In 1904, they managed to mint over 6 million double eagles.
Showing up with only 500 per day is a joke. They could have showed up with 50,000 and let everyone have their fill, and still made a profit for the taxpayers.
And that was the situation the US Mint created. >>
I agree with this. Maybe the "first sold" would still bring a premium, but if there were potentially 20,000 Kennedys available with ANA labels, few people would have stood in line 12 hours to get one.
Laura's massacre of the English language and her ill advised attempt at humor with her dyslexia comment not withstanding, at least she has the ability to understand that the events at the ANA regarding the Kennedy Gold Coins was wrong. I've yet to see any comments at all from the other board members.
I'd be interested to know if during the ANA Board meetings she voiced any objection to the process of distribution when this was discussed? Whether it was discussed at all and whether the earlier distribution issues (with the Reverse Proof Buffalo's) was even a consideration.
If the ANA just let the Mint do anything they wanted, that's a problem.
If you do what you always did, you get what you always got.
<< <i>She said if my memory is correct that she'd bought 100's of ana badges with plans to enlist high school kids but said that plan fell apart when they made it 18. >>
This is the crux of the problem. Why did the ANA sell hundreds of badges to dealers so they could game the system?
<< <i>She said if my memory is correct that she'd bought 100's of ana badges with plans to enlist high school kids but said that plan fell apart when they made it 18. >>
This is the crux of the problem. Why did the ANA sell hundreds of badges to dealers so they could game the system? >>
<< <i>She said if my memory is correct that she'd bought 100's of ana badges with plans to enlist high school kids but said that plan fell apart when they made it 18. >>
This is the crux of the problem. Why did the ANA sell hundreds of badges to dealers so they could game the system? >>
<< <i>She said if my memory is correct that she'd bought 100's of ana badges with plans to enlist high school kids but said that plan fell apart when they made it 18. >>
This is the crux of the problem. Why did the ANA sell hundreds of badges to dealers so they could game the system? >>
At $50 per extra dealer badge, it represented a significant additional direct revenue stream for the ANA coffers. I doubt that the ANA cared how those badges were going to be used, as long as the use of them did not violate any ANA bylaws.
<< <i>She said if my memory is correct that she'd bought 100's of ana badges with plans to enlist high school kids but said that plan fell apart when they made it 18. >>
This is the crux of the problem. Why did the ANA sell hundreds of badges to dealers so they could game the system? >>
At $50 per extra dealer badge, it represented a significant additional direct revenue stream for the ANA coffers. I doubt that the ANA cared how those badges were going to be used, as long as the use of them did not violate any ANA bylaws. >>
I could see selling 10 extra badges to a dealer, just so they could skim a little cream. But HUNDREDS? This is reprehensible. A true outrage.
And yet, I can almost guarantee that Laura will continue to do business with KL. He makes coins that she wants/needs for her customers. I don't see anything wrong with what Kevin did. But then again, I'm a proud capitalist and I sat in line for 3 days without sleeping and wound up getting 16 coins.
The ten million dollars paid for that 1794 is a marketing ploy. At least that was my opinon of the sale. The bidding was at 5.5 million dollars when it jumped to 8.5 million dollars. No one really knows what would have happened had the coin taken increments up to higher levels and possibly stopped before 8.5 million dollars. Now what brought it to 10 million? The juice? It doesn't matter if it's 50,000 coins at $1280 each or one coin at somewhere between 5.5 million and 8.5 million it's all marketing believe me my opinion is these markets are all "sizzle" no steak.
410a, you can count on the 1794 Dollar having a lot more meat on it than the 1st graded Kennedy, if and when either of them reappear in the market. That is, if you even already believe that the $100K reported for the 2014 JFK is a real number.
Coindeuce you can RE READ what I wrote. I am speaking of "MARKETING" not meat on a bone or value in the particular coin! Furthermore I have lampooned the number paid for the "first .75 ounce hunk of gold with the bootleggers son on it" in a different thread. I am talking about the "marketing" of coins and the coins values being skewed. Thank you for your insight. Regards, Mike...................It's all gone crazy
The 1794 Dollar is actually owned by a collector, who has no plans to sell the coin, as stated publicly already. The enterprise that bid on the coin in auction merely represented him. Please explain how this is a marketing ploy, other than being publicity for the enterprise that represented the owner.
I get it, bunch of low life beggars made a buck in a fancy coin show with this " Modern dreck". Next year a dress code needs to be in place. You can't dress all the homeless.
Unlike tickets, it's hard to justify making a law to punish resales as people need to resell all the time. "Guess what? I got a gold kennedy! Guess What? I got laid off today!"
perhaps a purchase contract to prevent paid orderers including people to be paid at a later date, also a clause that says the household limits will not be circumvented all subject to some type of penalties including loss of access to future hot items. The problem is that deep pockets can always find ways around this too.
Life is not fair and never will be no matter how hard you try to fix it. More rules is not the answer. The cost to enfore the above rules would cost to much and who gets to decide who is dressed proper.
A little thinking about possible issues that could arise would have been more helpful. When I buy something I generally run it thru a few good/bad/possible senarios and go from there. The clueless at the top did none of this as most could see how this was going to unfold everyday leading up to the show and the release.
I am against more rules, better preplanning to anticipate issues and corrective action would have been better.
Mark NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!! working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
<< <i>The 1794 Dollar is actually owned by a collector, who has no plans to sell the coin, as stated publicly already. The enterprise that bid on the coin in auction merely represented him. Please explain how this is a marketing ploy, other than being publicity for the enterprise that represented the owner. >>
That "collector" also happens to be a principal partner in the "enterprise" that bid on it for him. That "collector" also owned a 1913 V Nickel at one point in time, holding "long"...can't remember the details, but that amounted to a couple years if I recall. Regardless, the 1794 Dollar is a tangential topic to that at hand.
Laura is on the Board of the ANA, similar debacles to this have happened before at the ANA shows, and yet she acts disgusted and surprised by what happened. It doesn't take a genius to have predicted this fiasco. Accomplices to this disaster should be the ANA planners and the Board of Governors who allowed the US Mint to stage this in the first place.
-Brandon -~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~- My sets: [280+ horse coins] :: [France Sowers] :: [Colorful world copper] :: [Beautiful world coins] -~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
<< <i>At $50 per extra dealer badge, it represented a significant additional direct revenue stream for the ANA coffers. I doubt that the ANA cared how those badges were going to be used, as long as the use of them did not violate any ANA bylaws. >>
ANA would have made out a lot better if they had paid people to wait in the Kennedy line.
Government is the great fiction through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else. - Bastiat
Based on what I heard some of the line standees were paid to wait in line each day... and most of them waited on two or three different days... I wonder of those big buyers will be issuing the required Form-1099s to those who were paid to wait?
If you make money standing in line you are responsible to pay the taxes or declare it. No one is responsible to issue a 1099 unless they pay in excess of $600 dollars in a given tax year to that "casual labor" employee.
<< <i>If you make money standing in line you are responsible to pay the taxes or declare it. No one is responsible to issue a 1099 unless they pay in excess of $600 dollars in a given tax year to that "casual labor" employee. >>
This is true (although I think the dollar amount is greater). Also, if I'm not mistaken, I believe the person who hired all these bums can claim a deduction on his income taxes as a business expense. That would be the ultimate irony.
<< <i>If you make money standing in line you are responsible to pay the taxes or declare it. No one is responsible to issue a 1099 unless they pay in excess of $600 dollars in a given tax year to that "casual labor" employee. >>
I know the rule... and many individuals were paid more than $600 cash this week to stand in line.
<< <i>I will most likely never attend an ANA show in the future as people were actually getting trampled on. I have also canceled my membership. If they can not control a coin show properly and at some point actually condoned these actions I do not want to be part of it. >>
First of all, no one was trampled at the ANA show. That took place in Denver, at the Mint.
In my opinion, the blame here goes to the the grading services (for creating demand for a special label) and the dealers who hype up that label.
From all reports, the crowd control at the ANA show was FAR better than what was done at any of the retail locations. Yes, there were some inconveniences on the floor, but there was no public safety threat.
The ANA Board made the decision to stop sales at the ANA show once the Mint decided to stop sales at other locations. There was a large burden on our staff to assist with the crowds and the decision was made that if the Mint isn't going to put up with the hassle of selling them, we surely weren't going to either -- even though the Mint was planning on continuing to sell them.
Greg
Greg Lyon, ANA Board of Governors 2011-2017 -- The views represented here are my own personal opinions and do not represent those of the American Numismatic Association.
<< <i>I'd be interested to know if during the ANA Board meetings she voiced any objection to the process of distribution when this was discussed? Whether it was discussed at all and whether the earlier distribution issues (with the Reverse Proof Buffalo's) was even a consideration.
If the ANA just let the Mint do anything they wanted, that's a problem. >>
The ANA Board did not have any official discussions over the sale process, just some emails among the group.
As I've stated in other threads, we DID NOT allow the Mint to do whatever they wanted. Originally, their plan was to announce that the coins were going on sale at some point during the show. There would have been a stampede, people would have been hurt. We stopped that from happening (with the help of the Rosemont Fire Marshall) once we heard of that idea.
On the other hand... if we did not allow the sale of these coins from the start and the Mint said "We wanted to sell at the ANA convention, but they wouldn't let us...", there would be just as many complaints saying the ANA is to blame.
Greg
Greg Lyon, ANA Board of Governors 2011-2017 -- The views represented here are my own personal opinions and do not represent those of the American Numismatic Association.
<< <i>This is the crux of the problem. Why did the ANA sell hundreds of badges to dealers so they could game the system? >>
Early bird badges are available to anyone who wishes to purchase them, not just dealer.
Greg
Greg Lyon, ANA Board of Governors 2011-2017 -- The views represented here are my own personal opinions and do not represent those of the American Numismatic Association.
<< <i>Did the ANA sell these badges weeks before the show, or could you buy them at the show? Just curious. >>
Early bird badges are available for sale in advance of the convention as well as at the show itself.
Greg
Greg Lyon, ANA Board of Governors 2011-2017 -- The views represented here are my own personal opinions and do not represent those of the American Numismatic Association.
<< <i>There was a robbery in one of the bathrooms in Chicago, and known gang members roaming the bourse floor.
Weird, wild stuff. >>
There was no robbery at the show -- at least there was none that was reported to the police.
As for "gang members", I think there was some stereotyping going on...
Greg
Greg Lyon, ANA Board of Governors 2011-2017 -- The views represented here are my own personal opinions and do not represent those of the American Numismatic Association.
<< <i>Extra badge for someone to be at your table = $50
100 of those badges = $5000 to the ANA
May have something to do with why they did it. >>
First of all dealer badges were not being sold... early bird badges were. However, at some point, the supply of early bird badges ran out and dealer badges were used -- but indicating they were not actually dealers. The problem is that early bird badges are supposed to be available throughout the show -- and it was a matter of fairness that once we sold them at the start of the show, we could not randomly decide a point at which to stop selling them
Whatever revenue the ANA made from the badge sales are irrelevant due to the cost of the extra security we had to provide. Even so, $5000 in revenue does not make a significant difference to the ANA bottom line -- realize we are an organization with a $5+ million yearly budget and $72 million in assets.
Greg
Greg Lyon, ANA Board of Governors 2011-2017 -- The views represented here are my own personal opinions and do not represent those of the American Numismatic Association.
<< <i>There was a robbery in one of the bathrooms in Chicago, and known gang members roaming the bourse floor.
Weird, wild stuff. >>
There was no robbery at the show -- at least there was none that was reported to the police.
As for "gang members", I think there was some stereotyping going on...
Greg >>
I don't know first-hand; a member here posted that he knew the guy who was robbed (it was more like a pickpocket thing ... the coin was lifted when he was bumped in a bathroom; he eventually got the coin back).
Laura Sperber said in her report that the ANA was aware that KNOWN GANGS were on the bourse floor.
<< <i>All I know is what I read in the forum ... >>
And I'm basing my comments on what I was told personally by our legal counsel who worked with our security team and spoke to the Rosemont Chief of Police.
Greg
Greg Lyon, ANA Board of Governors 2011-2017 -- The views represented here are my own personal opinions and do not represent those of the American Numismatic Association.
<< <i>I will most likely never attend an ANA show in the future as people were actually getting trampled on. I have also canceled my membership. If they can not control a coin show properly and at some point actually condoned these actions I do not want to be part of it. >>
First of all, no one was trampled at the ANA show. That took place in Denver, at the Mint.
In my opinion, the blame here goes to the the grading services (for creating demand for a special label) and the dealers who hype up that label.
From all reports, the crowd control at the ANA show was FAR better than what was done at any of the retail locations. Yes, there were some inconveniences on the floor, but there was no public safety threat.
The ANA Board made the decision to stop sales at the ANA show once the Mint decided to stop sales at other locations. There was a large burden on our staff to assist with the crowds and the decision was made that if the Mint isn't going to put up with the hassle of selling them, we surely weren't going to either -- even though the Mint was planning on continuing to sell them.
Greg >>
Wasn't it known and discussed here that some dealers would be bringing/bussing in line standers even before PCGS announced any kind of grading criteria?
<< <i>All I know is what I read in the forum ... >>
And I'm basing my comments on what I was told personally by our legal counsel who worked with our security team and spoke to the Rosemont Chief of Police.
Greg >>
That's fine. So Laura Sperber was mistaken.
The guy who had his coin lifted apparently didn't report it because he got it back, I assume.
<< <i>There was a robbery in one of the bathrooms in Chicago, and known gang members roaming the bourse floor.
Weird, wild stuff. >>
There was no robbery at the show -- at least there was none that was reported to the police.
As for "gang members", I think there was some stereotyping going on...
Greg >>
I don't know first-hand; a member here posted that he knew the guy who was robbed (it was more like a pickpocket thing ... the coin was lifted when he was bumped in a bathroom; he eventually got the coin back).
Laura Sperber said in her report that the ANA was aware that KNOWN GANGS were on the bourse floor.
All I know is what I read in the forum ... >>
...short drive from Chicago, IL...it's probably safe to assume that 1 in 5 people on the bourse floor were currently or have been involved in some sort of criminal activity. That's just the way things work out there, it's survival of the non-legitest
<< <i>I had dinner last nite w/ head of security for The show, -& he said there were NO assaults Or robberies in the restrooms at all.
"Urban Legend" -- that''so all >>
False. I know the guy who was robbed in the restroom. He was bumped by one person and relieved of a PCGS box by another. The box was ditched in the trash, presumably for an accomplice to find. This was spotted by someone else in the restroom, who recovered the box and eventually reunited it with the distraught owner using the paperwork in the box. >>
GregL, Thanks for sharing the details on this. It sounds like the decision was reasonable at the time, and the demand went beyond the forecast. I agree the decision by the grading company to put the slab sequence number (#1, #2, etc.) on the insert was a key factor. It creates a "rarity", although the demand for this type of thing was an unknown at the time. Similarly, the demand for the limited quantity was hard to forecast. Now we know, limited quantity at a physical location and volatile demand can create a problem.
Good move to stop the Mint sales at the ANA after the Mint stopped their Denver sales.
GregL, first off thanks for posting here. Looks like you took time to review and begin addressing some of the issues, so thank you for that.
While I think the ANA has the responsibility to set the facts straight, the ANA also has a responsibility to apply common sense.
In other verticals and industry niches what all transpired could possibly be construed as fraud or conspiracy to commit fraud...at the very least an unethical attempt to manipulate market. To say the ANA is going to be standing off to the side on this is topic is just bad form, considering this transpired as a result of an ANA sanctioned event.
Mr. Lipton should be immediately suspended pending further review. This would at least demonstrate some ownership of the situation, until a review of ANA ethics can be performed to see whether or not (or how egregiously) they were violated.
If this was the NBA or NFL or MLB, there would already have been fines and suspensions.
While then ANA is much smaller, it's sense of right and wrong and ethics should not be any different.
My 2 cents....as an ANA member for many years, and as a father and husband and CEO of technology company.
What Mr. Lipton did was at the very minimum unethically wrong...
<< <i>In my opinion, the blame here goes to the the grading services (for creating demand for a special label) and the dealers who hype up that label.
Greg >>
Hey Greg, not a popular thing to say but I respect you for stating it. The grading services do appear to be the catalyst. And a few greedy dealers took the bait and ran with it. This debacle was directly caused by plastic and labels. This is not about the coin itself, after all anyone who wants one can get one from the comfort of their recliner like I did. There is no limit on these so no worry about a sell out.
Joseph J. Singleton - First Superintendent of the U.S. Branch Mint in Dahlonega Georgia
In my opinion, the blame here goes to the the grading services (for creating demand for a special label) and the dealers who hype up that label.
What a joke you are. The TPG's are to blame for good marketing? Their job is to sell stuff. Your job was to provide order and security. Maybe they should boycott all future ANA shows. I'd bet you'd pay them to attend in that case.
Next you'll be blaming Apple for creating demand for iPhones and McD's for Big Macs.
<< <i>should me immediately suspended pending further review. This would at least demonstrate some ownership of the situation, until a review of ANA ethics can be performed to see whether or not (or how egregiously) they were violated.
If this was the NBA or NFL or MLB, there would already have been fines and suspensions.
While then ANA is much smaller, it's sense of right and wrong and ethics should not be any different. >>
Whether or not there was any interference, conduct unbecoming or other questionable activity is up to the ANA to decide.
<< <i>a) Any member committing any unethical act in his or her dealings with others, unjustly defaming the character of any other member, interfering with the activities of the Association, committing a criminal offense, engaging in conduct unbecoming a member, engaging in conduct prejudicial to the welfare of the Association, engaging in conduct which brings disrepute upon the Association, violating any of the provisions of these bylaws or any codes of ethics adopted by the Board of Governors, or failing to respond to a complaint made pursuant to Section 3 of this Article III, shall be subject to discipline, up to and including expulsion, as hereinafter provided. >>
People who were there said so. That's confirmation. >>
who said Laura? The Queen of hyperbole? If there were gang members there, they were the lamest gang of all time. You'd know if there was gangs there. Black kids in hoodies is not a gang. Racist statements.
Comments
<< <i>I would have to blame the US Mint.
In 1904, they managed to mint over 6 million double eagles.
Showing up with only 500 per day is a joke. They could have showed up with 50,000 and let everyone have their fill, and still made a profit for the taxpayers.
Everyone likes easy money: Collectors, dealers, homeless, flippers ...
And that was the situation the US Mint created. >>
I agree with this. Maybe the "first sold" would still bring a premium, but if there were potentially 20,000 Kennedys available with ANA labels, few people would have stood in line 12 hours to get one.
I'd be interested to know if during the ANA Board meetings she voiced any objection to the process of distribution when this was discussed? Whether it was discussed at all and whether the earlier distribution issues (with the Reverse Proof Buffalo's) was even a consideration.
If the ANA just let the Mint do anything they wanted, that's a problem.
<< <i>She said if my memory is correct that she'd bought 100's of ana badges with plans to enlist high school kids but said that plan fell apart when they made it 18. >>
This is the crux of the problem. Why did the ANA sell hundreds of badges to dealers so they could game the system?
<< <i>
<< <i>She said if my memory is correct that she'd bought 100's of ana badges with plans to enlist high school kids but said that plan fell apart when they made it 18. >>
This is the crux of the problem. Why did the ANA sell hundreds of badges to dealers so they could game the system? >>
Extra badge for someone to be at your table = $50
100 of those badges = $5000 to the ANA
May have something to do with why they did it.
Michael Kittle Rare Coins --- 1908-S Indian Head Cent Grading Set --- No. 1 1909 Mint Set --- Kittlecoins on Facebook --- Long Beach Table 700
<< <i>Laura's massacre of the English language and her ill advised attempt at humor with her dyslexia comment not withstanding [...] >>
I think you may have been looking for ill-advised and notwithstanding.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>She said if my memory is correct that she'd bought 100's of ana badges with plans to enlist high school kids but said that plan fell apart when they made it 18. >>
This is the crux of the problem. Why did the ANA sell hundreds of badges to dealers so they could game the system? >>
Extra badge for someone to be at your table = $50
100 of those badges = $5000 to the ANA
May have something to do with why they did it. >>
That would be my guess. FIASCO!
<< <i>
<< <i>She said if my memory is correct that she'd bought 100's of ana badges with plans to enlist high school kids but said that plan fell apart when they made it 18. >>
This is the crux of the problem. Why did the ANA sell hundreds of badges to dealers so they could game the system? >>
At $50 per extra dealer badge, it represented a significant additional direct revenue stream for the ANA coffers. I doubt that the ANA cared how those badges were going to be used, as long as the use of them did not violate any ANA bylaws.
"Everything is on its way to somewhere. Everything." - George Malley, Phenomenon
http://www.american-legacy-coins.com
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>She said if my memory is correct that she'd bought 100's of ana badges with plans to enlist high school kids but said that plan fell apart when they made it 18. >>
This is the crux of the problem. Why did the ANA sell hundreds of badges to dealers so they could game the system? >>
At $50 per extra dealer badge, it represented a significant additional direct revenue stream for the ANA coffers. I doubt that the ANA cared how those badges were going to be used, as long as the use of them did not violate any ANA bylaws. >>
I could see selling 10 extra badges to a dealer, just so they could skim a little cream. But HUNDREDS? This is reprehensible. A true outrage.
"Everything is on its way to somewhere. Everything." - George Malley, Phenomenon
http://www.american-legacy-coins.com
"Everything is on its way to somewhere. Everything." - George Malley, Phenomenon
http://www.american-legacy-coins.com
I get it, bunch of low life beggars made a buck in a fancy coin show with this " Modern dreck". Next year a dress code needs to be in place. You can't dress all the homeless.
Unlike tickets, it's hard to justify making a law to punish resales as people need to resell all the time. "Guess what? I got a gold kennedy! Guess What? I got laid off today!"
perhaps a purchase contract to prevent paid orderers including people to be paid at a later date, also a clause that says the household limits will not be circumvented all subject to some type of penalties including loss of access to future hot items. The problem is that deep pockets can always find ways around this too.
Life is not fair and never will be no matter how hard you try to fix it. More rules is not the answer. The cost to enfore the above rules would cost to much and who gets to decide who is dressed proper.
A little thinking about possible issues that could arise would have been more helpful. When I buy something I generally run it thru a few good/bad/possible senarios and go from there. The clueless at the top did none of this as most could see how this was going to unfold everyday leading up to the show and the release.
I am against more rules, better preplanning to anticipate issues and corrective action would have been better.
NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!!
working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
RIP "BEAR"
<< <i>The 1794 Dollar is actually owned by a collector, who has no plans to sell the coin, as stated publicly already. The enterprise that bid on the coin in auction merely represented him. Please explain how this is a marketing ploy, other than being publicity for the enterprise that represented the owner. >>
That "collector" also happens to be a principal partner in the "enterprise" that bid on it for him. That "collector" also owned a 1913 V Nickel at one point in time, holding "long"...can't remember the details, but that amounted to a couple years if I recall. Regardless, the 1794 Dollar is a tangential topic to that at hand.
Laura is on the Board of the ANA, similar debacles to this have happened before at the ANA shows, and yet she acts disgusted and surprised by what happened. It doesn't take a genius to have predicted this fiasco. Accomplices to this disaster should be the ANA planners and the Board of Governors who allowed the US Mint to stage this in the first place.
-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
My sets: [280+ horse coins] :: [France Sowers] :: [Colorful world copper] :: [Beautiful world coins]
-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
<< <i>At $50 per extra dealer badge, it represented a significant additional direct revenue stream for the ANA coffers. I doubt that the ANA cared how those badges were going to be used, as long as the use of them did not violate any ANA bylaws. >>
ANA would have made out a lot better if they had paid people to wait in the Kennedy line.
Government is the great fiction through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else. - Bastiat
Michael Kittle Rare Coins --- 1908-S Indian Head Cent Grading Set --- No. 1 1909 Mint Set --- Kittlecoins on Facebook --- Long Beach Table 700
<< <i>If you make money standing in line you are responsible to pay the taxes or declare it. No one is responsible to issue a 1099 unless they pay in excess of $600 dollars in a given tax year to that "casual labor" employee. >>
This is true (although I think the dollar amount is greater). Also, if I'm not mistaken, I believe the person who hired all these bums can claim a deduction on his income taxes as a business expense. That would be the ultimate irony.
<< <i>If you make money standing in line you are responsible to pay the taxes or declare it. No one is responsible to issue a 1099 unless they pay in excess of $600 dollars in a given tax year to that "casual labor" employee. >>
I know the rule... and many individuals were paid more than $600 cash this week to stand in line.
Michael Kittle Rare Coins --- 1908-S Indian Head Cent Grading Set --- No. 1 1909 Mint Set --- Kittlecoins on Facebook --- Long Beach Table 700
<< <i>I will most likely never attend an ANA show in the future as people were actually getting trampled on. I have also canceled my membership. If they can not control a coin show properly and at some point actually condoned these actions I do not want to be part of it. >>
First of all, no one was trampled at the ANA show. That took place in Denver, at the Mint.
In my opinion, the blame here goes to the the grading services (for creating demand for a special label) and the dealers who hype up that label.
From all reports, the crowd control at the ANA show was FAR better than what was done at any of the retail locations. Yes, there were some inconveniences on the floor, but there was no public safety threat.
The ANA Board made the decision to stop sales at the ANA show once the Mint decided to stop sales at other locations. There was a large burden on our staff to assist with the crowds and the decision was made that if the Mint isn't going to put up with the hassle of selling them, we surely weren't going to either -- even though the Mint was planning on continuing to sell them.
Greg
Weird, wild stuff.
<< <i>I'd be interested to know if during the ANA Board meetings she voiced any objection to the process of distribution when this was discussed? Whether it was discussed at all and whether the earlier distribution issues (with the Reverse Proof Buffalo's) was even a consideration.
If the ANA just let the Mint do anything they wanted, that's a problem. >>
The ANA Board did not have any official discussions over the sale process, just some emails among the group.
As I've stated in other threads, we DID NOT allow the Mint to do whatever they wanted. Originally, their plan was to announce that the coins were going on sale at some point during the show. There would have been a stampede, people would have been hurt. We stopped that from happening (with the help of the Rosemont Fire Marshall) once we heard of that idea.
On the other hand... if we did not allow the sale of these coins from the start and the Mint said "We wanted to sell at the ANA convention, but they wouldn't let us...", there would be just as many complaints saying the ANA is to blame.
Greg
<< <i>This is the crux of the problem. Why did the ANA sell hundreds of badges to dealers so they could game the system? >>
Early bird badges are available to anyone who wishes to purchase them, not just dealer.
Greg
<< <i>Did the ANA sell these badges weeks before the show, or could you buy them at the show? Just curious. >>
Early bird badges are available for sale in advance of the convention as well as at the show itself.
Greg
<< <i>There was a robbery in one of the bathrooms in Chicago, and known gang members roaming the bourse floor.
Weird, wild stuff. >>
There was no robbery at the show -- at least there was none that was reported to the police.
As for "gang members", I think there was some stereotyping going on...
Greg
<< <i>Extra badge for someone to be at your table = $50
100 of those badges = $5000 to the ANA
May have something to do with why they did it. >>
First of all dealer badges were not being sold... early bird badges were. However, at some point, the supply of early bird badges ran out and dealer badges were used -- but indicating they were not actually dealers. The problem is that early bird badges are supposed to be available throughout the show -- and it was a matter of fairness that once we sold them at the start of the show, we could not randomly decide a point at which to stop selling them
Whatever revenue the ANA made from the badge sales are irrelevant due to the cost of the extra security we had to provide. Even so, $5000 in revenue does not make a significant difference to the ANA bottom line -- realize we are an organization with a $5+ million yearly budget and $72 million in assets.
Greg
<< <i>
<< <i>There was a robbery in one of the bathrooms in Chicago, and known gang members roaming the bourse floor.
Weird, wild stuff. >>
There was no robbery at the show -- at least there was none that was reported to the police.
As for "gang members", I think there was some stereotyping going on...
Greg >>
I don't know first-hand; a member here posted that he knew the guy who was robbed (it was more like a pickpocket thing ... the coin was lifted when he was bumped in a bathroom; he eventually got the coin back).
Laura Sperber said in her report that the ANA was aware that KNOWN GANGS were on the bourse floor.
All I know is what I read in the forum ...
<< <i>All I know is what I read in the forum ... >>
And I'm basing my comments on what I was told personally by our legal counsel who worked with our security team and spoke to the Rosemont Chief of Police.
Greg
<< <i>
<< <i>I will most likely never attend an ANA show in the future as people were actually getting trampled on. I have also canceled my membership. If they can not control a coin show properly and at some point actually condoned these actions I do not want to be part of it. >>
First of all, no one was trampled at the ANA show. That took place in Denver, at the Mint.
In my opinion, the blame here goes to the the grading services (for creating demand for a special label) and the dealers who hype up that label.
From all reports, the crowd control at the ANA show was FAR better than what was done at any of the retail locations. Yes, there were some inconveniences on the floor, but there was no public safety threat.
The ANA Board made the decision to stop sales at the ANA show once the Mint decided to stop sales at other locations. There was a large burden on our staff to assist with the crowds and the decision was made that if the Mint isn't going to put up with the hassle of selling them, we surely weren't going to either -- even though the Mint was planning on continuing to sell them.
Greg >>
Wasn't it known and discussed here that some dealers would be bringing/bussing in line standers even before PCGS announced any kind of grading criteria?
<< <i>
<< <i>All I know is what I read in the forum ... >>
And I'm basing my comments on what I was told personally by our legal counsel who worked with our security team and spoke to the Rosemont Chief of Police.
Greg >>
That's fine. So Laura Sperber was mistaken.
The guy who had his coin lifted apparently didn't report it because he got it back, I assume.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>There was a robbery in one of the bathrooms in Chicago, and known gang members roaming the bourse floor.
Weird, wild stuff. >>
There was no robbery at the show -- at least there was none that was reported to the police.
As for "gang members", I think there was some stereotyping going on...
Greg >>
I don't know first-hand; a member here posted that he knew the guy who was robbed (it was more like a pickpocket thing ... the coin was lifted when he was bumped in a bathroom; he eventually got the coin back).
Laura Sperber said in her report that the ANA was aware that KNOWN GANGS were on the bourse floor.
All I know is what I read in the forum ... >>
...short drive from Chicago, IL...it's probably safe to assume that 1 in 5 people on the bourse floor were currently or have been involved in some sort of criminal activity. That's just the way things work out there, it's survival of the non-legitest
Erik
<< <i>
<< <i>I had dinner last nite w/ head of security for
The show, -& he said there were NO assaults
Or robberies in the restrooms at all.
"Urban Legend" -- that''so all >>
False. I know the guy who was robbed in the restroom. He was bumped by one person and relieved of a PCGS box by another. The box was ditched in the trash, presumably for an accomplice to find. This was spotted by someone else in the restroom, who recovered the box and eventually reunited it with the distraught owner using the paperwork in the box. >>
Probably just membas of da Chicago Numismatic Brothas Koinz Klubz. Nothin to be worried about.
Chill, yo. Stop bein so white an full of fright at the site of a Koinz Luvin Brotha.
Nothing has changed in a 100 years, though back than when they released the Lincoln cent I doubt they had paid line sitters.
Lincoln cent release
Box of 20
<< <i>There was a robbery in one of the bathrooms in Chicago, and known gang members roaming the bourse floor.
Weird, wild stuff. >>
all unconfirmed. Lynch mob mentality
<< <i>
<< <i>There was a robbery in one of the bathrooms in Chicago, and known gang members roaming the bourse floor.
Weird, wild stuff. >>
all unconfirmed. Lynch mob mentality >>
John / messydesk has confirmed the bathroom robbery per his post quoted above.
<< <i>all unconfirmed. Lynch mob mentality >>
People who were there said so. That's confirmation.
Thanks for sharing the details on this.
It sounds like the decision was reasonable at the time, and the demand went beyond the forecast.
I agree the decision by the grading company to put the slab sequence number (#1, #2, etc.) on the insert was a key factor.
It creates a "rarity", although the demand for this type of thing was an unknown at the time.
Similarly, the demand for the limited quantity was hard to forecast.
Now we know, limited quantity at a physical location and volatile demand can create a problem.
Good move to stop the Mint sales at the ANA after the Mint stopped their Denver sales.
While I think the ANA has the responsibility to set the facts straight, the ANA also has a responsibility to apply common sense.
In other verticals and industry niches what all transpired could possibly be construed as fraud or conspiracy to commit fraud...at the very least an unethical attempt to manipulate market. To say the ANA is going to be standing off to the side on this is topic is just bad form, considering this transpired as a result of an ANA sanctioned event.
Mr. Lipton should be immediately suspended pending further review. This would at least demonstrate some ownership of the situation, until a review of ANA ethics can be performed to see whether or not (or how egregiously) they were violated.
If this was the NBA or NFL or MLB, there would already have been fines and suspensions.
While then ANA is much smaller, it's sense of right and wrong and ethics should not be any different.
My 2 cents....as an ANA member for many years, and as a father and husband and CEO of technology company.
What Mr. Lipton did was at the very minimum unethically wrong...
<< <i>In my opinion, the blame here goes to the the grading services (for creating demand for a special label) and the dealers who hype up that label.
Greg >>
Hey Greg, not a popular thing to say but I respect you for stating it. The grading services do appear to be the catalyst. And a few greedy dealers took the bait and ran with it. This debacle was directly caused by plastic and labels. This is not about the coin itself, after all anyone who wants one can get one from the comfort of their recliner like I did. There is no limit on these so no worry about a sell out.
Joseph J. Singleton - First Superintendent of the U.S. Branch Mint in Dahlonega Georgia
Findley Ridge Collection
About Findley Ridge
What a joke you are. The TPG's are to blame for good marketing? Their job is to sell stuff. Your job was to provide order and security. Maybe they should boycott all future ANA shows. I'd bet you'd pay them to attend in that case.
Next you'll be blaming Apple for creating demand for iPhones and McD's for Big Macs.
<< <i>should me immediately suspended pending further review. This would at least demonstrate some ownership of the situation, until a review of ANA ethics can be performed to see whether or not (or how egregiously) they were violated.
If this was the NBA or NFL or MLB, there would already have been fines and suspensions.
While then ANA is much smaller, it's sense of right and wrong and ethics should not be any different. >>
Here is a quote from the ANA ByLaws and Code of Ethics section on discipline.
Whether or not there was any interference, conduct unbecoming or other questionable activity is up to the ANA to decide.
<< <i>a) Any member committing any unethical act in his or her dealings with others, unjustly defaming the character of any other member, interfering with the activities of the Association, committing a criminal offense, engaging in conduct unbecoming a member, engaging in conduct prejudicial to the welfare of the Association, engaging in conduct which brings disrepute upon the Association, violating any of the provisions of these bylaws or any codes of ethics adopted by the Board of Governors, or failing to respond to a complaint made pursuant to Section 3 of this Article III, shall be subject to discipline, up to and including expulsion, as hereinafter provided. >>
<< <i>
<< <i>all unconfirmed. Lynch mob mentality >>
People who were there said so. That's confirmation. >>
who said Laura? The Queen of hyperbole? If there were gang members there, they were the lamest gang of all time. You'd know if there was gangs there. Black kids in hoodies is not a gang. Racist statements.