<< <i>I bought 10 ANA memberships /pre registered for church members so they could stand I line to buy the gold kennedys >>
Why? >>
The Show rules quoted by someone at ANA said you needed to have a membership and be preregistered in order to enter the ANA Show to purchase the gold kennedys..... you can say I was chumped after hearing others do not do the same >>
Not what I was asking. Why did you have 10 church members standing in line? Did they get coins? Were they for you?
Anyone who had someone else in line to buy additional coins for them is no less guilty than the "big guys." I have no empathy for all the "guilty" who did not get a coin. If these "proxy" buyers had ended up with the last few coins, they were effectively taking away from individual, legitimate buyers standing behind them. KARMA can be a beech. >>
As a kid growing up in the 60's I was drawn to coin collecting because I thought it was a 'cool' hobby. The history of the coins, the hunt for key dates, the knowledge of grading, all contributed to me being proud to be a coin collector.
There is nothing about the gold Kennedy release @ Mint's and ANA that makes me proud to be associated with the hobby. To me its as simple as that. The events at the ANA and mint's during this release clearly moved the hobby in the wrong direction.
Not that I'm surprised. Money will do that. I don't know the answers or solutions. I just know that this direction of creating instant 'rarities' by putting modern coins in one of a kind slabs isn't good for the hobby that I knew.
<< <i>First I could care less about the modern Kennedy's, but the whole mint sell at the show was going to be a disaster from the get go. Anyone with half a brain could see this coming. I see no reason to get mad at the few dealers for making some money. They adapted to the sorry set of rules the mint imposed. Why in the world the mint was going to keep the numbers low at the start on a coin they are going to mint to demand is beyond me. They should have come with 15k or more of them and sell how ever many the people had money for. Don't rea;;y see any reason for Laura to stir the pot on this one. It did not hurt her in the least. She does not sell moderns. >>
First reasonable responce I've seen. I saw a Philly News clip and it seemed that the entire gist of the clip was to tell of the mad rush to get the Coin so profit could be made . It went on to say that anyone could get online with the US Mint and get 5 of the Coins versus just one if they stood in line. The entire clip was nothing more than a free ad for the US Mint. Given the first day orders it may have worked, although it may have backfired on them from looking at the drop in second day orders. And how come there's no updates for day three and beyond? Have online sales been totally killed by the onsite buying frenzy?
I know I canceled my 5 Coins. These doggs are dead just like everything else these days in the numismatic world.
Call it sour grapes, but it seems a little ironic that a grading company will label these by the order in which they sold, but neither grading co would label the '08 rev of 07 Silver Eagle that was sent in to Coin World as "discovery coin".
HH
Need the following OBW rolls to complete my 46-64 Roosevelt roll set: 1947-P & D; 1948-D; 1949-P & S; 1950-D & S; and 1952-S. Any help locating any of these OBW rolls would be gratefully appreciated!
initially I thought this was disgusting. Having now heard these were paid ACTORS I say, Bravo!!
Way to the get attention of the general public, TV, news, media. Gorilla Marketing at its finest. If you asked 10,000 random people on the street to look at the $10M coin she sold, 9,999 of them would laugh; some old, nicked up, tarnished piece of metal. This is a space Laura does not compete in and does not understand. Sour grapes.
Would I do it again? No, for safety and fairness reasons. should it be allowed to happen again? Heck no!!
Ban for life? Hardly. Stop being such grumpy, old men. Lipton outsmarted everyone and the system. Don't begrudge him that. Do I like it? No!!! But, why didn't I think of this?
I'm sure I'll be scorned for saying so, but Legend is a part of the "greed" mechanism that is so rightly disparaged in the post. I have said as much before(and it's fallen on deaf ears) about how dealers/collectors will pretty much do whatever it takes to get what they want, this is just an extreme example of that and, unfortunately, out in the public domain like never before. most of the back-stabbing and treachery takes place behind closed doors and never sees the light of day leading many to believe it never takes place at all. here's a headline --- it does!!
dealers can point fingers if they want, but it is one of "them" who is the problem and it is the mechanism of how they do "business" that is at the root of things.
<< <i>I'm sure I'll be scorned for saying so, but Legend is a part of the "greed" mechanism that is so rightly disparaged in the post. I have said as much before(and it's fallen on deaf ears) about how dealers/collectors will pretty much do whatever it takes to get what they want, this is just an extreme example of that and, unfortunately, out in the public domain like never before. most of the back-stabbing and treachery takes place behind closed doors and never sees the light of day leading many to believe it never takes place at all. here's a headline --- it does!!
dealers can point fingers if they want, but it is one of "them" who is the problem and it is the mechanism of how they do "business" that is at the root of things. >>
What on earth? Is this supposed to derail the thread to be against Legend? Say what you will but I feel they help the hobby. There aren't many that are trying to irradiate coin doctors from this hobby so collectors don't get burned. And all this "greed" mechanism you speak of is called BUSINESS.
All coins kept in bank vaults. PCGS Registries Box of 20 SeaEagleCoins: 11/14/54-4/5/12. Miss you Larry!
Direct quote from article: "What really gets me going besides this garbage about buying the coins from the Mint-is that someone paid a reported $100,000.00 for the very first coin graded. Maybe they were dislexic? You buy the coin, NOT the holder!"
I would say more, but I'd probably get bashed for saying negative things about a venerable dealer. >>
If the sale is true, he bought neither one. He bought a little piece of paper/cardstock.
<< <i>So.... who will be brave enough to actually NAME the dealers involved???
Shouldn't we all know so that we might avoid doing business with those that cause the hobby harm in this manner?? >>
He is named ATS in the NGC US coin forum on the first page. Hard to miss. A biography of this large dealer is also included.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
I bet if the Mint hadn't opened up at the ANA and stuck with there own facilities there wouldn't be so much chest thumping. Nothing about the outrage on either side seems to be based in collecting. The coin is worthless Franklin Mint garbage, won't be worth melt in 6 months, not fair distribution ( why? Can't catch a FS label? ). This is a PCGS board and folks are complaining about collecting labels? I get it, bunch of low life beggars made a buck in a fancy coin show with this " Modern dreck". Next year a dress code needs to be in place. You can't dress all the homeless. I suppose if the Saddle Ridge hoard had been released at an ANA show folks would have been quietly strolling to the show, pipe in hand with 50 K in hand and honestly that's exactly what a show like this needs. Just imagine all that well dressed money, every dealer there would have been happy to see the line. Point is, collecting doesn't need to be the impetus for the argument for why this was such a disaster, it was cash and more cash following a label but it is hard to complain too much about that while posting on a PCGS coin forum and take yourself seriously.
I saw a news video from Denver where homeless people were given $20 and a prepaid debit card with the exact amount to pay for the coin to stand in line for hours upon hours. This is little different than in the olden days where saps like Edgar Allan Poe were juiced up with liquor on election day and dragged out to vote numerous times. It's inhumane. Now I don't know everything about the hobby or the industry, but isn't the Professional Numismatics Guild responsible for upholding the standards of coin dealers? Where are they in this? Are the dealers who exploited workers for this speculative frenzy members of the PNG? Will the PNG hold hearings on the matter and discipline dealer members who played a role in this? Will the PNG move to enact standards within the organization to prevent such a thing from occurring again? Forthright action is required on this to not only prevent the exploitation of the homeless population by coin dealers, but to protect the rights of the homeless against further deprivations by powerful individuals and organizations who may be getting ideas as a result of these ignoble actions. Barring any voluntary action on such plaintive pleas for accountability could well end up with civil action to redress the wrongs.
Clearly the ANA and the Mint had to have conversations/negotiations regarding the release of these bullion pieces months ago. PCGS obviously had a role in the marketing strategy with all the show slabs being ready to go as well. All the "first coin, first day" hype blew up in everyone's face. It's fair to conclude things didn't go as planned. What did result puts all parties in a negative light and harms the hobby.
What makes this even worse is the fact that persons close to the center of the coin collecting universe have been named in the aftermath.
The Dealers who've weighed in (in this thread) suggesting that they're ok with the end result of this abomination really need to do some soul searching. Not being able to see the greedy nature of the results is a clear sign of denial.
The Mint should never again trust others to be involved in the launch of a new product. It should take place online only and with some randomness allocated to "a limited" release. I can understand why all parties involved in this release did what they did, but failing to anticipate the exploitation for gain was predictable.
If you do what you always did, you get what you always got.
<< <i>I bet if the Mint hadn't opened up at the ANA and stuck with there own facilities there wouldn't be so much chest thumping. Nothing about the outrage on either side seems to be based in collecting. The coin is worthless Franklin Mint garbage, won't be worth melt in 6 months, not fair distribution ( why? Can't catch a FS label? ). This is a PCGS board and folks are complaining about collecting labels? I get it, bunch of low life beggars made a buck in a fancy coin show with this " Modern dreck". Next year a dress code needs to be in place. You can't dress all the homeless. I suppose if the Saddle Ridge hoard had been released at an ANA show folks would have been quietly strolling to the show, pipe in hand with 50 K in hand and honestly that's exactly what a show like this needs. Just imagine all that well dressed money, every dealer there would have been happy to see the line. Point is, collecting doesn't need to be the impetus for the argument for why this was such a disaster, it was cash and more cash following a label but it is hard to complain too much about that while posting on a PCGS coin forum and take yourself seriously. >>
I have a fantasy. a future devoid of paid line standers and paid online orderers.
That's why it is not a fair distribution. The deep pockets can scoop up large quantities while the rest of us watch. Household limits are lowered for the same reason.
I want to make my own. Yes, FS is at play here, bfor me ut not for everyone. The rest should not be forced to turn to ebay to find what they need. The mint should care about how many collectors are squeezed into the secondary market by deep pockets scooping up large numbers by paid people.
I'll use someone's playoff ticket example.
There may be "unlimited mintage" here but the mintage is limited to how many they can make by Dec. 31 or when they have to switch capacity over to minting 2015 issues (AGE / Buffs).
If some deep pockets come in and fill the line for playoff tickets, the majority can wind up on stub hub for a markup. Is that a fair distribution?
Yes, many here including myself have first day orders in, however I see this as a freight train heading toward a ravine no one can figure out how to build a bridge across.
Unlike tickets, it's hard to justify making a law to punish resales as people need to resell all the time. "Guess what? I got a gold kennedy! Guess What? I got laid off today!"
perhaps a purchase contract to prevent paid orderers including people to be paid at a later date, also a clause that says the household limits will not be circumvented all subject to some type of penalties including loss of access to future hot items. The problem is that deep pockets can always find ways around this too.
The public shouldn't frequent the deep pockets with lots of hot items but most don't care the aftermarket price is being adversely affected by these practices. I alo refer back to the deep pocket arms race (the ravine) that affects availability, retail and wholesale prices, and whether collectors have fair access to what they need for themselves. This is the "not a fair distribution" part of it that is of real concern. Not so much the FS aspects, but that is at play too. (but if I make the label for myself and not for flipping, what's the issue? Although, in the interest of protecting end collectors, if PCGS gets rid of "first strike" and other special time or quantity limited labels on "hot items" then I would be happy instead of cry. However, availability changes and aftermarket price changes from deep pockets making the scoop is still the real issue.
I don't understand why people are so angry about this. This is a mint to demand issue. Everyone that wants one will eventually be able to get one. No, not everyone may not get a fancy label, but less than 5% on this forum have any interest in collecting (vs. flipping for a profit) those labels.
As for Legend, it seems to be part of a long running war against moderns, and modern dealers. I remember when she was on this forum and every pro modern, ultra-modern thread got her ire up. She often actively flamed here against the many honest, passionate collectors of said coins. So it is not surprising where the sides are lining up.
Yes, things could have been better, but I still don't understand the outrage. Banned for life? For what? For trying to make a profit? Is it all that different from what online dealers have done here on the forum, offering to buy new mint issues above issue price, a day or a week before the gates open? Should those forum member dealers also be banned for life? Isn't it basically the same thing, albeit entirely over the Internet?
<< <i>Yes, things could have been better, but I still don't understand the outrage. Banned for life? For what? For trying to make a profit? >>
Its the way in which it was carried out. If you didn't witness in person, or read all the personal accounts or news stories of what went on, you cannot understand. >>
So, where do we draw the line on acceptable bending of the rules in procuring inventory? Do we include those who use family to order from the mint when there are household limits. Do we include buying ANA memberships for church members to get in line at the show?
I don't buy the "it's a modern issue problem." It could easily have been 10,000 pristine Morgans recently discovered in a Mint vault.
Government is the great fiction through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else. - Bastiat
<< <i>So, where do we draw the line on acceptable bending of the rules in procuring inventory? Do we include those who use family to order from the mint when there are household limits. Do we include buying ANA memberships for church members to get in line at the show? >>
There are quite a few smart forum members in this community.
Seems like a fair way would be a "random drawing" on site. One entry with registration. Just couple it with buying procedures ensuring the persons identity, their own funds being used to procure the item, and I believe you will have the answer.
You cant prevent that item from being resold later, however, it will eliminate the proxies from the line that cant afford to complete the transaction with their own funds.
Initial sales by the Mint should be through official Mint outlets only. Sales by the Mint at secondary non Mint outlets should occur 30 days after the start date. Never did understand this coin show release concept. By the way, when did the release at coin show thing start?
<< <i>I don't understand why people are so angry about this. This is a mint to demand issue. Everyone that wants one will eventually be able to get one. No, not everyone may not get a fancy label, but less than 5% on this forum have any interest in collecting (vs. flipping for a profit) those labels.
As for Legend, it seems to be part of a long running war against moderns, and modern dealers. I remember when she was on this forum and every pro modern, ultra-modern thread got her ire up. She often actively flamed here against the many honest, passionate collectors of said coins. So it is not surprising where the sides are lining up.
Yes, things could have been better, but I still don't understand the outrage. Banned for life? For what? For trying to make a profit? Is it all that different from what online dealers have done here on the forum, offering to buy new mint issues above issue price, a day or a week before the gates open? Should those forum member dealers also be banned for life? Isn't it basically the same thing, albeit entirely over the Internet? >>
the HOF coins weren't so bad, but similar things happened?
Is it any so different? Well, when the scale of the efforts are considered then, yes, it is different there. Also, when one considers this can continue with deep pockets upping their efforts, yes it is different.
However, I will cop to it and say, on the little scale, the efforts are the same. I am as guilty as the next guy in that there are friends and family networks (I have none of those now and only had 1 before.)
It's now Officially Out Of Hand. That's the problem. And with no control, It Can Get Hugely Worse at the hands of deep pockets.
The system needs to change.
I still maintain a lottery won't work as paid lottery ticket buyers can skew the odds even more against the individuals.
As for "using own funds," money can simply be given off site. Those actors' names are in someone's hands who hired them. Theft? They have their verified info, right? It's easy to track them down and arrest them. So, money can be given off site and the coin picked up off site. That is also not a solution.
In her normal fashion, Laura mangled the English language. Status quo.
In this instance, I agree with the general message -- these dealers should be banned for life from ANA shows and professional organizations they have embarassed.
But, I could have done with less of the throwing of stones and insults. The comment about persons looking as if they came out from under rocks was particularly ironic -- the few times I have seen Laura at shows she always looks sloppily dressed and somewhat vagabond-ish (that's a glass house you're living in there). Furthermore, someone with her lack of spelling skills and writing skills should not be throwing around diagnoses of "dislexia" -- a comment which, in all of its intended glory, made her look all the more foolish.
Carry on...
-Brandon -~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~- My sets: [290+ horse coins] :: [France Sowers] :: [Colorful world copper] :: [Beautiful world coins] -~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
What happened to being on the US Mint mailing list and being a US Mint customer? Period. The demand here is GREED and flipping coins and that is the problem. Period. Deep pockets and the TPGs Inserts only create an illusion that makes it worse for all. .............................Big part of the "whole" problem is that there isn't much left to this "hobby" that being coin collecting and people are buying into what is left "the illusion" First Strikes, Over paid Baseball Players, signatures, doilies, green holder, black holder, NGC, PCGS graded, Green bean, Gold bean, Who founded NGC? NGC coins are cheaper, what color an insert is, lying, over priced coins, true rarity and what a joke that one is. Nobody collects for the sheer enjoyment sans the few on these boards. The deep pocket guys are foolish their money supports their own foolishness. One day they too will start crying about it. One of my favorite coins came from the US Mint in 1971 in the mail an Ike dollar 40% silver cost me $3. How exciting it was that day! The whole thing has become a fools errand.
<< <i>What happened to being on the US Mint mailing list and being a US Mint customer? Period. The demand here is GREED and flipping coins and that is the problem. Period. Deep pockets and the TPGs Inserts only create an illusion that makes it worse for all. >>
Will PCGS be offering, "First Strike" label inserts for these?
Initial sales by the Mint should be through official Mint outlets only. Sales by the Mint at secondary non Mint outlets should occur 30 days after the start date. Never did understand this coin show release concept. By the way, when did the release at coin show thing start? >>
The Mint used to have a policy that "If an item has a household order limit, then it can't be sold at a sales counter. Once the household order limit is removed, it can."
This changed with the 2013 Reverse Proof Buffalo. After its sales success at the ANA last year, Acting Director Peterson was quoted in the press as saying it was a good thing to have the amount of sales. I never saw this "paid line standers" coming and I wouldn't have predicted t would be this bad this fast. This is why I think it will get worse from here. Deep Pockets can do a lot with even "unlimited" mintage coins minted through the end of 2014.
Also, even back for the 2013 RP Buffs, I was complaining it was not a "fair distribution" as it sold only to those who were able to show up at a location in person. The mint responded here with lightning fast ship times... true 5 star service I wish they would have now and into the future even if in person sales are halted.
Anyway, the first step to righting the wrongs is to go back to online only sales. All suggestions may not work, but all suggestions welcome. Consider it crowd sourcing a solution to the problem.
JakeSherlock - if you are reading this - thanks for the disclosure that you are into marketing and having a good show that's well attended. Hmmmm..... how may of those in line were later on the bourse floor? How many also bought from other sellers on the bourse floor? If they are paid to stand in line, but not required to visit the other dealers... do they go home? Go in? What percentage of those paid line standers turned into ANA show visitors elsewhere in the show? If I changed 1 person it is all worth it? Well, for life changing things, sure.... but would changing 1 line stander into a collector be worth the rest of the junk and the injustice of paid line standers? Not to me. It would only be worth it if most all had mutinied and turned into buying them for themselves and giving the other people's money back to the people paying them. This is not likely to happen now or in the future.
These coins are being called both bullion and a collectable in this thread. If a person is considering the coin bullion they don't have a dog in this fight, they are looking to flip. If it is a collectable, well, that's what makes a collectable, limited availability. Just because everybody can get on line and order one doesn't mean everybody is going to get one. It doesn't work both ways, bullion is bullion and everybody can get some. Collectables are limited in their scope both in number and availability, not everybody can get them. Unless.......... IMZ corp has been banned in the USA because they make AK parts and rifles, I wish I had a pile of AKs right now for sure. Common rifle that will soon be worth huge money in the right hands. I am sure the people who can afford to speculate are buying in, I would love to buy an AK today but I can't and if I want one later I guess I'll pay up. I guess it just isn't fair a little like bullion that some folks see as being a collectable.
<< <i>Yes a fiasco. From my understanding the mint is not legally allowed to hold an actual lottery to determine who can buy one.
However they should be able to do what I have seen many sports teams do to orderly sell playoff game tickets.
They give out wristbands to everyone who lines up. Each wristband has a different number.
Then there is a random generator to determine at which number to start selling to.
This causes no rush to get wristbands. There is no first in line is first to buy. And everyone who shows up has an equal chance to be the first one to buy. >>
As posted in others threads, those with deep pockets can fill the wristband lines with enough people such that the odds heavily favor them getting the tickets. Also, there is an off chance no collector gets the and the paid line standers get them all.
Lotteries won't work for the above reasons.
Go back to online only for hot items. >>
Enthusiastic collector of British pre-decimal and Canadian decimal circulation coins.
Folks, these are not a limited mintage issue. The only thing being limited is the number of initial profiteers. Don't complain about the guy in front of you at the buffet taking the last two steaks unless there are no more steaks on the grill.
Government is the great fiction through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else. - Bastiat
<< <i>If the ANA wants to make things better and safer for both the dealers and actual coin collectors, they should no longer allow the US Mint to have new products released at the show. >>
I will never again attend an ANA sponsored show if the US Mint is continued to be allowed to release new products. As an ANA member I have to ask the ANA why do you allow the US Mint to release new products at your shows when you know that in the past the same greedy dealers have stuffed the lines to purchase US Mint new releases causing serious issues. The ANA needs to take a hard look at this issue, otherwise attendance from dealers and collectors will surely go down.
Enthusiastic collector of British pre-decimal and Canadian decimal circulation coins.
<< <i>Folks, these are not a limited mintage issue. >>
True - but we all know at some point the US Mint cuts off what they produce, based on demand, so late arrivals sometimes don't get anything.
Also, some like to collect labels. Maybe not show labels, but maybe FS or ER labels. Early orders receive their coins quicker. They are able to get those labels.
<< <i> Don't complain about the guy in front of you at the buffet taking the last two steaks unless there are no more steaks on the grill. >>
You will complain if you are hungry. And don't try it in Jersey
"This fiasco does NOT help our hobby in any way. I will debate this with anyone. How many people will be burnt buy buying these coins? We will LOSE more future collectors then what we could have gained. Your not a genuis to buy an overhyped coin thats brand new and the value is soley based upon the holder!"
and replace it with:
"This fiasco does NOT help our hobby in any way. I will debate this with anyone. How many people will be burnt by buying these coins? We will LOSE more future collectors than we could have gained. You are not a genuis to buy an overhyped coin that is brand new, where value is based solely upon the holder!"
<< <i>Her marketing ploy cost $10M. Litpon's only cost $100K. Maybe she got out thought.
To classify and denigrate all modern collectors as junk is shameless. To each their own. >>
I think it is comically absurd for you to compare the marketing cost of the 1st 1794 Dollar struck, to the marketing cost of the 1st 2014 Gold Kennedy Half graded.
People with dyslexia reverse or mix up letters visually. They get things backwards in other words. Buying the slab or label instead of the coin is getting things backwards.
I thought it was a clever joke on her part , that appears to have sailed over a few heads . Some coin weenies might be too literal minded to actually recognize a joke .
<< <i> Don't complain about the guy in front of you at the buffet taking the last two steaks unless there are no more steaks on the grill. >>
You will complain if you are hungry. And don't try it in Jersey >>
And I believe it is this hunger for profit that not only drove the actions at the ANA but is also driving a lot of the complaining. This has been my whole point in these threads.
Government is the great fiction through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else. - Bastiat
<< <i>People with dyslexia reverse or mix up letters visually. They get things backwards in other words. Buying the slab or label instead of the coin is getting things backwards.
I thought it was a clever joke on her part , that appears to have sailed over a few heads . Some coin weenies might be too literal minded to actually recognize a joke . >>
Or maybe that they thought the coin cost $1,000.00 instead of $100,000 ...
In 1904, they managed to mint over 6 million double eagles.
Showing up with only 500 per day is a joke. They could have showed up with 50,000 and let everyone have their fill, and still made a profit for the taxpayers.
You know what was really sad, there was a lady in line with a 7 month old baby all night 12 hours +. She said her parents were dealers at the show. She indicated that they were only trying to get 200 coins. She had no blanket for the baby and it did get a little chilly. I went to the show by myself, and drank to many starbuck Mocha drinks which meant I couldn't sleep and ended up going to see what was going on and arrived at 11:58 pm Tuesday night. I was taking to this guy and as it tuned out, he is one of my favorite forum members and was also alone. For e the best part of the show was hanging out with him...crazy right? Anyways, the lady was at the show behind the dealer table baby in tow and indicated she only got 85 coins. Now this lady talked a lot seemingly bragging. She said if my memory is correct that she'd bought 100's of ana badges with plans to enlist high school kids but said that plan fell apart when they made it 18. I thought she said they ended up giving many of them away. Could she have been BSing about things, sure...Did she have a ton of these in their dealer case, absolutely. Now I expect in the grand scheme of things she would be a small fry...but that poor baby shouldnt have been out there. It got a little dangerous when the cops caused the stampede.
In 1904, they managed to mint over 6 million double eagles.
Showing up with only 500 per day is a joke. They could have showed up with 50,000 and let everyone have their fill, and still made a profit for the taxpayers.
And that was the situation the US Mint created. >>
Whether it was 500 or 50,000 wouldn't have addressed the order of sale issue in the secondary market. While the Mint didn't label the coins in the order of sale, a situation was created where they could be labeled which created the opportunity.
Comments
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>I bought 10 ANA memberships /pre registered for church members so they could stand I line to buy the gold kennedys >>
Why? >>
The Show rules quoted by someone at ANA said you needed to have a membership and be preregistered in order to enter the ANA Show to purchase the gold kennedys..... you can say I was chumped after hearing others do not do the same >>
Not what I was asking. Why did you have 10 church members standing in line? Did they get coins? Were they for you?
Anyone who had someone else in line to buy additional coins for them is no less guilty than the "big guys." I have no empathy for all the "guilty" who did not get a coin. If these "proxy" buyers had ended up with the last few coins, they were effectively taking away from individual, legitimate buyers standing behind them. KARMA can be a beech. >>
+1...............
There is nothing about the gold Kennedy release @ Mint's and ANA that makes me proud to be associated with the hobby. To me its as simple as that. The events at the ANA and mint's during this release clearly moved the hobby in the wrong direction.
Not that I'm surprised. Money will do that.
I don't know the answers or solutions.
I just know that this direction of creating instant 'rarities' by putting modern coins in one of a kind slabs isn't good for the hobby that I knew.
Greg Hansen, Melbourne, FL Click here for any current EBAY auctions Multiple "Circle of Trust" transactions over 14 years on forum
<< <i>First I could care less about the modern Kennedy's, but the whole mint sell at the show was going to be a disaster from the get go. Anyone with half a brain could see this coming. I see no reason to get mad at the few dealers for making some money. They adapted to the sorry set of rules the mint imposed. Why in the world the mint was going to keep the numbers low at the start on a coin they are going to mint to demand is beyond me. They should have come with 15k or more of them and sell how ever many the people had money for. Don't rea;;y see any reason for Laura to stir the pot on this one. It did not hurt her in the least. She does not sell moderns. >>
First reasonable responce I've seen. I saw a Philly News clip and it seemed that the entire gist of the clip was to tell of the mad rush
to get the Coin so profit could be made . It went on to say that anyone could get online with the US Mint and get 5 of the Coins versus
just one if they stood in line. The entire clip was nothing more than a free ad for the US Mint. Given the first day orders it may have
worked, although it may have backfired on them from looking at the drop in second day orders. And how come there's no updates for
day three and beyond? Have online sales been totally killed by the onsite buying frenzy?
I know I canceled my 5 Coins. These doggs are dead just like everything else these days in the numismatic world.
but neither grading co would label the '08 rev of 07 Silver Eagle that was sent in to Coin World as "discovery coin".
HH
1947-P & D; 1948-D; 1949-P & S; 1950-D & S; and 1952-S.
Any help locating any of these OBW rolls would be gratefully appreciated!
Way to the get attention of the general public, TV, news, media. Gorilla Marketing at its finest. If you asked 10,000 random people on the street to look at the $10M coin she sold, 9,999 of them would laugh; some old, nicked up, tarnished piece of metal. This is a space Laura does not compete in and does not understand. Sour grapes.
Would I do it again? No, for safety and fairness reasons. should it be allowed to happen again? Heck no!!
Ban for life? Hardly. Stop being such grumpy, old men. Lipton outsmarted everyone and the system. Don't begrudge him that. Do I like it? No!!! But, why didn't I think of this?
dealers can point fingers if they want, but it is one of "them" who is the problem and it is the mechanism of how they do "business" that is at the root of things.
<< <i>I'm sure I'll be scorned for saying so, but Legend is a part of the "greed" mechanism that is so rightly disparaged in the post. I have said as much before(and it's fallen on deaf ears) about how dealers/collectors will pretty much do whatever it takes to get what they want, this is just an extreme example of that and, unfortunately, out in the public domain like never before. most of the back-stabbing and treachery takes place behind closed doors and never sees the light of day leading many to believe it never takes place at all. here's a headline --- it does!!
dealers can point fingers if they want, but it is one of "them" who is the problem and it is the mechanism of how they do "business" that is at the root of things. >>
What on earth? Is this supposed to derail the thread to be against Legend? Say what you will but I feel they help the hobby.
There aren't many that are trying to irradiate coin doctors from this hobby so collectors don't get burned. And all this "greed" mechanism you speak of is called BUSINESS.
PCGS Registries
Box of 20
SeaEagleCoins: 11/14/54-4/5/12. Miss you Larry!
<< <i>She certainly has a point,
Direct quote from article: "What really gets me going besides this garbage about buying the coins from the Mint-is that someone paid a reported $100,000.00 for the very first coin graded. Maybe they were dislexic? You buy the coin, NOT the holder!"
I would say more, but I'd probably get bashed for saying negative things about a venerable dealer. >>
If the sale is true, he bought neither one. He bought a little piece of paper/cardstock.
<< <i>
If the sale is true, he bought neither one. He bought a little piece of paper/cardstock. >>
The word you are looking for is "koolaid"
Shouldn't we all know so that we might avoid doing business with those that cause the hobby harm in this manner??
<< <i>So.... who will be brave enough to actually NAME the dealers involved???
Shouldn't we all know so that we might avoid doing business with those that cause the hobby harm in this manner?? >>
He is named ATS in the NGC US coin forum on the first page. Hard to miss. A biography of this large dealer is also included.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
This is a PCGS board and folks are complaining about collecting labels?
I get it, bunch of low life beggars made a buck in a fancy coin show with this " Modern dreck". Next year a dress code needs to be in place. You can't dress all the homeless.
I suppose if the Saddle Ridge hoard had been released at an ANA show folks would have been quietly strolling to the show, pipe in hand with 50 K in hand and honestly that's exactly what a show like this needs. Just imagine all that well dressed money, every dealer there would have been happy to see the line.
Point is, collecting doesn't need to be the impetus for the argument for why this was such a disaster, it was cash and more cash following a label but it is hard to complain too much about that while posting on a PCGS coin forum and take yourself seriously.
<< <i>
<< <i>So.... who will be brave enough to actually NAME the dealers involved???
Shouldn't we all know so that we might avoid doing business with those that cause the hobby harm in this manner?? >>
He is named ATS in the NGC US coin forum on the first page. Hard to miss. A biography of this large dealer is also included. >>
Two other dealers were already named in other threads .. you the one who bussed in people to stand in line At the Chicago ANA Show
Indian Head $10 Gold Set Album
As these coins are our hobbies Tickle Me Elmo & Cabbage Patch Kids Dolls.
I think all the numbers are phony . No way a person actually paid 100k for that coin.
I suppose a company could sell a coin to a person for 100k who then "paid" the company 100k for totally unrelated consulting fees.
Now I don't know everything about the hobby or the industry, but isn't the Professional Numismatics Guild responsible for upholding the standards of coin dealers? Where are they in this? Are the dealers who exploited workers for this speculative frenzy members of the PNG? Will the PNG hold hearings on the matter and discipline dealer members who played a role in this? Will the PNG move to enact standards within the organization to prevent such a thing from occurring again?
Forthright action is required on this to not only prevent the exploitation of the homeless population by coin dealers, but to protect the rights of the homeless against further deprivations by powerful individuals and organizations who may be getting ideas as a result of these ignoble actions.
Barring any voluntary action on such plaintive pleas for accountability could well end up with civil action to redress the wrongs.
Clearly the ANA and the Mint had to have conversations/negotiations regarding the release of these bullion pieces months ago. PCGS obviously had a role in the marketing strategy with all the show slabs being ready to go as well. All the "first coin, first day" hype blew up in everyone's face. It's fair to conclude things didn't go as planned. What did result puts all parties in a negative light and harms the hobby.
What makes this even worse is the fact that persons close to the center of the coin collecting universe have been named in the aftermath.
The Dealers who've weighed in (in this thread) suggesting that they're ok with the end result of this abomination really need to do some soul searching. Not being able to see the greedy nature of the results is a clear sign of denial.
The Mint should never again trust others to be involved in the launch of a new product. It should take place online only and with some randomness allocated to "a limited" release. I can understand why all parties involved in this release did what they did, but failing to anticipate the exploitation for gain was predictable.
<< <i>I bet if the Mint hadn't opened up at the ANA and stuck with there own facilities there wouldn't be so much chest thumping. Nothing about the outrage on either side seems to be based in collecting. The coin is worthless Franklin Mint garbage, won't be worth melt in 6 months, not fair distribution ( why? Can't catch a FS label? ).
This is a PCGS board and folks are complaining about collecting labels?
I get it, bunch of low life beggars made a buck in a fancy coin show with this " Modern dreck". Next year a dress code needs to be in place. You can't dress all the homeless.
I suppose if the Saddle Ridge hoard had been released at an ANA show folks would have been quietly strolling to the show, pipe in hand with 50 K in hand and honestly that's exactly what a show like this needs. Just imagine all that well dressed money, every dealer there would have been happy to see the line.
Point is, collecting doesn't need to be the impetus for the argument for why this was such a disaster, it was cash and more cash following a label but it is hard to complain too much about that while posting on a PCGS coin forum and take yourself seriously. >>
I have a fantasy. a future devoid of paid line standers and paid online orderers.
That's why it is not a fair distribution. The deep pockets can scoop up large quantities while the rest of us watch. Household limits are lowered for the same reason.
I want to make my own. Yes, FS is at play here, bfor me ut not for everyone. The rest should not be forced to turn to ebay to find what they need. The mint should care about how many collectors are squeezed into the secondary market by deep pockets scooping up large numbers by paid people.
I'll use someone's playoff ticket example.
There may be "unlimited mintage" here but the mintage is limited to how many they can make by Dec. 31 or when they have to switch capacity over to minting 2015 issues (AGE / Buffs).
If some deep pockets come in and fill the line for playoff tickets, the majority can wind up on stub hub for a markup. Is that a fair distribution?
Yes, many here including myself have first day orders in, however I see this as a freight train heading toward a ravine no one can figure out how to build a bridge across.
Unlike tickets, it's hard to justify making a law to punish resales as people need to resell all the time. "Guess what? I got a gold kennedy! Guess What? I got laid off today!"
perhaps a purchase contract to prevent paid orderers including people to be paid at a later date, also a clause that says the household limits will not be circumvented all subject to some type of penalties including loss of access to future hot items. The problem is that deep pockets can always find ways around this too.
The public shouldn't frequent the deep pockets with lots of hot items but most don't care the aftermarket price is being adversely affected by these practices. I alo refer back to the deep pocket arms race (the ravine) that affects availability, retail and wholesale prices, and whether collectors have fair access to what they need for themselves. This is the "not a fair distribution" part of it that is of real concern. Not so much the FS aspects, but that is at play too. (but if I make the label for myself and not for flipping, what's the issue? Although, in the interest of protecting end collectors, if PCGS gets rid of "first strike" and other special time or quantity limited labels on "hot items" then I would be happy instead of cry. However, availability changes and aftermarket price changes from deep pockets making the scoop is still the real issue.
See where I'm coming from now?
My Coin Blog
My Toned Lincoln Registry Set
As for Legend, it seems to be part of a long running war against moderns, and modern dealers. I remember when she was on this forum and every pro modern, ultra-modern thread got her ire up. She often actively flamed here against the many honest, passionate collectors of said coins. So it is not surprising where the sides are lining up.
Yes, things could have been better, but I still don't understand the outrage. Banned for life? For what? For trying to make a profit? Is it all that different from what online dealers have done here on the forum, offering to buy new mint issues above issue price, a day or a week before the gates open? Should those forum member dealers also be banned for life? Isn't it basically the same thing, albeit entirely over the Internet?
<< <i>Yes, things could have been better, but I still don't understand the outrage. Banned for life? For what? For trying to make a profit? >>
Its the way in which it was carried out.
If you didn't witness in person, or read all the personal accounts or news stories of what went on, you cannot understand.
<< <i>
<< <i>Yes, things could have been better, but I still don't understand the outrage. Banned for life? For what? For trying to make a profit? >>
Its the way in which it was carried out. If you didn't witness in person, or read all the personal accounts or news stories of what went on, you cannot understand. >>
So, where do we draw the line on acceptable bending of the rules in procuring inventory? Do we include those who use family to order from the mint when there are household limits. Do we include buying ANA memberships for church members to get in line at the show?
I don't buy the "it's a modern issue problem." It could easily have been 10,000 pristine Morgans recently discovered in a Mint vault.
Government is the great fiction through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else. - Bastiat
<< <i>So, where do we draw the line on acceptable bending of the rules in procuring inventory? Do we include those who use family to order from the mint when there are household limits. Do we include buying ANA memberships for church members to get in line at the show? >>
There are quite a few smart forum members in this community.
Seems like a fair way would be a "random drawing" on site. One entry with registration. Just couple it with buying procedures ensuring the persons identity, their own funds being used to procure the item, and I believe you will have the answer.
You cant prevent that item from being resold later, however, it will eliminate the proxies from the line that cant afford to complete the transaction with their own funds.
Initial sales by the Mint should be through official Mint outlets only. Sales by the Mint at secondary non Mint outlets should occur 30 days after the start date. Never did understand this coin show release concept. By the way, when did the release at coin show thing start?
<< <i>I don't understand why people are so angry about this. This is a mint to demand issue. Everyone that wants one will eventually be able to get one. No, not everyone may not get a fancy label, but less than 5% on this forum have any interest in collecting (vs. flipping for a profit) those labels.
As for Legend, it seems to be part of a long running war against moderns, and modern dealers. I remember when she was on this forum and every pro modern, ultra-modern thread got her ire up. She often actively flamed here against the many honest, passionate collectors of said coins. So it is not surprising where the sides are lining up.
Yes, things could have been better, but I still don't understand the outrage. Banned for life? For what? For trying to make a profit? Is it all that different from what online dealers have done here on the forum, offering to buy new mint issues above issue price, a day or a week before the gates open? Should those forum member dealers also be banned for life? Isn't it basically the same thing, albeit entirely over the Internet? >>
the HOF coins weren't so bad, but similar things happened?
Is it any so different? Well, when the scale of the efforts are considered then, yes, it is different there. Also, when one considers this can continue with deep pockets upping their efforts, yes it is different.
However, I will cop to it and say, on the little scale, the efforts are the same. I am as guilty as the next guy in that there are friends and family networks (I have none of those now and only had 1 before.)
It's now Officially Out Of Hand. That's the problem. And with no control, It Can Get Hugely Worse at the hands of deep pockets.
The system needs to change.
I still maintain a lottery won't work as paid lottery ticket buyers can skew the odds even more against the individuals.
As for "using own funds," money can simply be given off site. Those actors' names are in someone's hands who hired them. Theft? They have their verified info, right? It's easy to track them down and arrest them. So, money can be given off site and the coin picked up off site. That is also not a solution.
In this instance, I agree with the general message -- these dealers should be banned for life from ANA shows and professional organizations they have embarassed.
But, I could have done with less of the throwing of stones and insults. The comment about persons looking as if they came out from under rocks was particularly ironic -- the few times I have seen Laura at shows she always looks sloppily dressed and somewhat vagabond-ish (that's a glass house you're living in there). Furthermore, someone with her lack of spelling skills and writing skills should not be throwing around diagnoses of "dislexia" -- a comment which, in all of its intended glory, made her look all the more foolish.
Carry on...
-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
My sets: [290+ horse coins] :: [France Sowers] :: [Colorful world copper] :: [Beautiful world coins]
-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
<< <i>What happened to being on the US Mint mailing list and being a US Mint customer? Period. The demand here is GREED and flipping coins and that is the problem. Period. Deep pockets and the TPGs Inserts only create an illusion that makes it worse for all. >>
Will PCGS be offering, "First Strike" label inserts for these?
<< <i>KISS
Initial sales by the Mint should be through official Mint outlets only. Sales by the Mint at secondary non Mint outlets should occur 30 days after the start date. Never did understand this coin show release concept. By the way, when did the release at coin show thing start? >>
The Mint used to have a policy that "If an item has a household order limit, then it can't be sold at a sales counter. Once the household order limit is removed, it can."
This changed with the 2013 Reverse Proof Buffalo. After its sales success at the ANA last year, Acting Director Peterson was quoted in the press as saying it was a good thing to have the amount of sales. I never saw this "paid line standers" coming and I wouldn't have predicted t would be this bad this fast. This is why I think it will get worse from here. Deep Pockets can do a lot with even "unlimited" mintage coins minted through the end of 2014.
Also, even back for the 2013 RP Buffs, I was complaining it was not a "fair distribution" as it sold only to those who were able to show up at a location in person. The mint responded here with lightning fast ship times... true 5 star service I wish they would have now and into the future even if in person sales are halted.
Anyway, the first step to righting the wrongs is to go back to online only sales. All suggestions may not work, but all suggestions welcome. Consider it crowd sourcing a solution to the problem.
JakeSherlock - if you are reading this - thanks for the disclosure that you are into marketing and having a good show that's well attended. Hmmmm..... how may of those in line were later on the bourse floor? How many also bought from other sellers on the bourse floor? If they are paid to stand in line, but not required to visit the other dealers... do they go home? Go in? What percentage of those paid line standers turned into ANA show visitors elsewhere in the show? If I changed 1 person it is all worth it? Well, for life changing things, sure.... but would changing 1 line stander into a collector be worth the rest of the junk and the injustice of paid line standers? Not to me. It would only be worth it if most all had mutinied and turned into buying them for themselves and giving the other people's money back to the people paying them. This is not likely to happen now or in the future.
If it is a collectable, well, that's what makes a collectable, limited availability. Just because everybody can get on line and order one doesn't mean everybody is going to get one.
It doesn't work both ways, bullion is bullion and everybody can get some. Collectables are limited in their scope both in number and availability, not everybody can get them. Unless..........
IMZ corp has been banned in the USA because they make AK parts and rifles, I wish I had a pile of AKs right now for sure. Common rifle that will soon be worth huge money in the right hands. I am sure the people who can afford to speculate are buying in, I would love to buy an AK today but I can't and if I want one later I guess I'll pay up. I guess it just isn't fair a little like bullion that some folks see as being a collectable.
<< <i>I still maintain a lottery won't work as paid lottery ticket buyers can skew the odds even more against the individuals >>
I don't know why you avoid the simple answer.
ONE entry per paid registration, linked to your name, address, etc.
COUPLED with purchasing requirements, CC in your own name, no cash
<< <i>
<< <i>Yes a fiasco. From my understanding the mint is not legally allowed to hold an actual lottery to determine who can buy one.
However they should be able to do what I have seen many sports teams do to orderly sell playoff game tickets.
They give out wristbands to everyone who lines up. Each wristband has a different number.
Then there is a random generator to determine at which number to start selling to.
This causes no rush to get wristbands. There is no first in line is first to buy. And everyone who shows up has an equal chance to be the first one to buy. >>
As posted in others threads, those with deep pockets can fill the wristband lines with enough people such that the odds heavily favor them getting the tickets. Also, there is an off chance no collector gets the and the paid line standers get them all.
Lotteries won't work for the above reasons.
Go back to online only for hot items. >>
Government is the great fiction through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else. - Bastiat
<< <i>If the ANA wants to make things better and safer for both the dealers and actual coin collectors, they should no longer allow the US Mint to have new products released at the show. >>
I will never again attend an ANA sponsored show if the US Mint is continued to be allowed to release new products. As an ANA member I have to ask the ANA why do you allow the US Mint to release new products at your shows when you know that in the past the same greedy dealers have stuffed the lines to purchase US Mint new releases causing serious issues. The ANA needs to take a hard look at this issue, otherwise attendance from dealers and collectors will surely go down.
<< <i>Folks, these are not a limited mintage issue. >>
True - but we all know at some point the US Mint cuts off what they produce, based on demand, so late arrivals sometimes don't get anything.
Also, some like to collect labels. Maybe not show labels, but maybe FS or ER labels. Early orders receive their coins quicker. They are able to get those labels.
<< <i> Don't complain about the guy in front of you at the buffet taking the last two steaks unless there are no more steaks on the grill. >>
You will complain if you are hungry. And don't try it in Jersey
To classify and denigrate all modern collectors as junk is shameless. To each their own.
"This fiasco does NOT help our hobby in any way. I will debate this with anyone. How many people will be burnt buy buying these coins? We will LOSE more future collectors then what we could have gained. Your not a genuis to buy an overhyped coin thats brand new and the value is soley based upon the holder!"
and replace it with:
"This fiasco does NOT help our hobby in any way. I will debate this with anyone. How many people will be burnt by buying these coins? We will LOSE more future collectors than we could have gained. You are not a genuis to buy an overhyped coin that is brand new, where value is based solely upon the holder!"
Indian Head $10 Gold Set Album
<< <i>Her marketing ploy cost $10M. Litpon's only cost $100K. Maybe she got out thought.
To classify and denigrate all modern collectors as junk is shameless. To each their own. >>
I think it is comically absurd for you to compare the marketing cost of the 1st 1794 Dollar struck, to the marketing cost of the 1st 2014 Gold Kennedy Half graded.
"Everything is on its way to somewhere. Everything." - George Malley, Phenomenon
http://www.american-legacy-coins.com
People with dyslexia reverse or mix up letters visually. They get things backwards in other words. Buying the slab or label instead of the coin is getting things backwards.
I thought it was a clever joke on her part , that appears to have sailed over a few heads . Some coin weenies might be too literal minded to actually recognize a joke .
<< <i> Don't complain about the guy in front of you at the buffet taking the last two steaks unless there are no more steaks on the grill. >>
You will complain if you are hungry. And don't try it in Jersey
And I believe it is this hunger for profit that not only drove the actions at the ANA but is also driving a lot of the complaining. This has been my whole point in these threads.
Government is the great fiction through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else. - Bastiat
<< <i>People with dyslexia reverse or mix up letters visually. They get things backwards in other words. Buying the slab or label instead of the coin is getting things backwards.
I thought it was a clever joke on her part , that appears to have sailed over a few heads . Some coin weenies might be too literal minded to actually recognize a joke .
Or maybe that they thought the coin cost $1,000.00 instead of $100,000 ...
In 1904, they managed to mint over 6 million double eagles.
Showing up with only 500 per day is a joke. They could have showed up with 50,000 and let everyone have their fill, and still made a profit for the taxpayers.
Everyone likes easy money: Collectors, dealers, homeless, flippers ...
And that was the situation the US Mint created.
<< <i>I would have to blame the US Mint.
In 1904, they managed to mint over 6 million double eagles.
Showing up with only 500 per day is a joke. They could have showed up with 50,000 and let everyone have their fill, and still made a profit for the taxpayers.
Everyone likes easy money: Collectors, dealers, homeless, flippers ...
And that was the situation the US Mint created. >>
Whether it was 500 or 50,000 wouldn't have addressed the order of sale issue in the secondary market. While the Mint didn't label the coins in the order of sale, a situation was created where they could be labeled which created the opportunity.