<< <i>Student loans. Get them in debt and keep them in debt. It is the American way.
No money for coins. >>
Student loans wouldn't be such an issue if the middle class had not shrunk so much. >>
Better to avoid excess student loan debt whenever possible. Something we'll try to instill in, and save for, to help our young daughter. >>
My nephew just started college a few weeks ago. He is taking all of his required courses at the local junior college and has received great support for making such a decision. He isn't going to have to pay for a $4 million per year football coach. >>
Speaking of TV and coin collectors, one of my very favorite examples (since we're talking dramatic TV) was a Rockford files episode where Jim posed as a rich Texas-style oil tycoon looking for advice about collecting rare coins. He was after the rare coin dealer (played very well, and very true-to-life, IMO) villain of the episode, who was in fact, a hitman! I LOL'd on the first viewing and still do -- I just know some of the coin dealers I know would make excellent "button guys." No one would ever suspect! >>
I remember that episode. The antagonist travels to "purchase coins" all the while performing hits. Loved the Rockford Files and have it on DVD. When James Garner passed away recently, my kids broke the news gently to me as if he were a family member. They of course, knew I was fond of the actor. >>
Great actor and a great show -- I do love that episode!
Great actor and a great show -- I do love that episode! >>
I just looked up the episode and it's "The Fourth Man".
I could have watched it but I have Comcast and the only thing not herky jerky were the ads that couldn't be skipped. Either of these conditions is sufficient to make it worthless to me.
There's plenty of kids collecting state quarters, presidental dollars, etc. It might be hard for them to see the point of paying a premium for a coin they collect from pocket change and have just as much fun doing it.
"I'll split the atom! I am the fifth dimension! I am the eighth wonder of the world!" -Gef the talking mongoose.
All of my childhood friends were coin collectors, and they were all in Cub Scouts, then Boy Scouts. It is most important that those organizing coin shows cater to these young people, and certainly include the young girls. We had a major coin show here in Portland OR a few years back. I assisted at a coin dealer's tables. My time was almost entirely taken up by the young interested people, and many times this included their parents.
I collect Capped Bust series by variety in PCGS AU/MS grades.
So, what will happen to the values of our prized coin possessions when us baby boomer Old G's pass away?
Chances are the person who inherits it sells it for peanuts and an old geezer coin shop ends up with it. We have had some inheritances in the family recently, most of the money went into partying, traveling, drinking, limos, sports events, etc. These were all people who as young kids were exposed to coin collecting but had no interest once the tens to hundreds of thousands arrived. Mostly all gone. This is a good lesson and was an eye opener to me.
I once showed part of an old collection I had put together as a kid that was a 100 coin + world coin collection. One of them said he could buy that entire collection today on Ebay for $30. It was a collection of many world coins in UNC condition, anyway I remember that because of the inheritances and what happened. I recently sold that collection for about $1000, barely a blip compared to what goes today but far more than $30. I imagine had I died and this person got the coins they would have been sold for $30 or less.
I am much happier with the coins being sold to collectors that paid up for the coins, one of them completed a collection somebody had been doing for years for a date series. i got to see the final outcome instead of them being dumped like i know would happen. It was a lot more work than the the $1000 was worth but i am glad i did it, at least in my life I got to do what i would have wanted to happen. i sold off a lot of things, old knives I had collected I got $500 or more for that they would have dumped. Same thing with other items.
i don't want this post taken the wrong way, but it is disappointing to see in one case a persons life sacrifice in savings being literally spent like they found it in the street. Anyway that's all I can say, I don't post much anymore and hope all is well.
Great actor and a great show -- I do love that episode! >>
I just looked up the episode and it's "The Fourth Man".
I could have watched it but I have Comcast and the only thing not herky jerky were the ads that couldn't be skipped. Either of these conditions is sufficient to make it worthless to me. >>
Thanks cladking. Looks like it's ep #1 of season 3 -- worth the DVD purchase, IMO!
Collecting, (coins or anything else for that matter) requires a few things, an interest, time, education and cash. In the case of coins the cash requirement is pretty great. I think that competing for entertainment dollars of today's young people is a greater challenge than ever. There are just far too many other things on the list that will take precedence however, as these young people age and obtain greater economic security, that can change.
I really think the investment aspect of good coins will carry the day and the dreck will become less and less valuable.
If you do what you always did, you get what you always got.
<< <i>Collecting, (coins or anything else for that matter) requires a few things, an interest, time, education and cash. In the case of coins the cash requirement is pretty great. I think that competing for entertainment dollars of today's young people is a greater challenge than ever. There are just far too many other things on the list that will take precedence however, as these young people age and obtain greater economic security, that can change.
I really think the investment aspect of good coins will carry the day and the dreck will become less and less valuable. >>
I don't super-disagree, so I guess the key is, don't overpay for your dreck, if you can help it -- and have fun collecting it. Collecting out of change is fun, and when/if you tire of that -- off it goes to the bank for a return of the face value.
I was looking up some prices from about the time I was first introduced to coins. Somewhere around 1960.
Try to buy gold at BOOK price, it's worth a hundred times face value now instead of 3 times. Looked through the book a little further and thought modern days & the Keets saga. Who was "buying 1901 S Quarters 55 years ago for such exorbitant prices in GOOD or FINE Probably none of us old geezers.
I don't think we ever go a month without at least one "The Sky is Falling" thread. Maybe the hobby will collapse and maybe it won't. None of us know for sure. I wouldn't be surprised if it actually picked up steam. The hot areas will shift around some for sure. Quality and rarity will always be king.
<< <i>Maybe there would be more interest if instead of putting first strike on the first 20 million coins issued, they could put First Time Graded instead. lol >>
Hahahaha (Snort)!
Dangit, now I have to clean my keyboard of the bourbon & Coke that just came out my nose!
Think of the dead hobbies of your Fathers. Model airplane making, ham radio, stamp collecting...dead. So our hobbies, hot rod cars, coins, etc.... Obviously will end with us. New hobbies of gen x kids will live and die off with them about 2100. The answer is to sell everything at that one precise moment of time at the intersection of wealth youth (not yet dead) and interest coincide for 90%. You be the 10% that senses this peak of the market. (it is now)
Kids now have a gazillion TV channels to watch, and with video games and the internet, collecting in general is not as strong as it was when I was a kid. I'm 36 and am just old enough to remember life without cellphones and the internet. When I'm in my 80's people are going to love the stories I have to tell about collecting coins, currency, comic books, and baseball cards. The youth of the future will think I'm from Mars! ....or maybe we will all be living on Mars haha!
Think back to when you were twelve years old. Did you like coins back then? If you were like me, you certainly did. Did you attend coin clubs when you were twelve? Did you go to coin shows when you were twelve? I certainly did not. Why not? It was because I was too young to have transportation of my own. To go to a coin club or coin show would require that my mother or father also wanted to attend and were available to attend. This was not the case for me.
Fast forward a few years. Most teenagers and early 20's are focused on financing college. At least I was. I had no disposable income for coins, and when I did, my budget was limited to just a few dollars. Today I am in my early thirties. Most people my age are raising families and have limited disposable income for something like coins. Fast forward even further. By the age of 60, most men have grown children and disposable income. College has been paid for. A house has been paid off. Income is high as a result of 35 years experience. These all contribute to coin show and coin club attendance. Children and teenagers today will be old men forty years from now and the hobby will continue to thrive.
If you are not convinced, type 'coin collection' into the Youtube search engine and pay attention to how many kids are showing off their collections. Kids today have an interest in coin collecting. For every kid that posts a coin collection on Youtube, I'm sure there are plenty more who did not post on Youtube. They don't attend coin clubs and shows because they do not yet have the resources to attend. Give them time.
<< <i>My nephew just started college a few weeks ago. He is taking all of his required courses at the local junior college and has received great support for making such a decision. He isn't going to have to pay for a $4 million per year football coach. >>
Good plan! Without the student loans the schools wouldn't be burning money on such things.
I see this panning out 3 ways: 1) There are enough new collectors and the hobby stays the same. 2) We croak early and other surviving boomer geezers buy our stuff. 3) We live long and there's almost nobody left bidding against us so for cheap we can have every coin we dreamed of before we croak.
My son is 22 years old now, and has always been interested in guns and coins but both are expensive on his income level. I have him on the flipper program, I help him find undervalued collectibles to buy and resell and then put the profits into a collectible without using any of his money so he is into his collection for free. He got a littled spoiled with the crazy gun run up of 20 months ago.
Most 20 year olds can't spend 3 to 10 k a month on collectibles and there does not look like a lot of upside in some 50 dollar coins
Mark NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!! working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
I am still in my twenties, have several thousand dollar coins, and a couple multi-thousand dollar coins. I am not a member of any coin clubs, nor do I attend shows. Maybe young collectors just collect differently than the old geezers?
Many of the "Geezers" in the old photos started collecting in their teens and twenties. Others started later when they had more disposable income. Our numismatic history is full of these examples. The only pre-teen collector from that era that comes to mind is Mrs. Norweb. Some of them were just lucky to inherit their collections and smart enough to add to them.
<< <i>Think of the dead hobbies of your Fathers. Model airplane making, ham radio, stamp collecting...dead. So our hobbies, hot rod cars, coins, etc.... Obviously will end with us. New hobbies of gen x kids will live and die off with them about 2100. The answer is to sell everything at that one precise moment of time at the intersection of wealth youth (not yet dead) and interest coincide for 90%. You be the 10% that senses this peak of the market. (it is now) >>
Except people still collect stamps, still build model airplanes. Geez.
Regarding the "dead" hobbies ... some are not dead at all but very much changed from the past ... and in danger in the future due to the aging of the people interested in them.
For example, plastic models are now experiencing what many consider to be their platinum age. The quality, quantity and subject matter have never been better (and I have been building them since 1956). The availability of aftermarket accessories such as decals, resin parts, photoetch and specialty paints is amazing. This has become a market for adult builders.
But this is a worldwide market and it appears that in the US it is a declining hobby. Here in the US the population of builders is aging rapidly. Kids really don't seem to be that interested. If there isn't an app for it I guess they just have no interest today.
<< <i>Think of the dead hobbies of your Fathers. Model airplane making, ham radio, stamp collecting...dead. So our hobbies, hot rod cars, coins, etc.... Obviously will end with us. New hobbies of gen x kids will live and die off with them about 2100. The answer is to sell everything at that one precise moment of time at the intersection of wealth youth (not yet dead) and interest coincide for 90%. You be the 10% that senses this peak of the market. (it is now) >>
Except people still collect stamps, still build model airplanes. Geez. >>
I still build the Hubley metal car models. Awesome stuff.
Spend it before it's obsolete. It has face value. What will happen when it goes the way of the 2 and 3 cent piece ? Nobody will care ever more. Some young stud will see what a nickel can buy and (capital eyes) on it. (those nasty capitalist cherry picking little whippersnappers. Who do they think they are ? )
<< <i>Think of the dead hobbies of your Fathers. Model airplane making, ham radio, stamp collecting...dead. So our hobbies, hot rod cars, coins, etc.... Obviously will end with us. New hobbies of gen x kids will live and die off with them about 2100. The answer is to sell everything at that one precise moment of time at the intersection of wealth youth (not yet dead) and interest coincide for 90%. You be the 10% that senses this peak of the market. (it is now) >>
Except people still collect stamps, still build model airplanes. Geez. >>
I still build the Hubley metal car models. Awesome stuff. >>
Good deal! Ive been building models since the early 80s, as a kid. 291fifth is absolutely correct, plastic models have been geared towards an adult builder audience for some time now, basically since scale auto was first published in 1979. But thats 35 years ago now, & there are still builders.
There are "shadows" of Everything from the Past still out there. Heck, I make a good living building Daguerreotype cameras!! But, the trends in general cannot be carried on forever. There are people out there who won't leave home without their snuffbox.... But their numbers have been on a steady decline since 1780
<< <i>Spend it before it's obsolete. It has face value. What will happen when it goes the way of the 2 and 3 cent piece ? Nobody will care ever more. Some young stud will see what a nickel can buy and (capital eyes) on it. (those nasty capitalist cherry picking little whippersnappers. Who do they think they are ? )
Mister Big Stuff >>
Tell me who do you think you are.... That reminds me i need to go out picking today, I'll show this pick when i get back if i find any thing.....
<< <i>There are "shadows" of Everything from the Past still out there. Heck, I make a good living building Daguerreotype cameras!! But, the trends in general cannot be carried on forever. There are people out there who won't leave home without their snuffbox.... But their numbers have been on a steady decline since 1780 >>
So be it -- the stuff I enjoy I'll probably get to play with until my dying day, regardless of whether "the market" loves it or not.
The sky is falling, the sky is falling you are right you hear it every month. I get to points where I feel I have to much in one collectible area so I will work on other collectibles. I like a basket full of different eggs.
Mark NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!! working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
<< <i>I'm not sure a 29 year old qualifies as a "youngster", but I can tell you that I have never been more driven to collect and I don't see that changing in the foreseeable future. >>
27 here, 28 in about 12 days, feel the same.
I don't attend coin club meetings because, #1, I work nights, and #2, too many old geezers for my liking. >>
Happy upcoming birthday.
37 as of today here. I started collecting in early 1990 at the age of 12. Up here in the Northeast, it is the same thing, not many younger people (even us Generation X ers aren't that many). Perhaps when the younger people today get older, they will catch on.
<< <i>I wonder why kids these days have so little interest? >>
Simple. Price. >>
I agree that this is one of the most impending factors out there. Many people my age, 21, or younger just do not have the budget for even the coins we consider common. We do not have the opportunity to find as many neat things in change as past generations did. Yes, we can collect things from change, but it is not the same.
Another important factor is the lack of outreach to the younger generation to teach them about our hobby. Coinzip is on the right path
<< <i> If you want to get the younger crowd interested in numismatics, take the time to learn what they are interested in, then find a way to associate numismatics with that interest. >>
Maybe give them a couple of wheat cents and hope it sparks something. I always wish at shows that I had something to give the YNs walking through.
Comments
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Student loans. Get them in debt and keep them in debt. It is the American way.
No money for coins. >>
Student loans wouldn't be such an issue if the middle class had not shrunk so much. >>
Better to avoid excess student loan debt whenever possible. Something we'll try to instill in, and save for, to help our young daughter.
My nephew just started college a few weeks ago. He is taking all of his required courses at the local junior college and has received great support for making such a decision. He isn't going to have to pay for a $4 million per year football coach. >>
Sounds good! Good luck to him.
<< <i>
<< <i>I wish you luck Bodin.
Speaking of TV and coin collectors, one of my very favorite examples (since we're talking dramatic TV) was a Rockford files episode where Jim posed as a rich Texas-style oil tycoon looking for advice about collecting rare coins. He was after the rare coin dealer (played very well, and very true-to-life, IMO) villain of the episode, who was in fact, a hitman! I LOL'd on the first viewing and still do -- I just know some of the coin dealers I know would make excellent "button guys." No one would ever suspect!
I remember that episode. The antagonist travels to "purchase coins" all the while performing hits. Loved the Rockford Files and have it on DVD. When James Garner passed away recently, my kids broke the news gently to me as if he were a family member. They of course, knew I was fond of the actor. >>
Great actor and a great show -- I do love that episode!
<< <i>
Great actor and a great show -- I do love that episode!
I just looked up the episode and it's "The Fourth Man".
I could have watched it but I have Comcast and the only thing not herky jerky were the ads that couldn't be skipped. Either of these conditions is sufficient to make it worthless to me.
Chances are the person who inherits it sells it for peanuts and an old geezer coin shop ends up with it.
I once showed part of an old collection I had put together as a kid that was a 100 coin + world coin collection. One of them said he could buy that entire collection today on Ebay for $30. It was a collection of many world coins in UNC condition, anyway I remember that because of the inheritances and what happened. I recently sold that collection for about $1000, barely a blip compared to what goes today but far more than $30. I imagine had I died and this person got the coins they would have been sold for $30 or less.
I am much happier with the coins being sold to collectors that paid up for the coins, one of them completed a collection somebody had been doing for years for a date series. i got to see the final outcome instead of them being dumped like i know would happen. It was a lot more work than the the $1000 was worth but i am glad i did it, at least in my life I got to do what i would have wanted to happen. i sold off a lot of things, old knives I had collected I got $500 or more for that they would have dumped. Same thing with other items.
i don't want this post taken the wrong way, but it is disappointing to see in one case a persons life sacrifice in savings being literally spent like they found it in the street. Anyway that's all I can say, I don't post much anymore and hope all is well.
<< <i>
<< <i>
Great actor and a great show -- I do love that episode!
I just looked up the episode and it's "The Fourth Man".
I could have watched it but I have Comcast and the only thing not herky jerky were the ads that couldn't be skipped. Either of these conditions is sufficient to make it worthless to me. >>
Thanks cladking. Looks like it's ep #1 of season 3 -- worth the DVD purchase, IMO!
http://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/dvd-the-rockford-files-season-3-james-garner/11932106?ean=25193281920
I really think the investment aspect of good coins will carry the day and the dreck will become less and less valuable.
<< <i>Collecting, (coins or anything else for that matter) requires a few things, an interest, time, education and cash. In the case of coins the cash requirement is pretty great. I think that competing for entertainment dollars of today's young people is a greater challenge than ever. There are just far too many other things on the list that will take precedence however, as these young people age and obtain greater economic security, that can change.
I really think the investment aspect of good coins will carry the day and the dreck will become less and less valuable. >>
I don't super-disagree, so I guess the key is, don't overpay for your dreck, if you can help it -- and have fun collecting it. Collecting out of change is fun, and when/if you tire of that -- off it goes to the bank for a return of the face value.
Try to buy gold at BOOK price,
it's worth a hundred times face value now instead of 3 times.
Looked through the book a little further and thought modern days & the Keets saga.
Who was "buying 1901 S Quarters 55 years ago
for such exorbitant prices in GOOD or FINE
Probably none of us old geezers.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
<< <i>Maybe there would be more interest if instead of putting first strike on the first 20 million coins issued,
they could put First Time Graded instead. lol >>
Hahahaha (Snort)!
Dangit, now I have to clean my keyboard of the bourbon & Coke that just came out my nose!
Wayne
www.waynedriskillminiatures.com
Fast forward a few years. Most teenagers and early 20's are focused on financing college. At least I was. I had no disposable income for coins, and when I did, my budget was limited to just a few dollars. Today I am in my early thirties. Most people my age are raising families and have limited disposable income for something like coins. Fast forward even further. By the age of 60, most men have grown children and disposable income. College has been paid for. A house has been paid off. Income is high as a result of 35 years experience. These all contribute to coin show and coin club attendance. Children and teenagers today will be old men forty years from now and the hobby will continue to thrive.
If you are not convinced, type 'coin collection' into the Youtube search engine and pay attention to how many kids are showing off their collections. Kids today have an interest in coin collecting. For every kid that posts a coin collection on Youtube, I'm sure there are plenty more who did not post on Youtube. They don't attend coin clubs and shows because they do not yet have the resources to attend. Give them time.
<< <i>My nephew just started college a few weeks ago. He is taking all of his required courses at the local junior college and has received great support for making such a decision. He isn't going to have to pay for a $4 million per year football coach. >>
Good plan! Without the student loans the schools wouldn't be burning money on such things.
I see this panning out 3 ways:
1) There are enough new collectors and the hobby stays the same.
2) We croak early and other surviving boomer geezers buy our stuff.
3) We live long and there's almost nobody left bidding against us so for cheap we can have every coin we dreamed of before we croak.
Most 20 year olds can't spend 3 to 10 k a month on collectibles and there does not look like a lot of upside in some 50 dollar coins
NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!!
working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
RIP "BEAR"
Hoard the keys.
and twenties. Others started later when they had more disposable
income. Our numismatic history is full of these examples. The only
pre-teen collector from that era that comes to mind is Mrs. Norweb.
Some of them were just lucky to inherit their collections and smart
enough to add to them.
<< <i>Think of the dead hobbies of your Fathers. Model airplane making, ham radio, stamp collecting...dead. So our hobbies, hot rod cars, coins, etc.... Obviously will end with us. New hobbies of gen x kids will live and die off with them about 2100. The answer is to sell everything at that one precise moment of time at the intersection of wealth youth (not yet dead) and interest coincide for 90%. You be the 10% that senses this peak of the market. (it is now) >>
Except people still collect stamps, still build model airplanes. Geez.
For example, plastic models are now experiencing what many consider to be their platinum age. The quality, quantity and subject matter have never been better (and I have been building them since 1956). The availability of aftermarket accessories such as decals, resin parts, photoetch and specialty paints is amazing. This has become a market for adult builders.
But this is a worldwide market and it appears that in the US it is a declining hobby. Here in the US the population of builders is aging rapidly. Kids really don't seem to be that interested. If there isn't an app for it I guess they just have no interest today.
<< <i>
<< <i>Think of the dead hobbies of your Fathers. Model airplane making, ham radio, stamp collecting...dead. So our hobbies, hot rod cars, coins, etc.... Obviously will end with us. New hobbies of gen x kids will live and die off with them about 2100. The answer is to sell everything at that one precise moment of time at the intersection of wealth youth (not yet dead) and interest coincide for 90%. You be the 10% that senses this peak of the market. (it is now) >>
Except people still collect stamps, still build model airplanes. Geez. >>
I still build the Hubley metal car models. Awesome stuff.
Some young stud will see what a nickel can buy and (capital eyes) on it. (those nasty capitalist cherry picking little whippersnappers. Who do they think they are ? )
Mister Big Stuff
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Think of the dead hobbies of your Fathers. Model airplane making, ham radio, stamp collecting...dead. So our hobbies, hot rod cars, coins, etc.... Obviously will end with us. New hobbies of gen x kids will live and die off with them about 2100. The answer is to sell everything at that one precise moment of time at the intersection of wealth youth (not yet dead) and interest coincide for 90%. You be the 10% that senses this peak of the market. (it is now) >>
Except people still collect stamps, still build model airplanes. Geez. >>
I still build the Hubley metal car models. Awesome stuff. >>
Good deal! Ive been building models since the early 80s, as a kid. 291fifth is absolutely correct, plastic models have been geared towards an adult builder audience for some time now, basically since scale auto was first published in 1979. But thats 35 years ago now, & there are still builders.
<< <i>Spend it before it's obsolete.
Some young stud will see what a nickel can buy and (capital eyes) on it. (those nasty capitalist cherry picking little whippersnappers. Who do they think they are ? )
Mister Big Stuff
Tell me who do you think you are....
Hoard the keys.
<< <i>There are "shadows" of Everything from the Past still out there. Heck, I make a good living building Daguerreotype cameras!! But, the trends in general cannot be carried on forever. There are people out there who won't leave home without their snuffbox.... But their numbers have been on a steady decline since 1780 >>
So be it -- the stuff I enjoy I'll probably get to play with until my dying day, regardless of whether "the market" loves it or not.
NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!!
working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
RIP "BEAR"
Successful BST deals with mustangt and jesbroken. Now EVERYTHING is for sale.
<< <i>The last "Old Geezer" standing gets to buy all the coins real cheap! >>
Okay, I'm in.
US Civil War coinage
Historical Medals
<< <i>
<< <i>I'm not sure a 29 year old qualifies as a "youngster", but I can tell you that I have never been more driven to collect and I don't see that changing in the foreseeable future. >>
27 here, 28 in about 12 days, feel the same.
I don't attend coin club meetings because, #1, I work nights, and #2, too many old geezers for my liking. >>
Happy upcoming birthday.
37 as of today here. I started collecting in early 1990 at the age of 12. Up here in the Northeast, it is the same thing, not many younger people (even us Generation X ers aren't that many). Perhaps when the younger people today get older, they will catch on.
<< <i>
<< <i>I wonder why kids these days have so little interest? >>
Simple. Price. >>
I agree that this is one of the most impending factors out there. Many people my age, 21, or younger just do not have the budget for even the coins we consider common. We do not have the opportunity to find as many neat things in change as past generations did. Yes, we can collect things from change, but it is not the same.
Another important factor is the lack of outreach to the younger generation to teach them about our hobby. Coinzip is on the right path
<< <i> If you want to get the younger crowd interested in numismatics, take the time to learn what they are interested in, then find a way to associate numismatics with that interest. >>
Maybe give them a couple of wheat cents and hope it sparks something. I always wish at shows that I had something to give the YNs walking through.
Choice Numismatics www.ChoiceCoin.com
CN eBay
All of my collection is in a safe deposit box!