How would you handle this: Counterfit Colorado Gruber $10 Sold by a Major Dealer
mustangmanbob
Posts: 1,890 ✭✭✭✭✭
I am 3 levels away from this, and have no skin in the game.
One of my relatives is a financial advisor. He has a client who is advanced in years, and is wanting him to market his coin collection. My relative knows nothing about coins, and contacted me, somehow convinced I know something about coins (none to less than none). Some of them were at least decent, so I showed him PCGS, what a slabbed and graded coin involved. They decided to send in 8 of them, as a trial.
Here are some of the grades:
1889-P Morgan MS66
1890 Half: PR63CAM
1875-S Trade Dollar: MS62
1890-O Morgan: MS63
1907 $5 Gold: MS64
1889-S Morgan: Body Bagged Cleaning
Here is the major issue: There was a $10 Colorado Gruber $10 coin. It was sold as a Gem BU coin. The client has the original paperwork, date, price paid, sales person's name, etc. I have never seen any of the coins, but the pictures of the $10 gold did not look right. The sale was 30 years ago +/-. This was the WHALE in the collection, and he paid appropriately for a whale coin. It just came back from PCGS as counterfeit. MS62 is $87,500 and MS63 is $115,000.
All the coins were sold as high end investment, yada yada. They were all sold as GEM BU, etc. So he is taking a bath.
What, if any, advice would you give on any action. The dealer is very much active, and caters to a high end clientele.
Text
One of my relatives is a financial advisor. He has a client who is advanced in years, and is wanting him to market his coin collection. My relative knows nothing about coins, and contacted me, somehow convinced I know something about coins (none to less than none). Some of them were at least decent, so I showed him PCGS, what a slabbed and graded coin involved. They decided to send in 8 of them, as a trial.
Here are some of the grades:
1889-P Morgan MS66
1890 Half: PR63CAM
1875-S Trade Dollar: MS62
1890-O Morgan: MS63
1907 $5 Gold: MS64
1889-S Morgan: Body Bagged Cleaning
Here is the major issue: There was a $10 Colorado Gruber $10 coin. It was sold as a Gem BU coin. The client has the original paperwork, date, price paid, sales person's name, etc. I have never seen any of the coins, but the pictures of the $10 gold did not look right. The sale was 30 years ago +/-. This was the WHALE in the collection, and he paid appropriately for a whale coin. It just came back from PCGS as counterfeit. MS62 is $87,500 and MS63 is $115,000.
All the coins were sold as high end investment, yada yada. They were all sold as GEM BU, etc. So he is taking a bath.
What, if any, advice would you give on any action. The dealer is very much active, and caters to a high end clientele.
Text
0
Comments
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>The owner of the coin should contact the dealer. If the matter is not resolved to the satisfaction of the owner, then it's time to contact either an attorney or - if the dealer is a member - the PNG. >>
No question this is the proper chain of command. 30 years is a long time. Probably be a tough case. Never heard of a Gem BU Territorial though. Hope the coin wasn't switched....which would be the 1st thing that would have to be defended.
<< <i>
<< <i>The owner of the coin should contact the dealer. If the matter is not resolved to the satisfaction of the owner, then it's time to contact either an attorney or - if the dealer is a member - the PNG. >>
No question this is the proper chain of command. 30 years is a long time. Probably be a tough case. Never heard of a Gem BU Territorial though. Hope the coin wasn't switched....which would be the 1st thing that would have to be defended. >>
Yeah, Since it wasn't holdered, who's to say a family member didn't switch the coin for a fake. Going to be tough to hold a Dealer's feet to the fire on this one.
Join the fight against Minnesota's unjust coin dealer tax law.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>The owner of the coin should contact the dealer. If the matter is not resolved to the satisfaction of the owner, then it's time to contact either an attorney or - if the dealer is a member - the PNG. >>
No question this is the proper chain of command. 30 years is a long time. Probably be a tough case. Never heard of a Gem BU Territorial though. Hope the coin wasn't switched....which would be the 1st thing that would have to be defended. >>
Yeah, Since it wasn't holdered, who's to say a family member didn't switch the coin for a fake. Going to be tough to hold a Dealer's feet to the fire on this one. >>
Does the original paperwork say Gem BU? If it does, what are the chances of one Gem BU Territorial being exchanged for another?
Burden of proof
Statute of limitations
Is the dealer still in business under the same entity?
<< <i>as already stated - two huge hurdles:
Burden of proof
Statute of limitations
Is the dealer still in business under the same entity? >>
Another potentially huge hurdle?
Dealer doing the right thing
-Paul
<< <i>
Here is the major issue: There was a $10 Colorado Gruber $10 coin. It was sold as a Gem BU coin. The client has the original paperwork, date, price paid, sales person's name, etc. I have never seen any of the coins, but the pictures of the $10 gold did not look right. The sale was 30 years ago +/-. This was the WHALE in the collection, and he paid appropriately for a whale coin. It just came back from PCGS as counterfeit. MS62 is $87,500 and MS63 is $115,000.
All the coins were sold as high end investment, yada yada. They were all sold as GEM BU, etc. So he is taking a bath.
What, if any, advice would you give on any action. The dealer is very much active, and caters to a high end clientele.
Text >>
30 years and receipts only? You would have to prove intent to defraud and even more difficult - that coin was the same as bought.
Money is lost IMO - I am sorry. Maybe the dealer would make the buyer whole, but that is just getting your hopes up.
Tyler
NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!!
working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
RIP "BEAR"
<< <i>
<< <i>
Here is the major issue: There was a $10 Colorado Gruber $10 coin. It was sold as a Gem BU coin. The client has the original paperwork, date, price paid, sales person's name, etc. I have never seen any of the coins, but the pictures of the $10 gold did not look right. The sale was 30 years ago +/-. This was the WHALE in the collection, and he paid appropriately for a whale coin. It just came back from PCGS as counterfeit. MS62 is $87,500 and MS63 is $115,000.
All the coins were sold as high end investment, yada yada. They were all sold as GEM BU, etc. So he is taking a bath.
What, if any, advice would you give on any action. The dealer is very much active, and caters to a high end clientele.
Text >>
30 years and receipts only? You would have to prove intent to defraud and even more difficult - that coin was the same as bought.
Money is lost IMO - I am sorry. Maybe the dealer would make the buyer whole, but that is just getting your hopes up.
Tyler >>
If there hasn't been a switch, the dealer is active, caters to high end clientele, and doesn't make good, it may be worth knowing who the dealer is.
Different dealers have different policies and it is good to understand the policies of the dealers you work with. This is similar to how some dealers buy back strong, and some don't.
NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!!
working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
RIP "BEAR"
<< <i>I do not see a happy ending here and just an example of why I have never put any faith is a warranty from a dealer covering a fake coin after the sale. Proving it is the same coin should not be any harder than the dealer claiming it is a different coin. >>
If the dealer is active and caters to high end clientele as mentioned, why would you not expect a happy ending?
Don't high end clientele expect high end service from high end dealers?
<< <i>The owner of the coin should contact the dealer. If the matter is not resolved to the satisfaction of the owner, then it's time to contact either an attorney or - if the dealer is a member - the PNG. >>
What he says.
(I'll sit out my suspension quietly).
It is sad to see these "investment" coins still causing trouble all these years later.
Follow MrEureka's advice.
You may also want to check and see if the dealer was ever involved in a lawsuit regarding the "investment" coins he sold back in the 1970's and 80's. This could provide some good background info. (Several big name, still active dealers were involved in such suits.)
Don't get yourself too deeply into this. It could get very messy and expensive. This isn't your problem. Don't do anything that makes it your problem.
The dealer will remember such a coin.
Approach him with respect, don't start off thinking bad of him.
Most likely did not know it was fake and will return the invested money.
Have some faith in the dealer.
30 years ago he was probably just learning.
I say give the dealer a fair chance, why assume that he will say its not the coin he sold,
If he does not play fair then figure out your next step.
Randy Conway
Www.killermarbles.com
Www.suncitycoin.com
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>The owner of the coin should contact the dealer. If the matter is not resolved to the satisfaction of the owner, then it's time to contact either an attorney or - if the dealer is a member - the PNG. >>
No question this is the proper chain of command. 30 years is a long time. Probably be a tough case. Never heard of a Gem BU Territorial though. Hope the coin wasn't switched....which would be the 1st thing that would have to be defended. >>
Yeah, Since it wasn't holdered, who's to say a family member didn't switch the coin for a fake. Going to be tough to hold a Dealer's feet to the fire on this one. >>
Does the original paperwork say Gem BU? If it does, what are the chances of one Gem BU Territorial being exchanged for another? >>
I would say it's close to zero chance that someone switched an extremely rare coin with an identical high quality fake of the same high grade and type.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
The Mysterious Egyptian Magic Coin
Coins in Movies
Coins on Television
AND the coin was removed from the original package.
Without the dealers knowledge. The dealer can claim that it's not the same coin.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
<< <i>I am curious what the collector paid for the coin in question 30 years ago. After all, that is, in theory, what the dealer would potentially be on the hook for. It might be a few hundred bucks and no big deal (the price of a mid-tier bottle of wine at Gibson's
I checked on this and the only Clark Gruber sold in UNC in this timeframe (as per Kimmell) was an 1860 $10 out of Bowers & Merena in 6/1984 lot 3959 for $13,750 as MS60. The highest graded 1861 $10's around this time were multiple XF pieces selling for ~$2500.
Please turn your PM on.
bob
pcgs may have made a mistake. you could resub and ask for notes, if they will give them.
things were different back then and it may not have been considered a counterfeit. info back then was via seeing, speaking and reading texts.
and RYK has a greatpoint that this might have only been a few hundred(or maybe in the $1000 range if that? (I'm thinking over price of gold and if this was purchased in the gold run up....). All the dealer is on the hook for is the sales value, no more.
I also wonder the value of gold content now versus sales value then. (since I have no idea what such a coin would sell for then)
<< <i>There are so many holes in this story that it floats. >>
Actually, as someone who was an active collector during this period, the story sounds as if it is quite true.
Circa 1981 I was contacted by an "investment advisor" who had heard I had an interest in coins. I thought it would be interesting to hear his pitch. He was not aware that I had been an active collector for twenty years by that time and probably thought I was just another investor type. What he was offering was an investment package of coins from a very well known dealer who is still very active in 2014.
I played the role of bumpkin as I wanted to hear his entire pitch. I then started asking a few questions that required some knowledge of the field and not just what was on his investment script pitch. Essentially, I ripped his entire pitch apart (and enjoyed doing so). Needless to say, I didn't buy anything from him.
Moving forward to the early 1990's, I was contacted by one of my co-workers in our central office. He knew I was a coin collector and asked if I would look over the "investment" he had made in Morgan dollars a few years earlier. On my next trip into the central office he had them waiting for me. He had paid $350 to $500 each for these "investment" coins. I had to break the news to him that they were worth perhaps 1/10th what he had paid for them.
logic tells me that it is a lost cause and unenforceable.
My unslabbed purchase threshold is approx. $300 on coins. 7yrs. ago (I think) there was a raw gold coin advertised as AU on eBay for $2200. I messaged the seller and wanted to buy the coin. I asked them if they would be willing to send it off to be graded, I would then purchase the coin at their full asking price and pay for all their grading/shipping fees provided it graded as a true AU without a net/details grade (Body bag at the time). They did, it did, and I bought it! ....a little healthy paranoia goes along way!
Put yourself in the dealer's shoes. With the coin out of the original holder/flip/2x2, would you believe a story that the coin is a fake you sold 30 years ago? How would you know it was the same coin? Unless there is really good photographic evidence, I think guarantees are tough to enforce once the coin is removed from original packaging and can no longer be certain that it is the same coin.
Years ago there were some 1861 $20 "die 2" specimens that were highly-graded. PCGS even certified some.
Then later it was determined that these were modern fakes, possibly perpetrated by J. Ford. Now they are listed as "fantasies".
The original (genuine) Die 1 1861 $20 are easy to tell apart from the fakes.
Can you post pictures of it here ?
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>The owner of the coin should contact the dealer. If the matter is not resolved to the satisfaction of the owner, then it's time to contact either an attorney or - if the dealer is a member - the PNG. >>
No question this is the proper chain of command. 30 years is a long time. Probably be a tough case. Never heard of a Gem BU Territorial though. Hope the coin wasn't switched....which would be the 1st thing that would have to be defended. >>
Yeah, Since it wasn't holdered, who's to say a family member didn't switch the coin for a fake. Going to be tough to hold a Dealer's feet to the fire on this one. >>
Best answer.
<< <i>If there hasn't been a switch, the dealer is active, caters to high end clientele, and doesn't make good, it may be worth knowing who the dealer is.
Different dealers have different policies and it is good to understand the policies of the dealers you work with. This is similar to how some dealers buy back strong, and some don't. >>
The list of crooked dealers or ones selling way over-graded coins during the 1970-1986 period is very long. A lot of those same dealers are considered "luminaries"....some have even won numismatic awards. While the publicity won't help them, I doubt they would do anything after such a long period of time. How many "gem BU" $10 territorials has a typical dealer handled over their lifetime.....probably 0 for 99.9% of them. There should be no expiration for selling counterfeits. The hard part is proving it's the same coin unless it's an ex-auction or ex-catalog coin that was prominently photographed at one time. Short of that, their word against yours. I suspect this dealer will staunchly defend their "good reputation" and sick their lawyers after you if you post anything negative about them here by "name." They pretty much know you probably can't provide air-tight evidence to show they did anything wrong.
wow.
<< <i>
<< <i>If there hasn't been a switch, the dealer is active, caters to high end clientele, and doesn't make good, it may be worth knowing who the dealer is.
Different dealers have different policies and it is good to understand the policies of the dealers you work with. This is similar to how some dealers buy back strong, and some don't. >>
The list of crooked dealers or ones selling way over-graded coins during the 1970-1986 period is very long. A lot of those same dealers are considered "luminaries"....some have even won numismatic awards. While the publicity won't help them, I doubt they would do anything after such a long period of time. How many "gem BU" $10 territorials has a typical dealer handled over their lifetime.....probably 0 for 99.9% of them. There should be no expiration for selling counterfeits. The hard part is proving it's the same coin unless it's an ex-auction or ex-catalog coin that was prominently photographed at one time. Short of that, their word against yours. I suspect this dealer will staunchly defend their "good reputation" and sick their lawyers after you if you post anything negative about them here by "name." They pretty much know you probably can't provide air-tight evidence to show they did anything wrong. >>
Don't they also have to provide some proof [other than their own denial/say so] that it isn't the same coin?
<< <i>
<< <i>If there hasn't been a switch, the dealer is active, caters to high end clientele, and doesn't make good, it may be worth knowing who the dealer is.
Different dealers have different policies and it is good to understand the policies of the dealers you work with. This is similar to how some dealers buy back strong, and some don't. >>
The list of crooked dealers or ones selling way over-graded coins during the 1970-1986 period is very long. A lot of those same dealers are considered "luminaries"....some have even won numismatic awards. While the publicity won't help them, I doubt they would do anything after such a long period of time. How many "gem BU" $10 territorials has a typical dealer handled over their lifetime.....probably 0 for 99.9% of them. There should be no expiration for selling counterfeits. The hard part is proving it's the same coin unless it's an ex-auction or ex-catalog coin that was prominently photographed at one time. Short of that, their word against yours. I suspect this dealer will staunchly defend their "good reputation" and sick their lawyers after you if you post anything negative about them here by "name." They pretty much know you probably can't provide air-tight evidence to show they did anything wrong. >>
The person who bought this counterfeit has all the original receipts including the person in the firm that sold the fake to him so I doubt the dealer will sue anyone. Actually it's more likely this dealer will have to defend himself in a civil suit since the coin's value is high enough to get a lawyer involved. If this dealer is smart he will want to settle out of court to avoid the adverse publicity he would get once the numismatic press gets ahold of this story.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>I think it all depends on who the dealer is, and also if the coin is in the original packaging. >>
Probably not possible since the coin was submitted to PCGS.