sitting in a white slab.
2) NGC is more willing to give a point for stunning toning.
3) NGC grades more coins than PCGS.
4) PCGS/NGC is pretty much the same with monster toned coins. >>
I would agree on these points. Man, thats twice in a month I have agreed with Greg.........Note: No more drugs while posting!