The third die - has anyone studied how long collars live?
MsMorrisine
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How many strikes were obtained from the first collars ever used in the USA? And later collars? And modern collars?
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The Logan and McCloskey book on Half Dimes identified 11 collars used for the capped bust half dimes.
This helped establish the emission order. D. Mark Smith [and our own MrHalfDime, see below] were contributors on this also.
I suppose the usable lifetime of a collar may also depend on the size of the coin.
1878 VAM 6 Morgan dollar is known with three different reed counts (179, 189, 193). The obverse/reverse combination is one of the more common 1878 8TF die marriages.
1878 VAM 224 is the only Morgan dollar struck with 168 reeds.
Some 1921 Morgan dollars were struck from a collar with 157 reeds -- VAM 4, 13, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 44. Of these only VAM 44 is rare ($1800 in MS62 recently). The VAM 44 obverse and reverse are also known with a normally reeded collar as VAM 45. I have seen an early die state of the VAM 29 die pair with a normal collar (and encouraged the owner to pursue a new VAM listing).
How to interpret this? Well, in 1878, the mint was having lots of problems going through dies, especially with the 8TF design struck during the first few weeks. One could reasonably assume they also burned through collar dies. Assuming that in 1921 only one 157-reed collar was used to strike all 8 die pairs of the infrequently reeded coins, one would conclude that the collar lasted much longer than the obverse and reverse dies. RWB's "From Mine to Mint" discusses manufacture of collar dies, but I don't know off hand if they are the same hardened die steel as the obverse and reverse dies when they go into service. If they are, then it would stand to reason that since the impact of the planchet on the collar die isn't as much as it is on the obverse and reverse dies, the collar would last longer.
Other collars with overlapping, out-of-phase reeds are known in the Morgan dollar series, but it's possible that these were taken out of service prematurely if the defect was noticed.
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I'm not aware of any statistics that
list collar life.....I believe that collars
last much much longer that Dies,
although they are known to crack too.
There is an error type that's called a
'collar cud', where a chip or larger part
of the collar,from the inside edge,
chips off, leaving a 'cud' either between
the reeds of a coin (most common on
2002 Kennedy Halves), or a larger
area that looks broadstruck due to the
last of metal in that collar area that
striking pressure forces outward.
My intuitive feeling is that reeded collars would wear out faster than plain collars, but I have no idea how many strikes that would be in either case.
TD
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<< <i>What year did the Mint start using collars? >>
Most likely from its inception, but by 1794 at the latest.
(OK...ready for the fireworks!
QN
Go to Early United States Coins - to order the New "Early United States Half Dollar Vol. 1 / 1794-1807" book or the 1st new Bust Quarter book!
i don't know if they were used for US coinage (1793-current respectively) but we should confirm or deny the use of castaing machines as well. i'm not up for defending this today but just came to my
mind as i read this thread cuz i though i remembered those machines being used to put edge devices on at the very least, CBH.
but i'm having some off days (wearing me out!!!) trying to learn about ports, forwarding, firewalls security, udp, tcp, routing etc. something i've been putting off for years because of the vast amount of
info involved and lack of an expert available to me nearly on-demand. my brain is also currently tied up studying the new technology surrounding cameras to see how i can further improve numismatic
photography on a shoestring budget and a narrow band of experience. the nikon d800 with 36+mp and the sony alpha ar7 36+mp sure look to be pretty amazing.
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This helped establish the emission order. D. Mark Smith was a contributor on this also."
By all means, the Logan/McCloskey half dime reference ("Federal Half Dimes 1792 - 1837") is one of the best resources for information on the use of collars in the early mint. Pages 1-78 of the L/M half dime reference should be read closely for this information.
When the Logan/McCloskey book was being written, Russ Logan quickly recognized the futility of attempting to assign an emission sequence, or order of production, for the minting of the various die marriages. Nonetheless, he knew that the very basis of the new numbering sequence depended upon an accurate emission sequence, and his attempts to determine this purely from a detailed study of the obverse and reverse dies, alone, was not yielding the desired results. At about this time, Russ and John learned of the studies being conducted by my good friend Mark Smith on the third dies - the collars. Russ realized that the answers he sought were to be found on the collars, and in the research that Mark had been conducting. I was with Mark at a summer ANA meeting of the JRCS when Russ Logan and John McCloskey asked Mark to collaborate with them in the writing of the half dime book. I have never seen Mark so animated and elated; he was truly humbled and greatly honored that these leading numismatists and authors had deemed him a worthy researcher. Mark and I developed a system of measuring the diameter of half dimes of all die marriages, and recording the diameters as a function of die state (and grade). I still maintain the database with all of the measurements, and continue to add to it. Sadly, Mark passed away before the half dime book was published, but his pioneering research into the third dies was what made the entire emission sequence possible. The L/M half dime reference was dedicated to the memory of D. Mark Smith, a truly professional and competent researcher, as well as a good friend.
Thank you for noting the significant contributions of Mark Smith. He would be pleased to think that his work continues to enlighten collectors.
Thanks for sharing the story on how the collaboration evolved. This is so cool.
I reread the Emission Order section of the Logan-McCloskey book just now.
It is great how this was enough to capture the entire emission order,
and the observation that the diameter increased with later emissions from a collar is quite compelling.
Clearly there was a lot of work to take all those measurements and work with them.
I'm curious:
1. How many measurements on each coin did you and Mark use, and in what orientation?
2. Do you think the same method would help narrow down the emission order for Capped Bust Dimes?
3. Do you know if the collar for the new(ish)ly discovered 1835 LM-12 has been identified?
My notes say the best of the first 3 specimens was EF but its edge reeding was very weak, so maybe it's not possible yet.
All I know is that it occurs after 1836 LM-7 which was the last observed for collar #9. (As I'm sure you're well aware).
1. How many measurements on each coin did you and Mark use, and in what orientation? We finally settled on two diameter measurements for each coin, one in the North-South orientation, the other in the East-West orientation. The precise method used was the subject of many conversations and debates, and must be a subject for another time.
2. Do you think the same method would help narrow down the emission order for Capped Bust Dimes? I do not see why not, as the method of manufacture was the same.
3. Do you know if the collar for the new(ish)ly discovered 1835 LM-12 has been identified? I would have to re-read Edgar Souder's article on the discovery of the 1835 LM-12 to see if the collar was identified. I am not aware of the collar without further research.
If you have more time later and would like to elaborate further, I'm all ears.