Was this Bar Copper on eBay real?

jonathanb · August 17, 2014 9:42AM

I was watching the Bar copper that just ended on eBay. It didn't scream fake to me, but I can't see the expected spur on the second bar.

If someone recognizes this as a known counterfeit, would you share the era/origin?

If it's real, congrats to the buyer!

LotsoLuck · August 17, 2014 9:45AM

Fake. Not a chance one in that or any condition would go for that cheap.

commoncents05 · August 17, 2014 9:52AM

Definitely fake.

-Paul

coinsarefun · August 17, 2014 9:53AM

Not real.......it doesn't even look like an electrotype. I would say one of the many counterfeits and hard to guess its age.
But I would say not contemporary.

coinsarefun · August 17, 2014 10:02AM

Okay Johnathan.......I should have looked before opening my mouth

I compared it to mine which is a struck contemporary counterfeit and looks identical....sorry about that

I didn't pay anywhere near that amount but it is a really neat example(counterfeit)

kaz · August 17, 2014 10:31AM

as fake as the day is long. would make a nice button, though!

DaveWcoins · August 17, 2014 10:32AM

<< Okay Johnathan.......I should have looked before opening my mouth

I compared it to mine which is a struck contemporary counterfeit and looks identical....sorry about that

I didn't pay anywhere near that amount but it is a really neat example(counterfeit)

>>

You nailed it, Stef. An exact match to yours. Nice work there!

Zoins · August 17, 2014 10:38AM

Good to know about this contemporary counterfeit.

I've been eager to learn more about the Bolen pieces. Are the Bolen pieces also considered counterfeits?

DUIGUY · August 17, 2014 10:48AM

No barb on second bar reverse.
Would have to ? this one.

coindeuce · August 17, 2014 11:15AM

Notice how SleazeBay has removed the link for reporting an item after the listing has ended. Not that they would pay any attention to the report of a sale of a counterfeit.

Shamika · August 17, 2014 11:20AM

For those who don't know, a die marker on the real Bar Cent is the spur, or die break, on the far left end of the second bar from the bottom. Take a look at the image in the link below. Once you know of this, you'll be able to identify most every counterfeit you come across. Still, I would never recommend buying one of these pieces uncertified even if you see the spur.

Bar cent spur

MsMorrisine · August 17, 2014 11:45AM

<< Okay Johnathan.......I should have looked before opening my mouth

I compared it to mine which is a struck contemporary counterfeit and looks identical....sorry about that

I didn't pay anywhere near that amount but it is a really neat example(counterfeit)

>>

I'd like to see the too overlaid with a concentration on the top serif of the S

jonathanb · August 17, 2014 12:01PM

<< I'd like to see the too overlaid with a concentration on the top serif of the S >>

The only thing that would show is the skill of the person doing the overlay. Those are clearly the EXACT same dies. Look at the depression on the bottom curve of the S (more or less straight down from the left edge of the serif of the A). Both pieces have that mark.

Wonder when/where these were made. Nice pairing, Stef!

Shamika · August 17, 2014 12:03PM

<< I'd like to see the too overlaid with a concentration on the top serif of the S >>

The top left serif on the "U" looks a little different as well. But notice that the "S" in both images show a ding at the same location on the bottom arm.

coinsarefun · August 17, 2014 12:17PM

<< Good to know about this contemporary counterfeit.

I've been eager to learn more about the Bolen pieces. Are the Bolen pieces also considered counterfeits? >>

Bolen pieces are re-strikes made for collectors. He made them different on purpose to easily differentiate between the real and his.

From the archives of Stacks...............
He was the most widely known and prolific engraver of struck copies. Prominent and respected among numismatists of his day, his die sinking work was superb.
Bolen expressed regret at having made the copies, writing ''I have been informed that they have been worn or rubbed and made to look old, then sold as genuine.
I spent a great deal of time on them; on one I worked from a genuine coin, on the others from very fine electrotypes.
They are all quite scarce now. They were not a financial success to me.''

As far as the listing goes I have been searching a very long time for a contemporary counterfeit and found mine a few month back.....I even posted a thread on it.
Its really a shame that the seller did not list it as a contemporary counterfeit as he would have gotten fair value for it of at least $500 and maybe as high as it sold for.
Unless the seller was truly unaware. The well made contemporary and electrotype market has really heated up over the last year and is commanding good money for quality.
And yes....there is such a thing as quality contemporary counterfeits.

Take a look at Mikes' website NER rarities as he has a very well written explaination of Bolen and Basturd dies
While he does not address this particular counterfeit we have discussed it and come to the conclusion that it is a contemporary struck counterfeit.....one that is not seen that often.

Also........here is the most common fake cast BAR copper

Note the easiest pick up point ........ red arrow

coinsarefun · August 17, 2014 12:19PM

<< 

<< 
>>

I'd like to see the too overlaid with a concentration on the top serif of the S >>

Sorry.....I'm a little to lazy to do the overlay but I places some arrows at the best pickup points.....remember my images suck

Zoins · August 17, 2014 12:40PM

<< 

<< Good to know about this contemporary counterfeit.

I've been eager to learn more about the Bolen pieces. Are the Bolen pieces also considered counterfeits? >>

Bolen pieces are re-strikes made for collectors. He made them different on purpose to easily differentiate between the real and his. >>

My impression was that Bolen didn't use the original dies. If he didn't have the original dies, then his can't be restrikes right? If his pieces have differences, then it seems like they can be considered replicas, copies, or fantasy coins.

coinsarefun · August 17, 2014 12:45PM

<< 

<< 

<< Good to know about this contemporary counterfeit.

I've been eager to learn more about the Bolen pieces. Are the Bolen pieces also considered counterfeits? >>

Bolen pieces are re-strikes made for collectors. He made them different on purpose to easily differentiate between the real and his. >>

My impression was that Bolen didn't use the original dies. If he didn't have the original dies, then his can't be restrikes right? If his pieces have differences, then it seems like they can be considered replicas, copies, or fantasy coins. >>

Yeah, I guess re-strikes is a word that is tossed around to freely

lostincoins · August 17, 2014 12:45PM

<< Notice how SleazeBay has removed the link for reporting an item after the listing has ended. Not that they would pay any attention to the report of a sale of a counterfeit.

>>

The report item is still there as I just reported it.

EagleEye · August 17, 2014 12:51PM

I don't think this counterfeit is a contemporary counterfeit, unless 1860 is contemporary.

Also, the beware of guanine diagnostics on electrotypes.

coinsarefun · August 17, 2014 1:05PM

<< I don't think this counterfeit is a contemporary counterfeit, unless 1860 is contemporary.

Also, the beware of guanine diagnostics on electrotypes. >>

Do you think this is a modern counterfeit Rick?....say early 1900's or earlier?

I was thinking middle to late 1800's but could be wrong

Zoins · August 17, 2014 1:43PM

<< 

<< I don't think this counterfeit is a contemporary counterfeit, unless 1860 is contemporary.

Also, the beware of guanine diagnostics on electrotypes. >>

Do you think this is a modern counterfeit Rick?....say early 1900's or earlier?

I was thinking middle to late 1800's but could be wrong >>

Do you mean "1900's and later"?

I think Rick is saying that mid to late 1800s is not what he considers contemporary for this piece, which was struck around 1785.

If this replica was struck in the mid to late 1800s, can 65+ years after the original be considered contemporary?

I typically consider contemporary to be around the time when the originals were struck and often for the purpose to be used as currency.

blu62vette · August 17, 2014 2:46PM

Stefanie-

Does your reverse have the same depressions in the bars?

coinsarefun · August 17, 2014 2:58PM

<< Stefanie-

Does your reverse have the same depressions in the bars? >>

Funny you should ask.........Yes it does and I didn't post the original pic's because they stink.
I just pulled it out and tried again with some new pic's....If they are better I will post them.

coinsarefun · August 17, 2014 3:10PM

MsMorrisine · August 17, 2014 3:10PM

Wild

Why does the OP one have right triangle denticles at 2, but yours has isosceles triangles?

coinsarefun · August 17, 2014 3:23PM

<< Wild

Why does the OP one have right triangle denticles at 2, but yours has isosceles triangles? >>

Its the same.......... just he has great images and mine are not.

Shamika · August 17, 2014 10:21PM

I wonder if the dies have been reworked. There are obvious differences between the left most serif in the "U".

7Jaguars · August 17, 2014 10:49PM

Tip of the "A" in USA quite different as well....

Shamika · August 18, 2014 12:06PM

<< Tip of the "A" in USA quite different as well.... >>

At first glance you are correct. But look closer and you can see that the flat topped "A" is simply an incomplete strike. However, this isn't the case with the serif on the "U".

Was this Bar Copper on eBay real?

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